Paddler Responsiblity

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

This is a subject that seems to need some discussion based on trip experiences. When an average paddler decides to join a group for a paddle, what is his or her responsibility to the rest of the group? I'm curious to see what people think about this. As someone who doesn't initiate a lot of trips (if any), (as much has already been discussed on that subject), what do you feel you owe to the rest of the group with whom you have chosen to paddle? Did you post that you would be attending or email the initiator? Did you check the forecast and research (using our site or others) the general area in which you would be paddling? Are you carrying equipment that you have either no idea or a limited idea about how to use (tow belts come to mind)? Have you made an effort to improve your skills though formal/informal practice sessions or thought professional training? Are you expecting a guided tour where someone else is responsible for you but you are not responsible for them? Did you ask questions before or during the trip?

Curious what people have to say and hopefully a good discussion will ensue.

[bob budd]

When an average paddler decides to join a group for a paddle, what is his or her responsibility to the rest of the group?

A paddler is no more or less responsible for the members of the group than they would be when hiking, biking, etc. To that end, they should offer their expertise and/or assistance to their ability and should not be compelled to venture where they are uncomfortable if another paddler choses to venture there.

What do you feel you owe to the rest of the group with whom you have chosen to paddle? Did you post that you would be attending or email the initiator? Did you check the forecast and research (using our site or others) the general area in which you would be paddling? Are you carrying equipment that you have either no idea or a limited idea about how to use (tow belts come to mind)? Have you made an effort to improve your skills though formal/informal practice sessions or thought professional training?

In general, the courtesies mentioned above should be observed. As regards research, i.e. preparation, it may be difficult for beginners to understand what to look up, etc. As a matter of personal responsiblity everyone should be reasonably competent with their equipment or let others know they are not (hopefully leading to the necessary instruction/advice/practice).

Are you expecting a guided tour where someone else is responsible for you but you are not responsible for them?

Unless someone has explicitly expressed an interest to guide/teach (e.g. a recent "pass it forward" paddle) noone should expect to be lead. As mentioned above, each paddler should be reasonably well matched with the majority of the group, something that is admittedly difficult to establish. If someone ends up over their head once, the group adjusts to their level. If they continue to do so, the group at some point would have the option of asking them to stay on shore.

Did you ask questions before or during the trip?

Always a good idea. Not easy for some. In some cases someone might not know what questions to ask. The more experienced paddlers should try to drag this out of the less experienced paddlers, perhaps individually after observing behaviour, comfort level, curiousity, etc. This is no more or less an obligation than in any other case of group dynamics. Spiderman was tasked with responsibility due to great power, experience comes with a similar responsibility to others exercised based upon personal choice.

[Bill Gwynn]

I second what Bob said.

Also, to add my 2 cents.

Whenever I go on a trip, I always take responsibility for myself. That includes knowing the tides, weather, having a chart, and what my expectations are. I evaluate if this paddle is right for me. Do I have the skills, will I be the weakest paddler, the strongest, or somewhere in the middle. I also make sure I have the appropriate kit and the knowledge to use it. Check Here for a guideline for what to bring.

I feel that my responsibility to the group includes everyone in the group. Not only to help a paddler having a problem, but also to communicate to the stronger paddlers that they need to slow down or help or whatever. Under CAM, the whole idea is for everyone to work together and have a fun, safe day on the water. Common adventure is nothing new. We have all used it in our lives. Out on a fishing trip with your buds, out for a hike with friends, a day of xc skiing. These are all CAM trips. Even a pot luck cookout in your back yard could be considered CAM. Any responsible individual would not purposely let someone put themselves in harms way.

To Quote from the Trip Participation Page:

"On a Common Adventure trip, everyone is expected to share in the responsibilities of the trip. The trip initiator (the person who posted the trip) simply gets the ball rolling. The rest of the group is expected to help plan for the success of the trip, from the arrival at the launch and beach briefing until the trip has ended and everyone is safely on their way home. The success or failure of a common adventure trip rests not in the hands of the trip initiator, or NSPN, but rather in the hands of everyone that participates in the trip."

Communication is the key.

Communication prior to the trip via posting or email, know what your in for.

Communication on the beach prior to departure, know what you are in for.

Communication on the water, know what you are in for.

Training...yes get some. Peer learning is a great thing, either at skill sessions or on a trip. I personally do some rescue practice, tow practice, stroke practice etc. on every trip. I am also a strong proponent of professional instruction. Nothing like having someone that does this for a living to help you perfect those needed skills.

[suwin]

Big thanks go to Rick S. for his "How To" trip. I've learned so much from that outing...lots of common sense stuff that was spelled out very clearly with a big emphasis on responsibility.

I actually enjoy the trips more now that I'm more prepared for them and aware of what everyone else is doing, instead of just focusing on myself. And all the practice I'm getting prepping to go on a trip with others is making me more confident about eventually going on trips by myself.

I've been on both types of trips: good communication and sticking together vs. let's see how fast we can get there. I much prefer the groups that communicate and stick together.

[Gcosloy]

I am responsible for myself and do not expect gratuitous help from others. As a human being connected to the larger community of mankind I will come to the aid of others known to me or a stranger and have a similar expectation if I’m in need of same. This is part of our definition of being human and has little to do with NSPN dynamics or any legal definition of responsibility. If I’m on a trip with others and have knowledge of the area I will share it even to the point of leading. If I’m new to the area I would hope that those with knowledge would also share even to the point of providing leadership. While my own model is to continue to learn and improve skills, particularly about rescue and safety I don’t require that others I’m paddling with either share the same sentiment or have the same level of skill that I do. I will always check weather conditions before embarking on any trip. I will always access my own capability with regard to the plan put forth by others and decide accordingly. I’m respectful of individual differences and will tend to accommodate those that have made errors in judgment either in planning a trip or executing same. My sole motivation for paddling with a group larger than myself is added safety. However a group of two easily satisfies that in my mind so that my additional motivation is to experience the comradeship and fun being with paddlers I know as well as meeting new ones.

[Gillian]

Oddly enough, it's very rarely in my opinion the "new to paddling" folks who end up the discussion of what should or should not have happened on the water in the trip reports this summer. Folks who are new I've found ask what's expected, if the trip is right for them, and ask what to expect from the group and what the group can expect from them. Whether or not theyr'e advanced enough to check tides and weather isn't as important for that very new paddler who will start to learn from the more experienced.

Most of the discussion centers around the intermediate paddlers who have enough knowledge to be dangerous as the expression goes. I know some people shun professional training which is typically where you really have group management drilled into you. The pay it forward system is great as long as the person who's paying it forward knows what the heck they're doing.

If you look at where folks start to butt heads it usually where some folks who have been brought up under the most experienced paddlers in the country are continually surprised when others 1) don't look back, 2) don't effectively communicate by their standards 3) don't have a working knowledge of group management.

I don't think it's CAM, I just think that different paddlers have different expectations of what it means to paddle as informed group member. Not every paddler is going to aspire be a leader in the spirit of the BCU and ACA definition of a leader, but anyone in CAM can lead a trip.

I'm not saying that's incorrect or to be avoided, but it is what it is.

[JohnHuth]

continually surprised when others 1) don't look back,

John Carmody elegantly demonstrated this to me in a rough water class. We were paddling along during a crossing in RI, and he was at the back of the group. He deliberately capsized. It took an embarrassingly long time before the other instructor pointed this out to us. I doubt any of us would've noticed for maybe 10 minutes - we were all in our little dreamland, I think. I never forgot that one.

[djlewis]

The pay it forward system is great as long as the person who's paying it forward knows what the heck they're doing.

...

I don't think it's CAM, I just think that different paddlers have different expectations of what it means to paddle as informed group member. Not every paddler is going to aspire be a leader in the spirit of the BCU and ACA definition of a leader, but anyone in CAM can lead a trip.

Well put. One important thing I think NSPN is now missing is that organized "pay it forward" system embedded in a professional-level training program (which ours was). That guaranteed that what got taught was up to the minute, state-of-the-art stuff, such as group management, handling incidents, etc etc.

The other thing was a very real bond -- across "generations" -- created among the active paddlers who took the leader training, whether or not they actually led trips (and far from all did). The reason was that many if not most past trainees helped with subsequent training, as demonstrators, play-act trip participants for the trainees to practice on, and as rescue and scenario bait. And again, that was in a professional-level context.

Any way we can bring those good things back, somehow, in a CAM/SnG context?

--David.

[bob budd]

There are valuable parts of leader training that would be useful for new paddlers; charts/navigation, tows/rescues, radio protocol/etiquette, etc. Group dynamics would be useful for all paddlers (and non-paddlers). Even if there was no "leader track" it would provide a service to new members. Alas, however, there will be paddlers who long to be lead. For those paddlers there are guided trips from outfitters.

[Deb Millar]

Why is being led necessarily a bad thing and only in the realm of outfitters? Sometimes a paddle is a paddle and the only way for a new kayaker to get on the water and try out the sport. And don't the Trip Level Ratings, which still seem in use, sort things out?

Deb M

[Gcosloy]

This year with the change in trip methodology, people have been acting strange. Before adopting the CAM model there were two types of trips: leader based with assumed responsibility and insurance coverage and Show & Go's, which while they lacked insurance had no lack of leadership, if only by example. Now, one shows up for a paddle in an area in which several participants have intimate knowledge and the first proclamation one hears is "I'm not the leader!" Seems like a step backwards. When in the past, someone posted a S&G you assumed they had some sort of plan in mind and were happy to share it with others. Now, it's almost like some people want to play "gotcha" with less experienced paddlers. I don't know how others feel about learning new skills but I'd like to know before hand if I'm going to bottom my boat on some rock that someone has already spotted. Yes, this has actually happened to me and yes I did learn from it but painfully. I don't think learning and sharing and skill building necessarily needs to include pain, physical or mental. What if a paddler joined a group to do some shallow water surfing without a helmet? Would you speak to him/her or hope to make a stronger point by watching them windowshade? This last is obviously rhetorical in nature. Read Al's post about the rescue of newbies in the Gap last weekend outside of Rockport and you will see why it may be dangerous to believe that all opinions should be respected equally.

[bob budd]

I did not say or imply "bad". As the leader training program evolved and was debated there was a perception among (some) outfitters that NSPN was essentially a competitor due to the training, etc. of leaders and the offering of "official" trips. I would submit that most paddlers who wish to be led are not comfortable with the less formal structure of CAM and/or not "ready" to participate in planning, etc. of the trip.

[rick stoehrer]

This year with the change in trip methodology, people have been acting strange. Before adopting the CAM model there were two types of trips: leader based with assumed responsibility and insurance coverage and Show & Go's, which while they lacked insurance had no lack of leadership, if only by example. Now, one shows up for a paddle in an area in which several participants have intimate knowledge and the first proclamation one hears is "I'm not the leader!" Seems like a step backwards. When in the past, someone posted a S&G you assumed they had some sort of plan in mind and were happy to share it with others. Now, it's almost like some people want to play "gotcha" with less experienced paddlers. I don't know how others feel about learning new skills but I'd like to know before hand if I'm going to bottom my boat on some rock that someone has already spotted. Yes, this has actually happened to me and yes I did learn from it but painfully. I don't think learning and sharing and skill building necessarily needs to include pain, physical or mental. What if a paddler joined a group to do some shallow water surfing without a helmet? Would you speak to him/her or hope to make a stronger point by watching them windowshade? This last is obviously rhetorical in nature. Read Al's post about the rescue of newbies in the Gap last weekend outside of Rockport and you will see why it may be dangerous to believe that all opinions should be respected equally.

so sit down, shut up and do what you say? or is it your opinion that we shouldn't respect?

you see that slippery slope?

the group dynamic thing you describe sounds unpleasant and mean spirited. not exactly what any of this is supposed to be about.

if someone posts a trip and you were led to believe one thing from the post and then another happens...don't paddle with that turkey again. if someone behaves like a turkey, don't paddle with them. if you paddle with someone that needs a hand, help. if need help, ask.

i'll post another CAM thing when i get back from the symposium and then after my week of bliss up in stonington after the upcoming weekend shenanigans.

on that CAM...come, play, share. let's see if we can all get along and what the hell, someone may even tell you not to paddle onto rocks (but as anyone who knows, knows....that wouldn't be me!)

[Gcosloy]

I thought my post was clear. Something about it must have ticked you off. Let me try again: I've observed so called "incident management" where bang something untoward happens in the middle of a group and people are left to respond as best they can. This is a method of training that participants are usually are aware of when they join up to learn. I'm just trying to say that when I go out on a lovely paddle with a group of others I don't expect to be the target of an object lesson. Maybe if I was in on the plan I would have felt differently. If you saw me on the water in a lead group completely oblivious to those behind me, you might do me and others a favor by pointing this out. I might appreciate and learn from it. On the other hand, if you ignored that option and then publically criticized my behavior, I might also learn from it, but not with the same pleasure.

[rick stoehrer]

I thought my post was clear. Something about it must have ticked you off. Let me try again: I've observed so called "incident management" where bang something untoward happens in the middle of a group and people are left to respond as best they can. This is a method of training that participants are usually are aware of when they join up to learn. I'm just trying to say that when I go out on a lovely paddle with a group of others I don't expect to be the target of an object lesson. Maybe if I was in on the plan I would have felt differently. If you saw me on the water in a lead group completely oblivious to those behind me, you might do me and others a favor by pointing this out. I might appreciate and learn from it. On the other hand, if you ignored that option and then publically criticized my behavior, I might also learn from it, but not with the same pleasure.

gene -

ahhh, no...not too clear. sounds like there was something going on that i just wasn't part of and i think i'm glad i wasn't. honestly, it sounds like you're a little ticked off...

but no, you didn't tick me off...my response was to the last bit in your post about not respecting all folks opinions equally.

i agree with you that some folks may have better ideas on how to do something and there are times when there is a RIGHT and a WRONG but the idea that people's opinion shouldn't be given respect i thought a little harsh...we all have opinions and no one wants to be discounted....so hence, the "sit down shut up and do what i say" thing....sounded to me like that was what you were saying with that bit.

so no, you didn't tick me off. didn't mean for it to come across that way....message boards are a really lousy means of conveying "tone"

in any event, whatever....it was a very nice few hours on the water just now...

[Pintail]

<If you saw me on the water in a lead group completely oblivious to those behind me, you might do me and others a favor by pointing this out. I might appreciate and learn from it. On the other hand, if you ignored that option and then publically criticized my behavior, I might also learn from it, but not with the same pleasure>

Ummm, well, since you raise that point, dear Gene, this is <exactly> what caused my original remark on the trip reports page! EXACTLY this -- I paddled out to the front group (of that trip to Thachers) and approached you all from abeam (I'm reiterating, here); I got to within fifty feet of you all and the only paddler who appeared to notice my approach was Doug in his vivid orange P&H boat -- the only paddler who turned his head and saw me (AFAIK). No one was looking behind themself, that was for sure.

This fact caused me to write about the need for inccreased attention to other paddlers around one and I was <trying>, diplomatically, to make this an educational commentary! We seem to have come full-circle, don't we?

[EEL]

We seem to have come full-circle, don't we?

I would be remiss if I did not add it would be expected of a Pintail to come full circle.

Ed Lawson

[Gcosloy]

<If you saw me on the water in a lead group completely oblivious to those behind me, you might do me and others a favor by pointing this out. I might appreciate and learn from it. On the other hand, if you ignored that option and then publically criticized my behavior, I might also learn from it, but not with the same pleasure>

Ummm, well, since you raise that point, dear Gene, this is <exactly> what caused my original remark on the trip reports page! EXACTLY this -- I paddled out to the front group (of that trip to Thachers) and approached you all from abeam (I'm reiterating, here); I got to within fifty feet of you all and the only paddler who appeared to notice my approach was Doug in his vivid orange P&H boat -- the only paddler who turned his head and saw me (AFAIK). No one was looking behind themself, that was for sure.

This fact caused me to write about the need for inccreased attention to other paddlers around one and I was <trying>, diplomatically, to make this an educational commentary! We seem to have come full-circle, don't we?

Chris I'm more than happy to put all this behind me. I'm moving on now and I'm not looking back. This circle has been completed, anything more would seem tangential.

[EEL]

This circle has been completed, anything more would seem tangential.

As in are we talking Euclidean or non-Euclidean geometry? <g>

Lots of options this weekend, lets all get out there and paddle, enjoy the company with whom you are paddling, and be enjoyable company to those with whom you paddle.

Ed Lawson