Pintail Owners?

[Gcosloy]

Hi Pintail owners. I'm looking at a used boat on consignment with an ocean cockpit. I know that there are a number of Pintail owners in NSPN but curiously I never get to see them on trips. Is it because the boat is so narrowly specialized that you wouldn't take it out for a straight shoot but only use it for rocks or surfing? Please tell me what you like and don't like about your boat. For me the attraction might be edging super tight turns, super rough water potential and surfing. I already have a Chatham 16 and wouldn't necessarily want another boat that wasn't too different from it. I appreciate all responses good news or not.

[Bill Gwynn]

Love my Pintail. I paddle it quite a bit. I don't consider it specialized at all and will paddle it anytime anywhere. Of course, I am a playboat type person and own an Avocet, Anas and Pintail. I paddle the Anas only when I am not going near any rocks due to the hard chines taking a beating on the rocks. I paddle the Avocet mostly when I expect to be doing a lot of rescue practice (keyhole cockpit) and really damaging rock play as it's kevlar and has been through the wringer so much now, that it's my "beater boat". The Pintail gets paddled most other times, so out on a regular day trip where the is a mix of stuff, the Pintail gets the nod. It's great in the surf, great in the rocks, is reasonably fast for a play boat. Low profile, so the wind doesn't affect it too much (others may disagree) I have never own a strong tracking boat, so for me, the Pintail just requires a little more attention. Some people say that just using a little skeg makes the boat "just right". Personally, I never use the skeg on any of my boats. Now, the biggest concern you should have is with the Ocean cockpit. They are great once you are in. Lots of contact and control. The issue is getting in and out of it. I spent a lot of time working on entry and exits, and can now do cowboys pretty reliably, but not anywhere near as easy as a keyhole. Re-enter and rolls are pretty much the same, just takes an extra second or two to get situated. Getting T-rescued is more difficult for both you and the rescuer due to you needing to basically sit on the rear deck to get your legs in first. So, getting in, you can work to get it down pretty good. Getting out is where I have the most problems. I would say that 1 or 2 times out of 10, I end up falling out. Surf landings are a real PITA. Personally, I love the Ocean Cockpit and believe that a Pintail with a keyhole is blasphemous. But, I do understand that some just do not not want to deal with the hassles of an Ocean cockpit. Seeing as Valley decided to offer the Pintail both ways proves it's popularity. It's such a fun hull design. So, great boat, lot's of fun, I would just carefully consider if the Ocean Cockpit is right for you.

[ChrisM]

I've had a Pintail as my only kayak for about 4 years, here's my experience with it (others experiences may vary).

Strengths:

The Pintail is probably one of the most forgiving boats in the rocks. This is due to the fact that you can spin, or pivot, the boat easily to make the tight turns. Also, the soft chines don't tend to get hung up on rocks as much as a hard chined kayak would.

It's a great rough water boat. I've always felt very steady in choppy water. I think it's because the low volume of the boat means your sitting fairly low in the water - lower center of gravity.

It does great surfing. You can usually turn the boat quicker than most, after heading out, so you can catch that nice wave that's coming at you. No hard chines to trip over once you get side surfed (I've never surfed a hard chined kayak, so I don't know how much of a problem this is).

Weaknesses:

Paddling in a straight line. The nose of the boat tends to wander around like a lost puppy with each paddle stroke. You really have to pay attention to where you are going because it's easy to get off track. Since buying an explorer, I find that I can look around and enjoy the scenery a lot more. Of course, you can always put the skeg down. I did. Just got to remember to put it back up when you're going into the rocks or surf.

Since the Pintail has so much rocker, quite a bit of the front and back of the boat is above the waterline. So, even though it's 17'2" long, it has a short waterline, which, in theory, means a lower hull speed. I always felt like I was plowing through the water, rather than slicing through it. I was usually one of the slower paddlers in the group (mostly because I was playing in the rocks!). Although, even in my Explorer, I'm still slow. Go figure...

Overall, in my opinion, the Pintail is a fun boat to paddle. Great for play and rough water. Just maybe not one of the faster boats out there. (As a counter point, some people do weeklong camping trips in their Pintails, and at least one person has done the Blackburn in a Pintail).

Hope this helps.

[Gcosloy]

Thanks a lot guys. Your comments are helpful. Bill's caution about surf landings is the only one that gives me pause. I guess if you're not alone you could always ask the paddler that reaches the beach before you to assist your incoming. And if you are alone don't land on beaches.

[Brian Nystrom]

For the most part I agree with the others' comments. I'm a big fan of ocean cockpits, don't even own a boat with a keyhole anymore and probably never will. Entry and exit techniques are different than with a keyhole, but no big deal. I'm not quite sure what Bill means about surf landings being a hassle, as once you hit the beach, you just pop the skirt and slide out. On steeper beach, gravity actually helps you get out. Perhaps we're talking about different things.

As for the Pintail itself, it's a great boat for surf and rock play, but if I'm just going out for a day trip that's going to involve little or no rocks, I prefer the Anas Acuta. It tracks better and needs less constant attention than the Pintail. It's also slightly faster and doesn't "hit a wall" @ 4 knots or so the way a Pintail does. That said, there will always be a Pintail in my "fleet", as there's nothing better for "bashing around" days. As long as you're not in a hurry, it works fine for day trips, too. Regarding the skeg, I use it a lot with the Pintail, pretty much whenever I'm not playing in rocks or surf. Of course, the rope skeg is notorious unreliable, but that's another issue.

When looking for used Pintails, the pre-'95 boats with the original rounded hull and flat aft deck are the most prized by "Pintail-o-philes". The newer boats with their squarer hulls and higher decks are still nice, but they just don't feel the same. I know a few people who've owned both and all prefer the older design. Valley will now make the older style boats on special order and a carbon/kevlar version might be the ultimate play boat!

FYI, all keyhole cockpit Pintails are the newer design, as the change was made when the keyhole was introduced. The ocean cockpit models were changed then as well.

[Bill Gwynn]

Hey Brian,

My comment about surf landings with an ocean cockpit just reflect my experience. I find that when you have surf coming in behind you, you have a limited opportunity (time wise) to get your butt out before that next wave. No big deal really. I just think that more often I end flopping around on the beach rather than the graceful exit I can usually do with the keyhole pulling my feet out first.

My thoughts were to just to let people know that Ocean Cockpit's are different and not necessarily everyone's cup of tea.

[EEL]

I have found that a strip of "noslip" tape behind the cockpit helps. It give a more secure purchase for the hands when you need to "push" yourself out and back in a hurry. I have heard folks say they can exit a OC as fast as a keyhole, but I doubt most feel that way. Regardless, they are very, very nice when on the water and not that big a deal getting in and out.

As an aside, while the Pintail and AA are most often thought of as play/day boats; they are really great coastal touring as opposed to expedition touring boats with enough volume for at least 90% of the trips we weekend warriors do. Same for their more modern offspring (Avocet/Romany, etc.)

Ed Lawson

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Hi Pintail owners. I'm looking at a used boat on consignment with an ocean cockpit. I know that there are a number of Pintail owners in NSPN but curiously I never get to see them on trips. Is it because the boat is so narrowly specialized that you wouldn't take it out for a straight shoot but only use it for rocks or surfing? Please tell me what you like and don't like about your boat. For me the attraction might be edging super tight turns, super rough water potential and surfing. I already have a Chatham 16 and wouldn't necessarily want another boat that wasn't too different from it. I appreciate all responses good news or not.

Hey Gene,

I guess I differ in some respects to the opinions offered so far. First, I do not feel the Pintail is a slow boat or that it needs a lot of correction while underway. Second, mine has a keyhole cockpit, which I'm fine with. I know some are ocean cockpit aficionados, but for me I wanted an used Pintail and that's what was available.

I do agree wholeheartedly that the Pintail is the best long boat surfer that I have experienced. Depending on what you want to do with the boat, and given that I haven't paddled the Chatham 16 you mentioned enough to comment on it, have you thought of the plastic Avocet as an option? It's a great rock boat and a competent surfer. Comfortable as well on long trips, too.

[djlewis]

QUOTE(Kevin B @ Sep 2 2008, 08:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

have you thought of the plastic Avocet as an option? It's a great rock boat and a competent surfer. Comfortable as well on long trips, too.

Second that on the Avocet! Rolls like a dream too -- great for learning.

--David.

[Brian Nystrom]

I have heard folks say they can exit a OC as fast as a keyhole, but I doubt most feel that way.

It depends a lot on how old/stiff/creaky you are. Then again, knowing that there's a dumping wave coming up behind to pound you can result in a substantial - if momentary - reduction in age and gain in flexibility. Adrenalin is the fountain of youth!

[flipe8]

I can't really add much to what has already been said, other than to agree with how well this boat handles the rough stuff. I also tend to find the OC a bit "challenging" at times when surf landings are a concern, but I've managed to this point without too much abuse. After having back surgery a couple years back, my ability to get into the boat has decreased a bit anyways. Regarding self-rescues, I've simply concentrated on the techniques I'd be inclined to use rather than worry about the ones I find limiting. I mean, rather than trying to do a cowboy-type self rescue, why not just learn the re-entry&roll, as there comes a point where condtions favour this sort of self-rescue. I've been amazed at how well the boat responds to techniques on a wave face. It's sometimes like the Pintail just "knows" what to do. I had 5-days worth of gear in the boat this past spring and I imagine the boat could've handle more had my packing improved. Our paddling group consisted of two Explorers and an Avocet and we were able to plug along at about 4knots, so I don't think I held anyone back too much.

My boat is now my "fun boat" with an Explorer as my "tripping boat". Being that my Pintail is carbon/kevlar, it's very light and quite tough from what I've experienced. I must admit, I had thoughts of selling it a while back, but man, am I happy I didn't!