Cold Water Immersion video on youtube

[Lbeale]

http://www.nasbla.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=1

Saw this video being passed around on the different surfski message boards--description of what happens (stages) to the body's responses during immersion in cold water--

If you have some time, watch it (10 minutes)--you may want to pass it on to paddlers who think wearing a life jacket is a bother--les

[Gcosloy]

http://www.nasbla.org/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=1

Saw this video being passed around on the different surfski message boards--description of what happens (stages) to the body's responses during immersion in cold water--

If you have some time, watch it (10 minutes)--you may want to pass it on to paddlers who think wearing a life jacket is a bother--les

Interesting video! However it seemed like it was more of a promo for PFD's than a comprehensive study of the dangers of cold-water immersion. While they did discuss and demonstrate "uncontrollable breathing" and the effects on motor coordination, there was no mention of the "gasp reflex" which can lead to instant drowning in less than the first minute.

[Bill Gwynn]

there was no mention of the "gasp reflex"

I must have seen a different video. The one I watched mentioned gasping at least twice.

[EEL]

I must have seen a different video. The one I watched mentioned gasping at least twice.

And besides scaring ourselves over the dreaded "gasp reflex/cold shock", perhaps a reminder that a hood for the head/neck and ear plugs will provide a great deal of protection and thought given to routinely wearing them when it is cold. Rolls or sculling to submerge the head regardless of season have some advantage as well if only to acquaint yourself with how it feels. Not that there is virtue in ice cream headaches.

While the danger of the "gasp reflex" should not be underestimated, I suspect there are many here who have rolled when the water was in the 40s and perhaps 30s and have not had a problem. I also suspect those who do so wear appropriate gear.

Ed Lawson

[Bill Gwynn]

The Gasp Reflex is actually bronchospasm produced by the "Mammalian Diving Reflex".

"Gasp Reflex" does not affect everyone, and may affect some others in even reasonably warm (60 degree) water. As Ed said, wearing your hood (as well as other appropriate cold water gear) will greatly reduce the odds of having this happen to you. Also, we should all be testing ourselves and equipment in cold water to see how we respond. At the annual NSPN Cold Water Workshop, we all get in our gear and get in the water and stick our heads in. It's quite an eye opener doing it both with and without a hood.

[Gcosloy]

I must have seen a different video. The one I watched mentioned gasping at least twice.

Yes Bill, "gasping" as an example of uncontrolled breathing was mentioned but not the consequence of immersion with the potential of uncontrolled intake of water into the lungs. I thought the video was potentially misleading in that one could come away with the reassurance that hypothermia didn't set in for at least 30 minutes and that the gasping and loss of muscle coordination lasted only a short period of time. This video should not be a training tool for kayakers. Cold water immersion can be problematic for anyone but capsizing a kayak in cold water is even more so. The gasp reflex can lead to sudden death and an unprotected head under water can lead to vertigo which may make staying upright very difficult.

[spuglisi]

Yes Bill, "gasping" as an example of uncontrolled breathing was mentioned but not the consequence of immersion with the potential of uncontrolled intake of water into the lungs. I thought the video was potentially misleading in that one could come away with the reassurance that hypothermia didn't set in for at least 30 minutes and that the gasping and loss of muscle coordination lasted only a short period of time. This video should not be a training tool for kayakers. Cold water immersion can be problematic for anyone but capsizing a kayak in cold water is even more so. The gasp reflex can lead to sudden death and an unprotected head under water can lead to vertigo which may make staying upright very difficult.

All the information that I've seen does indicate that gasping is typically a short term problem (a minute or less) but I thought that the video also made it clear that coordination and muscle control would indeed be an escalating problem in cold water. As far as being able to stay upright...wouldn't the PFD be a valuable resource in that respect?

[spuglisi]

All the information that I've seen does indicate that gasping is typically a short term problem (a minute or less) but I thought that the video also made it clear that coordination and muscle control would indeed be an escalating problem in cold water. As far as being able to stay upright...wouldn't the PFD be a valuable resource in that respect?

Safety is never gauranteed on the water. I think that the, very valid, point of the video was that if you're not wearing a pfd you're very likely to drown before hypothermia sets in.

[Bill Gwynn]

Yes Bill, "gasping" as an example of uncontrolled breathing was mentioned but not the consequence of immersion with the potential of uncontrolled intake of water into the lungs. I thought the video was potentially misleading in that one could come away with the reassurance that hypothermia didn't set in for at least 30 minutes and that the gasping and loss of muscle coordination lasted only a short period of time. This video should not be a training tool for kayakers. Cold water immersion can be problematic for anyone but capsizing a kayak in cold water is even more so. The gasp reflex can lead to sudden death and an unprotected head under water can lead to vertigo which may make staying upright very difficult.

I agree that this short video is not a great "Training Tool" for kayakers. It's not meant to be. I did however find it to be accurate information and in no way misleading.

Anyone interested in additional information on cold water immersion and hypothermia, see the Hypothermia Page here at NSPN.

[EEL]

All the information that I've seen does indicate that gasping is typically a short term problem (a minute or less) but I thought that the video also made it clear that coordination and muscle control would indeed be an escalating problem in cold water.

Disclaimer. I have not watched the video. Under discussion is the Cold Water Boot Camp video? Anyway, I think the rule of thumb is often given as the 1-10-1 rule which is you need to work hard to avoid problems associated with cold shock for one minute after which they subside, then you have about ten minutes in which you can help yourself or help others trying to rescue you before you become physically incapable, and then you have about one hour before you die.

As far as being able to stay upright...wouldn't the PFD be a valuable resource in that respect?

Just a disquieting word about PFDs. Check the basis for PFDs being listed in different types. I believe the typical PFD worn kayaking is not designed to keep a persons head out of the water in a manner that prevents drowning as are other PFDs. That said, certainly better than nothing and generally they are adequate to the task.

On a somewhat related note. While I might be the last person to say having a reliable combat roll is an essential paddling skill, I think the benefit of having one is greatly magnified this time of year. Being upside down for 20 secs and then back up paddling sure beats the alternative for all concerned. While I might also be the last person to practice adequately, consider well Bill's crucial points...practice where you paddle...experience the water...understand what your gear will do and not do for you through planned experiences. You might be wearing all the suggested clothing and more and have studied all the things to do, but if you have not felt that cold water hitting the face and seeping under the hood; then maybe you are not as safe and prepared as you assume.

Given the fact there seem to be more winter paddling opportunities provided on NSPN, this is a timely and good thread which has made me think about things. Like maybe it would be nice to go skiing.

Ed Lawson

[Lbeale]

I agree that this short video is not a great "Training Tool" for kayakers. It's not meant to be. I did however find it to be accurate information and in no way misleading.

Anyone interested in additional information on cold water immersion and hypothermia, see the Hypothermia Page here at NSPN.

I don't think the video is a training tool, either. It is more of an informational video on why it is important to wear a pfd.

I also have never seen a video that shows a person in cold water immersion until they are "almost" hyperthermic--maybe there are other videos out there--I have just not seen one--

How many of us have been paddling in the colder months and seen people in kayaks without pfd's? I know that I have on more than one occasion--particularly around Cape Ann.

The mythology of "I don't have to wear a pfd b/c I am close to shore" is debunked given the statistics quoted in the video.

Maybe Bill, you can answer these questions for me--

Do you know of any gender differences in hypothermia? Is gender a factor? Or, is the gender factor negated by body weight? Given that all things are equal in equipment, if one person weighs more than another person, the heavier weight person, stays warmer longer - regardless of gender?

Les

[Bill Gwynn]

I also have never seen a video that shows a person in cold water immersion until they are "almost" hyperthermic--maybe there are other videos out there--I have just not seen one--

Not kayaking related, but good info with video on cold water survival.

http://www.yukonman.com/cold_water.asp

Maybe Bill, you can answer these questions for me--

Do you know of any gender differences in hypothermia? Is gender a factor? Or, is the gender factor negated by body weight? Given that all things are equal in equipment, if one person weighs more than another person, the heavier weight person, stays warmer longer - regardless of gender?

Les

I have never heard of any gender differences. Certainly body size/weight is a factor, but overall physiology/health would be a bigger factor.

[leong]

I agree that this short video is not a great "Training Tool" for kayakers. It's not meant to be. I did however find it to be accurate information and in no way misleading.

I think it is misleading because of what it left out. Although not intentional, this well done video can be worse than a big lie; it misleads, yet it cannot be pinned on anyone. A serious gag reflex before the completion of a roll (or coming up for air after falling off a skiff) could result in early death. Clearly, this is not a minor point. It should have been emphasized in the video.

[spuglisi]

I think it is misleading because of what it left out. Although not intentional, this well done video can be worse than a big lie; it misleads, yet it cannot be pinned on anyone. A serious gag reflex before the completion of a roll (or coming up for air after falling off a skiff) could result in early death. Clearly, this is not a minor point. It should have been emphasized in the video.

The gasp reflex can be deadly and that is, indeed, not a minor point...but neither is it a universal reaction. All of the physiological reactions discussed in the video ARE universal and every one of those volunteers would have died very quickly in that water without, at minimum, a PFD. Let's remember that none of the volunteers gasped, while submerged, and filled their lungs with water. (to be very clear...I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it isn't universal). This was not a cold water kayaking video nor was it a comprehensive survival guide. It was a 10 minute video clip that demonstrated what happens when someone not dressed for immersion winds up in cold water and the huge benefit that a PFD can provide.

[spuglisi]

Disclaimer. I have not watched the video. Under discussion is the Cold Water Boot Camp video? Anyway, I think the rule of thumb is often given as the 1-10-1 rule which is you need to work hard to avoid problems associated with cold shock for one minute after which they subside, then you have about ten minutes in which you can help yourself or help others trying to rescue you before you become physically incapable, and then you have about one hour before you die.

Yes, the 1-10-1 rule was what was being discussed.

Just a disquieting word about PFDs. Check the basis for PFDs being listed in different types. I believe the typical PFD worn kayaking is not designed to keep a persons head out of the water in a manner that prevents drowning as are other PFDs. That said, certainly better than nothing and generally they are adequate to the task.

Point taken on PFD's not keeping your head out of water but they do tend to keep you upright and the discussion was for someone with vertigo..not someone who was unconscious. I think that the PFD would be helpful but you would have to at least be oriented enough to keep your head out of the water.

[PeterB]

Just a disquieting word about PFDs. Check the basis for PFDs being listed in different types. I believe the typical PFD worn kayaking is not designed to keep a persons head out of the water in a manner that prevents drowning as are other PFDs. That said, certainly better than nothing and generally they are adequate to the task.

I'm curious. If PFD's worn by kayakers are inferior to some other PFD's in "keeping a person's head out of the water in a manner that prevents drowning" (sounds like a pretty important consideration ) : what PFD's are you referring to that do the job better ? Are there any specific models ? And why aren't they used by sea kayakers?

[spuglisi]

Just a disquieting word about PFDs. Check the basis for PFDs being listed in different types. I believe the typical PFD worn kayaking is not designed to keep a persons head out of the water in a manner that prevents drowning as are other PFDs. That said, certainly better than nothing and generally they are adequate to the task.

I'm curious. If PFD's worn by kayakers are inferior to some other PFD's in "keeping a person's head out of the water in a manner that prevents drowning" (sounds like a pretty important consideration ) : what PFD's are you referring to that do the job better ? Are there any specific models ? And why aren't they used by sea kayakers?

I'm not positive Peter, But I think PFD's that will keep an unconscious person's head out of the water utilize a relatively bulky collar that sacrifices a good deal of mobility.

[glil]

I'm not positive Peter, But I think PFD's that will keep an unconscious person's head out of the water utilize a relatively bulky collar that sacrifices a good deal of mobility.

Type I pfd's are most likely to keep an unconscious person's head above water and are designed to keep a person "face-up", although this is not a guarantee as different body types will respond differently.

Most kayakers wear type III or type V pfd's which are not designed to keep an unconscious person's head above water.

Gay

[subaruguru]

The Gasp Reflex is actually bronchospasm produced by the "Mammalian Diving Reflex".

"Gasp Reflex" does not affect everyone, and may affect some others in even reasonably warm (60 degree) water. As Ed said, wearing your hood (as well as other appropriate cold water gear) will greatly reduce the odds of having this happen to you. Also, we should all be testing ourselves and equipment in cold water to see how we respond. At the annual NSPN Cold Water Workshop, we all get in our gear and get in the water and stick our heads in. It's quite an eye opener doing it both with and without a hood.

Exactly my thoughts, Bill.

Further, I was surprised that no mention was made re the severe vertigo that accompanies cold shock for some of us. Just ask Brian Wells.

The video somewhat gives the false impression that wearing a PFD can somehow act prophlactically against cold shock and its effects (inc vertigo). I make only a small allowance for these oversights only because the demonstrations seemed to assume upright vertical immersion, where, with a PFD, gasp reflex is less problemmatic as the head and thorax aren't as suddenly "shocked" as with inverted immersion when a kayaker flips.

I'm a firm believer in the benefits of attending our club CWW, finding it beneficial each year.

Happy holidays, all. Ern

[Gcosloy]

Just a disquieting word about PFDs. Check the basis for PFDs being listed in different types. I believe the typical PFD worn kayaking is not designed to keep a persons head out of the water in a manner that prevents drowning as are other PFDs. That said, certainly better than nothing and generally they are adequate to the task.

I'm curious. If PFD's worn by kayakers are inferior to some other PFD's in "keeping a person's head out of the water in a manner that prevents drowning" (sounds like a pretty important consideration ) : what PFD's are you referring to that do the job better ? Are there any specific models ? And why aren't they used by sea kayakers?

There are PFD's designed for sailors that meet this criteria. Here is but one example:

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/store...&classNum=0

[leong]

The gasp reflex can be deadly and that is, indeed, not a minor point...but neither is it a universal reaction. All of the physiological reactions discussed in the video ARE universal and every one of those volunteers would have died very quickly in that water without, at minimum, a PFD. Let's remember that none of the volunteers gasped, while submerged, and filled their lungs with water. (to be very clear...I'm not saying it doesn't happen but it isn't universal). This was not a cold water kayaking video nor was it a comprehensive survival guide. It was a 10 minute video clip that demonstrated what happens when someone not dressed for immersion winds up in cold water and the huge benefit that a PFD can provide.

To nit pick: You say every one of these volunteers would have died very quickly without a PFD. Maybe or maybe not? We have no way of knowing this. But, either way, it isn't relevant to the gasp reflex, which the video really didn't discuss. Perhaps the ninth volunteer (if she were there) would have suffered a gasp reflex.

The gasp reflex may not be a universal reaction. But neither is it universally true that all people in cold water will drown unless they are wearing a PFD. Obviously, it depends on how far away from safety and other factors.

But, it's a good video. It would have been a lot better if it discussed the gasp reflex in a little more detail..

[spuglisi]

To nit pick: You say every one of these volunteers would have died very quickly without a PFD. Maybe or maybe not? We have no way of knowing this. But, either way, it isn't relevant to the gasp reflex, which the video really didn't discuss. Perhaps the ninth volunteer (if she were there) would have suffered a gasp reflex.

Its not nit picking. My statement was overly broad. I meant that if they weren't able to get out of the water in a very short time they likely wouldn't have been able to keep themselves afloat without the aid of a PFD

The gasp reflex may not be a universal reaction. But neither is it universally true that all people in cold water will drown unless they are wearing a PFD. Obviously, it depends on how far away from safety and other factors.

But, it's a good video. It would have been a lot better if it discussed the gasp reflex in a little more detail..

I guess that last statement was what I was trying to say. The gasp reflex is clearly important but I thought that the information that was presented, was presented well and that seeing the effects of immersion in video form makes a distinct impression

[Lbeale]

Not kayaking related, but good info with video on cold water survival.

http://www.yukonman.com/cold_water.asp

I have never heard of any gender differences. Certainly body size/weight is a factor, but overall physiology/health would be a bigger factor.

I remember several years ago, reading a story in the New Yorker about the woman who swam in the Southern Ocean near the Anartica. The question, how could she swim in frigid waters without getting hypothermic? My limited understanding of the article and physiology in general, is that her fat cells uniquely metabolized allowing her to swim in frigid waters for extended periods of time.

I don't remember her ability being gender-related, but I can be mistaken. Does anyone know this story or read the book about this swimmer? Do you know of a better explanation than the poorly constructed one I gave? les

[Bill Gwynn]

Her name is Lynne Cox. http://www.lynnecox.org/

She has been doing long distance cold water swimming since 1971, so she has been conditioning her body and "adapted". She personally attributes her ability to a very even layer of body fat.

[gyork]

From 5 years ago, re: Lynne Cox

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/02/12/...ain540357.shtml