jdkilroy Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 I'm starting this discussion in hopes I can get some good ideas on emergency flare management. I always carry a pencil flare with three pinpoints on my pfd but I have had repeated issues with water getting to them and hence making them untrustworthy and therefore useless. How do others package their flares so that they are well protected but still readily available. I keep a couple of the big parachute flares and smokes in the day hatch but those are not as readily available as those kept on my person. (In the event you are separated from your boat you're outa luck as well.) What are others doing? Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spuglisi Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 I'm starting this discussion in hopes I can get some good ideas on emergency flare management. I always carry a pencil flare with three pinpoints on my pfd but I have had repeated issues with water getting to them and hence making them untrustworthy and therefore useless. How do others package their flares so that they are well protected but still readily available. I keep a couple of the big parachute flares and smokes in the day hatch but those are not as readily available as those kept on my person. (In the event you are separated from your boat you're outa luck as well.) What are others doing? Jon I keep 3 hand launch ariel flares in a very small, flexible drybag and it fits in my PFD pocket. i haven't had to use them so I can't vouch for their reliability..but they have stayed dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted November 6, 2008 Share Posted November 6, 2008 used pencile flares....in earnest and in testing. testing i thought i had blown my thumb off...loud bang, no light, the shell literally fell off the thing and my thumb was numb for the rest of the day. strike 1. in earnest there was 1 failure to launch and 1 that launched but was so pathetic as to be utterly useless. strikes 2 qnd 3. now, i carry but have not had to use, larger hand held smokers and flares and a dye pack as well. the dye pack is in the pfd pocket and the rest stuffed into the hydration pack behind the bladder. not the easiest access certainly BUT if i should need them, i can get to them even if i'm outta the boat. in reality, it's the radio or epirb that'll draw the attention and then you use the flare, dye, whatever once folks are at least looking in your general direction....to home them in as it were. I keep 3 hand launch ariel flares in a very small, flexible drybag and it fits in my PFD pocket. i haven't had to use them so I can't vouch for their reliability..but they have stayed dry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingsn Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 used pencile flares....in earnest and in testing. testing i thought i had blown my thumb off...loud bang, no light, the shell literally fell off the thing and my thumb was numb for the rest of the day. strike 1. in earnest there was 1 failure to launch and 1 that launched but was so pathetic as to be utterly useless. strikes 2 qnd 3. now, i carry but have not had to use, larger hand held smokers and flares and a dye pack as well. the dye pack is in the pfd pocket and the rest stuffed into the hydration pack behind the bladder. not the easiest access certainly BUT if i should need them, i can get to them even if i'm outta the boat. in reality, it's the radio or epirb that'll draw the attention and then you use the flare, dye, whatever once folks are at least looking in your general direction....to home them in as it were. I carry 3 Orion Skyblasters. I run them through a vacum bagger to protect them. I include in the bag a large nail, this allows me to open the bag by just twisting the nail in the bag. It can easily go in a hydration pack & you can attach a thin line to the unsealed part of the bag & run it to your PFD shoulder strap. I also carry 2 location flares in the day hatch. This summer I tried a 20mm flare gun, now that was impressive. An interesting aside. Last summer the local USP Squadron had a day @ the beach where you could launch flares. I opened my vacum bag w/ my 3 Skyblasters in it & let them rip. Two did nothing & one launched but did not ignite. So bring back-ups for your back-ups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyork Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 I run them through a vacum bagger to protect them. ...... I opened my vacum bag w/ my 3 Skyblasters in it & let them rip. Two did nothing & one launched but did not ignite. So bring back-ups for your back-ups. I get the sense from this post and others that pencil or hand-held flares might offer a false sense of safety. Any reviews that suggest my 12-guage flare gun will out-perform (be more reliable) hand-helds and pencils? Most of us will likely never need to employ the various safety devices we carry/wear, and aren't apt to carry flares AND SPOT AND EPIRB on expeditions. Which of these do you bring on extended expeditions and why? Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 I get the sense from this post and others that pencil or hand-held flares might offer a false sense of safety. I believe it is worse than that. If you need to use a flare, then you have through bad luck or bad judgment gotten yourself into a really bad situation where your self rescue skills have failed, the group's rescue skills have failed (unless a member needs prompt evacuation), and all that is standing between you and your death or serious complications is the ability of outside personnel to find and retrieve you for which the flare's performance is likely critical. In my twisted view, flares do not provide safety. If you think you are safe because you have all the safety equipment on the checklist you are deluding yourself. At best they provide the means by which the consequences of being unlucky, unsafe, and/or unprepared may be ameliorated. Maybe I'm just an alarmist, but such is the lot of timid woodland creatures. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnHuth Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 I use a flare gun, and keep the shells in a baggie. Both fit into the pockets of my PFD. That works pretty well for me. The main thing is to change out the shells every couple of years. In the day hatch, in dry bags, I have some larger hand-helds, a super-dooper parachute flare, smoke markers (for day use) and water dye. Thankfully, I've never had to use these, although I did go through the exercise of dumping in gnarly conditions and trying to load and fake-shoot the gun. I know that the flares are pretty reliable if you replace them regularly, but you may get the occasional dud. Over time - eg. three years, the number of duds significantly increases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 The main thing is to change out the shells every couple of years. ...... Over time - eg. three years, the number of duds significantly increases. Excellent point. I believe they all have expiration dates and CG Reg compliance requires unexpired flares. To say nothing of trusting you and companion's welfare to equipment that the manufacturer says may be too old or almost too old to be used let alone relied upon. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 I believe it is worse than that. If you need to use a flare, then you have through bad luck or bad judgment gotten yourself into a really bad situation where your self rescue skills have failed, the group's rescue skills have failed (unless a member needs prompt evacuation), and all that is standing between you and your death or serious complications is the ability of outside personnel to find and retrieve you for which the flare's performance is likely critical. In my twisted view, flares do not provide safety. If you think you are safe because you have all the safety equipment on the checklist you are deluding yourself. At best they provide the means by which the consequences of being unlucky, unsafe, and/or unprepared may be ameliorated. Maybe I'm just an alarmist, but such is the lot of timid woodland creatures. Ed Lawson Unclear what is the point you are making: Don’t carry flares because they offer a false sense of security, or by the time you need them your’e already screwed? Don’t paddle in such places, or in such a manner that you’d ever need them? In any event: Those parachute flares are pretty impressive, and big! I saw one in a what’s-in-my-kit demonstration this Sept.; it looked like something out of “Saving Private Ryanâ€, not something you tuck into a pocket on the pfd. One non pyro- alternative to flares: https://www.greatlandlaser.com/index.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyork Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 In my twisted view, flares do not provide safety. Ed Lawson Of course not, and I should have used the word reliability, and the phrase "rescue aids", not safety devices. Safety is a dynamic, intangible state of mind, and the best (or worst) safety device we carry is between our ears. Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Unclear what is the point you are making: Don’t carry flares because they offer a false sense of security, or by the time you need them your’e already screwed? By the time you need them you have gone through 3 of the 4 levels and they had better work because you are likely at the last level before the abyss. Don’t paddle in such places, or in such a manner that you’d ever need them? One option, but what would be the point of living if you cannot be alive. And being alive means for some running the risk of no longer living. Its all about the risks you are willing to take. Being "safe" is staying within bounds of acceptable risk and having skills needed...which is a different place for different people. To me being "unsafe" is not knowing what the risks are nor having requisite skills for the level of acceptable risk. To me risk is not about the level of danger nor the consequences if things goes wrong, even if both are very high, but instead a measure of how likely things will go wrong. And recognizing that despite everything, you can still get the chop. Ed Lawson Who needs to write more clearly and succintly too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaruguru Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 [q Those parachute flares are pretty impressive, and big! Is this how they work, Pete? http://www.collegeslackers.com/video/parachute_flare_gun PS Wish that laser wasn't $100! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaruguru Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 More on the laser: http://www.equipped.org/rescuelaser.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdkilroy Posted November 7, 2008 Author Share Posted November 7, 2008 OK, so lets go back to the original question. What are folks doing to keep their pyros dry and useable. Packaging tricks that still let you get at them. (I love the nail in the vac-pak trick) Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyork Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Where does one find a vacuum packer or whatever it's called? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 OK, so lets go back to the original question. You expect us to stay on topic? What are folks doing to keep their pyros dry and useable. Oh...OK. I don't worry that much about keeping them dry or worry about packaging them up to assure they stay dry, but which also makes it harder to get and use them. It will be at least twice as hard for me to do anything when it hits the wall and nothing is easy for starters anyways, so simple is important. Any flare worth carrying will be allegedly waterproof. The ones discussed in this thread are...supposedly...I just take care to inspect for problems after paddles just like other gear. I do admit to carrying extras in a drybag that is my bailout bag and I carefully inspect for water intrusion in that bag since it is often wet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingsn Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 Where does one find a vacuum packer or whatever it's called? Wallmart for one. In is w/ the small kitchen gadgets & is used for vacuum packing food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 The following report provides some useful information to think about when considering what flares to have/use and how useful they might be in the real world. Some sobering comments given the test distance was around 1200 feet. http://www.boatus.com/Foundation/Findings/...ngs45/page1.asp I know there needs to be some sun out, but during the day it seems there is much to be said for a good signal mirror. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingsn Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 You expect us to stay on topic? Oh...OK. I don't worry that much about keeping them dry or worry about packaging them up to assure they stay dry, but which also makes it harder to get and use them. It will be at least twice as hard for me to do anything when it hits the wall and nothing is easy for starters anyways, so simple is important. Any flare worth carrying will be allegedly waterproof. The ones discussed in this thread are...supposedly...I just take care to inspect for problems after paddles just like other gear. I do admit to carrying extras in a drybag that is my bailout bag and I carefully inspect for water intrusion in that bag since it is often wet. ...It's all a trade off. I can open the bag w/ heavy neo gloves on. Is it an extra step, yes. For me, I think it just increases the odds that they will work. As to the allegedly waterproof flares (isn't that the truth) earlier in the post I mentioned that my perfectly dry, vacuum sealed, flares all failed & the were still current. Just to make it interesting...I have a great signal mirror made by a little old man in TX. that was rated #1 by Seakayaker Mag a few years ago. Of course you would not be using it while your hanging on to you boat in the nasty stuff, it can be very impressive once your stable on that desert island. Just make sure you keep the batteries current (ok, just kidding about the batteries). I have seen some impressive stats, for example, properly used (w/experience) you can cover about 1,200 square miles w/ a signal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingsn Posted November 7, 2008 Share Posted November 7, 2008 The following report provides some useful information to think about when considering what flares to have/use and how useful they might be in the real world. Some sobering comments given the test distance was around 1200 feet. http://www.boatus.com/Foundation/Findings/...ngs45/page1.asp I know there needs to be some sun out, but during the day it seems there is much to be said for a good signal mirror. Ed Lawson A mirror can work surprisingly well in the moon light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdkilroy Posted November 10, 2008 Author Share Posted November 10, 2008 Here is another question: What do you do when a pinpoint flare fails to fire? You need to remove the dud from your launcher so you can try again but you can't be sure its not going to suddenly ignite while you are removing it. I see myself holding it under water while I unscrew the dud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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