Classes and Courses

[Ben Fuller]

At GMSKS I was struck by the large number of people signing up for and attending classes not just by the headliners but also by the various instructors mostly from Maine. I saw coaches like Steve Maynard assisted by John Carmody trying to coach 20 or more. Small groups were hour long sessions at the most. These people were trying to present in an hour what they usually do in a weekend limited to 4-6 to 1 ratios.

Along with this is the fact that the Maine based more advanced offerings of Maine Island Kayak, Maine Sport etc. are having trouble filling. Putting on my Maine Sport hat for a minute, I know that we have had to cancel ICE/IDW's, advanced stroke clinics etc. things that were not a problems a year or two ago.

So what do we think is happening? People seem to want coaching, but not enough to really commit some time to it. Do the coaches have a product that no one wants? How can it be modified to be better?

[bethany]

Kayaking certainly became trendy for a time like say, rollerblading, and it's possible that there are just a glut of beginners in the waters, or that the trend is waning? Or potentially the economy is part of the equation...?

--b

[Suz]

Ben,

I observed the same thing and I wonder what is behind it. As you know, NSPN organizes classes with guest instructors such as Karen Knight and Bob Foote. In June, for the first time we organized classes with Maine Island Kayak Company. All of this years offerings (almost 60 class slots in Karen's and Bob' classes and 26 with MIKCO) have filled. In prior years, NSPN offered classes with Derek Hutchinson and Nigel Foster. Both instructors were unable to fit us into their schedule this year so far.

Here are my random thoughts on the subject...

Perhaps NSPN club members figure on taking instruction within the club because it is easy, someone organizes it and you take the class with people you know.

Perhaps because the club offers instruction, that discourages people from searching out instruction and therefore pursue more advanced instruction from the outfitters.

Do people think they are good because they can roll, paddle in bumpy water and therefore don't need instruction?

I also wonder if perhaps people don't feel the need to improve their skills once they get to a point where they have a certain comfort level in the water. They can pick and choose the days they go out so that in general they paddle in conditions where they do not have to stretch.

As a skier, I have observed for years that parents will bring the kids into ski school but never take a class themselves. They go up and down the same slopes, enjoy the scenery and being outside. It seems that only a very small percentage of people feel the need to improve their skills by taking classes. They just keep doing the same things that they have always done and by the end of the season, they get a bit faster, can turn a bit better and ski a longer day.

Last year Sunday River started giving away UPPER LEVEL lessons with hotel stays, just to start exposing people to instruction. They have always done this with the entry level first class through their Mobil partnership... 3 fill ups and a free 1/2 day lesson with equipment. Obviously the difference with ski areas vs. kayak outfitters is that there is no incentive for the outfitters to give away entry level stuff to introduce new kayakers to kayaking nor is there any reason for them to give away the upper level stuff to show people how they would benefit from instruction. The ski areas benefit because once you’re at the mountain, you may spend the night, eat lunch, dinner, buy a hat...

Personally, I realized very early on that learning to kayak after age 40 would be a very slow process if I tried to do it on my own. I felt that there was WAY TOO MUCH to learn through trial and error. Also figured that the ocean is not a forgiving task master so in order to play where the water isn't flat and the rocks are hard, I better learn how to keep my boat upright and to find my way home at night. So I seek out instruction to help me with those things. I find instructors that I can go back to regularly. I find instructors who remember me from class to class. Instructors who begin to understand my learning style so that they know exactly how they need to present a concept to me for me to get it. I find instructors so that I don’t have to spend as much time unlearning things as learning new things.

My concern is that if people like Maine Sport and Maine Island Kayak Company are having difficulties filling their advanced offerings, what will people do for instruction when they close their doors?

Suzanne

[Dee Hall]

Problems that are most certainly affecting the outfitter/instructors:

1. The economy. Talk to anybody who owns a small business. For that matter talk to anybody. Half of my family members are without jobs or have been seeking full time employment for over a year. Recreational and other non-necessary activities (yes, I am afraid that kayaking is one) are going to be the first things cut from a restricted budget.

2. Maine. Without question it is a beautiful place to kayak in. It is also a minimum of 2 hours to get to these places of instruction. Since most classes start very early in the morning, this means getting up obscenely early in the morning to get there. Another option is staying over the night before (see item 1 on the economy.)

3. Variety of instruction. I don't think that I am alone is preferring to get instruction from a variety of instructors. For me the includes Charles River Canoe and Kayak, Karen Knight, Bob Foote, Nigel Foster, and Armand Mickey-Santos.

4. The increasing popularity of Greenland paddling. Some day a real smart instructor in the area is going to come up with a bunch of classes for this style of kayaking.

I am almost certainly in the minority in this reason, but I know that I am not alone:

1. Heavy-handed criticism of NSPN's offering instruction and trips by Mikco-trained paddlers. This persistent lobbying and attempts at guilt trips has turned me off to Mikco. As a result, I will be persuing my BCU training in Rhode Island.

[Guest Jon Rose]

Having taken on-water lessons at GMSKS (that whole weekend was a wonderful experience!), taken a class with Karen Knight yesterday and looking forward to her rolling class, and having been in several group classes last season, I too have been struck by what seems to be a huge number of people at the beginning stages of sea kayaking, me included. But once you get up to needing BCU 3 and 4 Star Training, just to take one type of learning track, well, then the numbers taking classes drops significantly and so do the offerings. This is ironic because as I advance my need for instruction, or pointers anyway, does not diminish at all. So I try to be resourceful. NSPN can and does fill this need with peer skill sessions and outside instructors. That's great! I also find I have to go over to Peekskill NY, Atlantic Kayak Tours, for 3 Star. And Tom Berge told me he would get together most any intermediate or advanced instruction you would want if you call him. And Jeff Brent, the new owner of Country Canoeist (which will be in the same location in Dunbarton NH and called Stem to Stern after August 1st) offers 3 Star instruction next weekend. So the offerings, while more limited, seem to still be out there.

[wernermaas]

I started paddling last year by taking Fundamentals I and II at Micko. Tom Bergh and colleagues did a tremendous job, and really got me hooked. When I asked him how to proceed, Tom suggested I became a member of NSPN in order to find paddling partners and to learn at the skill sessions.

From Tom’s fundamentals, the patience of Alex L.(who taught me how to roll) and the mentoring by fellow NSPN paddlers, I am slowly starting to understand a bit about the nuances of safe and fun sea kayaking.

From the various benefits that NSPN offers, the one that stands out on the educational side is the ability, as a club, to organize tailored instruction. I’ve seen some of the south-shore offerings listed (Knight and Foote) and I personally immensely enjoyed the Hermit Island NSPN/MICKO weekend. Somehow taking classes with a group of people that you know and that are of similar skill levels, enhances the teaching experience, and a familiar teacher that recognizes your progress is a big plus.

I can’t predict my progression, but I know that I can use some advanced training a few times per year. All the better and more fun if we can organize this through NSPN. I hope you guys will continue organizing more training weekends like that, it supports our instructors and it jives with what the club is about (at least according to the website: “education and safety on the water in an enjoyable, social setting.”)

[djlewis]

>1. Heavy-handed criticism of NSPN's offering instruction and

>trips by Mikco-trained paddlers. This persistent lobbying

>and attempts at guilt trips has turned me off to Mikco. As

>a result, I will be persuing my BCU training in Rhode

>Island.

Don't let the messengers ruin the message. MIKCo and Tom Bergh are truly a New England (if not world) treasure... of not only kayaking skill, knowledge and teaching expertise, but also integrity, sociability and gentlemanly manners. Try them!

--David.

[cathyfoley]

I think it has a lot to do with what people are looking for out of kayaking. It's a very small percentage of sea kayakers who really aspire to be at the level of BCU 4 and 5. It's my belief that most people want to enjoy "fair weather" kayaking safely and are content with that. So they take a few basic courses and in NSPN, attend skills sessions. The combination of those two things probably fulfill the desires of the majority of recreational sea kayakers.

[Ben Fuller]

Interesting questions arising.

It makes sense that it is easier for North Shore area people not to drive to Maine for a weekend of instruction when the club can arrange custom instruction. And there are enough guaranteed high grade rock star instructors out there to fill that need.

What I don't have a feel for is how many instructors, club members are either BCU or ACA certified. Its not so much the credential, its the instructional and coaching techniques that have been developed over time. It is a major time commitment to learn this: 5 days in several sessions at least. These are some of the classes that are not filling: probably too much for someone who does not want to teach professionally?

And I know that some NSPN folks have done guide courses to better understand trip leader needs. Would it make sense for some of the folks that offer guide courses to develop some specifically geared to club trip leading?

Mikco is now doing baseless custom work while Tom finds a new home. Other outfitters have bases that could be used for clubs.... I remember discussing this with Buddy and Peter when they were up here doing the Guide course this past spring. Is this the wave of the future?

Would it make sense for the instructional community to develop shorter courses that could be delivered as part of a trip, say an afternoons worth? All course now are predicated on a full day.

It used to be that outfitters could give away a days course with every boat sold. But that was some years ago. It was really good because people were taught efficient and safe paddling. Margins now preclude this.

This all is meat to feed into the ACA's curriculum development where New England is pretty well represented.

Keep the ideas coming.

[hfcalling]

I'm new but want to take classes and courses. I venture out of Marblehead harbor and am steadily improving. Practiced wet exits....then did one for real after meeting up with swells, surf and wind! My intent is to get better and better and jaunt around the world kayaking !?!?

So many sites, outfits, courses! Suggestions anyone can make? I like intense and to the point instruction with small groups and lots of time!

Harry

[Guest guest]

Check out the "fast track" offerings at Maine Island Kayak... covers a lot at a fast pace.

[Guest guest]

The heavy-handed whining and hand wringing notwithstanding, MIKCO offers some of the finest training and instructors in the area. Many of the paddlers who train there have developed excellent skills and tend to try to improve those skills constantly. Some of these knowledgeable paddlers will, on occasion, try to pass on some of the knowledge and experience they've gained. Seems like that shouldn't be a bad thing.

[bethany]

Local, shorter classes (as well as, not instead of cool immersive longer ones) or ones that met certain evenings of the week every week for a period, etc. might indeed be helpful. I know I always have a limited number of weekends I can devote to paddling and then its a toss up of how many I will focus on learning skills and how many I want to just get out and paddle somewhere!

I think paddling clubs offer a great place for teachers and outfitters from anywhere to come have customers no matter where they are from, as no base is needed, the club offers organizational skills and ready students who provide their own boats.

--b

[Dee Hall]

I never meant to imply (and re-reading my message, I don't see any implication there) that Mikco isn't a top-notch teaching company. I have heard nothing but good things about them.

I am saying that a successful business must meet the needs of the marketplace. The four components of marketing are: product, place, price, and promotion. The product has to be appealing, the place has to be convenient, the price has to be competitive, and the promotion has to be effective. My message was addressing three of these. In the case of promotion, you must reach your customers without annoying them. Criticizing how they spend their recreational time can be more than annoying. I realize that Mikco may not have done this, but some of their devoted fans have.

-Dee

[christopherG]

With all due respect, Dee, you are way out-of-line in one or two of your assertions or suppositions. You may be a really competent kayaker; but you are not an authority -- not yet, at any rate.

The economy may be poor; but folks still buying boats: in fact, last year was great for the distributors and dealers!

Maine is not far away at all – especially if you get up early (it takes me about an hour and a quarter to get to Eastern Promenade, the put-in; then the brief paddle over to Peaks Island warms you up for the day, doesn’t it?) Tom does start at crack of dawn, if you’re coming in from elsewhere.

A variety of instruction, you say? Yes, I can see that some might like that and I consider it perfectly valid; but I am not aware that Armand Santos has given instruction during the past couple of years, for one thing, and, for another, when you find a really fine teacher, don’t you try to hang onto that person, like mad?

“The increasing popularity of Greenland paddling”? What are you talking about? Interest in elegant cedar paddles comes and goes, like any other aspect of the sport. Let us see how many of those who have recently “discovered” traditional paddling are still doing it in a year or two’s time, shall we? “Some day a real smart instructor in the area…” You demonstrate how little you know of local instructors, then: ever heard of Attenborough and Raleigh, who were offering tailored Greenland instruction years ago when I started paddling? They are almost founding members of this club. The shame is that they no longer do this: can you imagine why? Not enough students willing to put their money where their mouths are, I wonder?

“Heavy-handed criticism of NSPN’s offering instruction and trips by MIKCo-trained paddlers”…I don’t really understand you here. If you mean to imply that the two above symptoms have turned you off MIKCo: fine by me. Regarding offering tuition through the club: you attended the last General Meeting and could have spoken your mind. Regarding trips by MIKCo-trained paddlers, I have no idea at what you are driving. “Persistent lobbying” might be some satisfied customers broadcasting their gladness on the message board? Perfectly legitimate. Classes with MIKCo? A recent “group buy” was organized and sold out fully and produced a bunch of very satisfied customers. NSPN had no official finger in organizing this.

Go pursue your training in Rhode Island – watch the traffic: it’ll probably take you a minimum of two hours to get there!

Sincerely,

Relatively-novice paddler Christopher

[christopherG]

Oh, dear: sadly, Dee, you do not express yourself very well and I do not understand your implication.

You talk in circles without mentioning specifics. WHAT is your problem with MIKCo? The fact that you have heard much good about them comes from this very message board, where some of us enthuse openly about their teaching and philosophy. What is this "criticism of the way..." "...spends their spare time"? What on earth has this got to do with things?

The fact remains that MIKCo are in a and if club members would investigate their offerings and training, then we would have a of more competent sea-kayakers among us...period.

[alcoons]

>Oh, dear: sadly, Dee, you do not express yourself very well

>and I do not understand your implication.

Christopher.

This type of comment is inappropriate on any message board and particularly a club board such as ours. Much more is accomplished when we post comments about "ideas" rather than "people." There is nothing wrong with disagreement, but there is something wrong with disrespect, particularly in a club that goes out of its way to accommodate all of our individual quirks. Perhaps an apology is in order.

Al

[Guest guest]

>This type of comment is inappropriate on any message board

>and particularly a club board such as ours. Much more is

>accomplished when we post comments about "ideas" rather than

>"people." There is nothing wrong with disagreement, but

>there is something wrong with disrespect, particularly in a

>club that goes out of its way to accommodate all of our

>individual quirks. Perhaps an apology is in order.

>

>Al

Agreed.

Dee, Tom's number is listed on their website (www.maineislandkayak.com) if you'd like to make that apology via phone instead of email.

Jose.

[Dee Hall]

>With all due respect, Dee, you are way out-of-line in one or

>two of your assertions or suppositions. You may be a really

>competent kayaker; but you are not an authority -- not yet,

>at any rate.

>

Again, I re-read my message and see nothing that says I am claiming to be a competent kayaker or an authority.

>The economy may be poor; but folks still buying boats:

>in fact, last year was great for the distributors and

>dealers!

>

Actually, one of the primary dealers on the North Shore has said that the 17' sea kayaking market is dead. Perhaps if one is selling Explorers at a rate much higher than is being delivered, the market seems great.

>Maine is not far away at all – especially if you get up

>early (it takes me about an hour and a quarter to get to

>Eastern Promenade, the put-in...

>

We drive to Kennebunkport every other week to pick up my stepson. It takes an hour and a half from Beverly. We live closer to Maine than most of the paddlers in NSPN, and Portland is quite a bit farther than Kennebunkport. Perhaps you are speeding?

>A variety of instruction, you say? Yes, I can see that some

>might like that and I consider it perfectly valid; but I am

>not aware that Armand Santos has given instruction

>during the past couple of years, for one thing, and, for

>another, when you find a really fine teacher, don’t you

>try to hang onto that person, like mad?

>

Armand taught two surfing classes in the fall of 2002. I still like a variety of teachers. That is a personal preference, however, finding a really fine teacher that works well with your ability to learn often takes a variety of teachers.

>“The increasing popularity of Greenland paddling”? What are

>you talking about?...

>

I haven't been on a trip without someone using a Greenland paddle since I have been paddling with NSPN. Usually, I am in the minority with my "Eurospoon".

>“Heavy-handed criticism of NSPN’s offering instruction and

>trips by MIKCo-trained paddlers”…I don’t really understand

>you here. If you mean to imply that the two above symptoms

>have turned you off MIKCo: fine by me. Regarding offering

>tuition through the club: you attended the last General

>Meeting and could have spoken your mind. Regarding trips by

>MIKCo-trained paddlers, I have no idea at what you are

>driving. “Persistent lobbying” might be some satisfied

>customers broadcasting their gladness on the message board?

>Perfectly legitimate. Classes with MIKCo? A recent “group

>buy” was organized and sold out fully and produced a bunch

>of very satisfied customers. NSPN had no official finger in

>organizing this.

>

I have no problem with any relationship between NSPN and MICKo or any other outfitter, in fact, I think it would be a great thing. I have no problem with statisfied customers spreading their good news, in fact, I think it should be encouraged. I strongly disagree with people saying that NSPN should not team with other talented instructors because it "competes with the local outfitters". I also disagree with people saying that club trips should be led by BCU 5 star certified paddlers only because these are the only competent paddlers in the ocean and that they could be sued and lose their house if they don't have these certifications.

These are my opinions which are no less valid then the opinions of others on this message board. Mr. Fuller was looking for ideas. I tried to provide some.

[Michael_Crouse]

Ok everyone first off lets all take a deep breath and remember that we are arguing about kayaking. Remember this is the thing that we all do for fun. It always seems odd that we can argue about things like this.

At GOMSKS I had a chance to take a short class (2 hours with six people) from Tom Bergh. I thought it was a great class. Someone I know described Tom's style as being similiar to Nigel Foster, very reserved, laid back, and thoughtful. WIll I take a lesson from Tom in the future? yes. Will I also take a class from Nigel Foster, Mickey (Armand), Bob Foote, etc... yes.

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[rick stoehrer]

dee -

concerning either your blithely unawares or merely inflammatory assertion;

it's a club with 400 or so members and as you will recall we all sat down in december or so and established committee's to review and where warranted by the committes, recommend alterations in our bylaws and activities to the board.

so...heavy handed? as a club, we do things by committee's and then make recommendations to a board. seems to me, that process alone would negate any heavy handed action. there is a strong argument to be made that the processes were established to prevent any heavy handed actions of a few to influence the whole.

so if you are disastisfied with something, have a voice on a committee. you are already a member of the trip leader committee and are active in skills sessions. that's great! it's exactly what the club needs - paddlers of all levels, "passing forward" their skills.

but that kinda sounds like what you seem upset about in the first place....so what's the problem?

[Dee Hall]

>Agreed.

>

>Dee, Tom's number is listed on their website

>(www.maineislandkayak.com) if you'd like to make that

>apology via phone instead of email.

>

>Jose.

Again, I re-read my posting and find no disparaging remarks about MIKCo or Tom in it. However, I have to admit that religious-like fanaticism has always made me very uncomfortable. Perhaps that is why I have reacted as I have to the strong opinions of others.

[Dee Hall]

I'm not sure that heavy handed is the best term, but it is the only one I can think of. A few people have created much larger controversies that have driven a large number of NSPN's volunteers away. These volunteers just want to have fun helping others to have fun. They don't want to deal with politics or agendas or restricting the choices of others. That is what bothers me.

[rick stoehrer]

okay, so you concede that heavy handed was not what you meant?

help me understand restrictive. huh? do what you want. post a sng and paddle to your hearts content! it's the foundation of the club! who said you can't?

the club is based on paddlers helping paddlers and that's great! it's what we all enjoy and love doing - we all love sharing our passions with folks that feel the same way! can anyone disagree with that? on this we're probably all united, yeah?

so what's the issue with certification and politics? i don't remember seeing any lately and we have committee's established at the general meeting to handle the nuts/bolts of the club's "vision thing" (as liz n. puts so aptly!) is your gripe that there are committee's and a board to review the club's "vision thing"? as a reader, i don't know, you aren't being terribly clear.

and in the end, who cares? get a boat on the water and paddle. it isn't worth arguing about while the sun is shining and the water is calling.

[Ben Fuller]

Apologize to all hands that this thread got a little hot. I was mostly trying to seek some ideas. I deliberately tried to avoid mentioning outfitters and programs although some of that snuck in as I needed a few examples.

As a member of ACA's course development group, I see that the ACA itself is working on creating content for the rapidly growing RTK community and there is resistance to the some of the more advanced skill courses, and training endorsements. The thing that really concerns me is developing and keeping a cadre of really good instructors, and to do so these folks need customers.

I recall that when I became an instructor my Nordkapp had close to twenty years of bashing about on it. I thought it would be easy, but I'd many nasty habits and did not have much idea about how to coach.

As I said previously, lets keep the ideas flowing and I will make sure that some of the outfitters and instructors see this thread.