Thunderstorm on the water

[Gcosloy]

What to do if all else fails, i.e. your on the water too far from bail out spots and TS have begun close to your position? Perhaps this might work! Carry a pair of neoprene gloves on your deck during this season. Put them on, capsize, wet exit and position yourself under the cockpit where you have plenty of air to breath. Most Brit boats are so shaped that the cockpit combing never gets completely sealed by the water upside down. Hold on the combing and wait until the storms pass. Would this work?

[EEL]

Would this work?

Well, just how many documented cases of kayakers being struck are there? I suspect the risk is exceeding small. In fact, you are likely at less risk on the water than you are near the waters edge near a beach or slightly inshore. Strikes are more common in that zone I have read somewhere, but you read all sorts of things on this topic.

While the water felt pretty warm this week in Casco Bay, I think I would rather take my chances staying upright in my boat than spending 30 minutes waiting out the usual summer thunderstorm in the water along the Maine coast. Especially when typically dressed to stay comfortable while paddling in the summer.

Ed Lawson

[Phil Allen]

Gene -It's a good question (maybe add it to the main board?). Given the winds that often accompany thunderstorms, I think I'd be concerned with losing the boat if I wasn't seated in it.

Phil

[Gcosloy]

Gene -It's a good question (maybe add it to the main board?). Given the winds that often accompany thunderstorms, I think I'd be concerned with losing the boat if I wasn't seated in it.

Phil

If you have your waist or PFD type tow belt attached you could also clip onto your boat.

******Bill or Jason could you move this Post to the Main Board???????*******

[spuglisi]

If you have your waist or PFD type tow belt attached you could also clip onto your boat.

******Bill or Jason could you move this Post to the Main Board???????*******

I attended Dr Huth's weather workshop this past spring. His take was that statistically, out on the open water, the risk of being struck by lightning is very small and that the risk from the associated winds is of greater concern. Also, as was mentioned in this thread, he felt that the area near the waters' edge was a more dangerous place to be as far as the lightning itself.

[spuglisi]

I attended Dr Huth's weather workshop this past spring. His take was that statistically, out on the open water, the risk of being struck by lightning is very small and that the risk from the associated winds is of greater concern. Also, as was mentioned in this thread, he felt that the area near the waters' edge was a more dangerous place to be as far as the lightning itself.

OH! One other thing...salt water is an excellent conductor of electricity. I'm not sure being in the water would be a good thing if there was a close strike.

[Deb Millar]

What to do if all else fails, i.e. your on the water too far from bail out spots and TS have begun close to your position? Perhaps this might work! Carry a pair of neoprene gloves on your deck during this season. Put them on, capsize, wet exit and position yourself under the cockpit where you have plenty of air to breath. Most Brit boats are so shaped that the cockpit combing never gets completely sealed by the water upside down. Hold on the combing and wait until the storms pass. Would this work?

Pardon my ignorance, but what are the neoprene gloves for?

I also agree with everyone else, not to mention the fact that, while loosing one's boat is a possibility, I wouldn't want to be tethered in any way, shape or form to 55 lbs of fiberglass + gear, either, especially if the wind and likely the waves, picked up.

The best advice is probably to know what's happening before you go out, and, while things can happen and storms blow up quickly, stay within a quick paddle to your bail out points, which you ideally should know before hand.

And then paddle like, well, Hades.

Deb M

[bob budd]

This is always a fun topic. A recent thread suggested you paddle up to the nearest sailboat, which is not a good idea. Another approach is to paddle with one or more paddlers who are very tall, especially if they have extra-long torsos.

The best advice is to avoid the T-storm in the first place. As with all advice, it leaves out both mistakes and circumstances that are beyond your control. Considering especially the other things that are happening during a T-storm, as Mr. Huth noted, I would suggest that you are safest in your boat upright and away from shore.

Lightning is drawn to the shoreline as the ground conditions, as with rock outcroppings on mountains, are favourable for the localized charge buildup that creates a sufficient differential with the clouds so the plasma forms and the lightning strikes.

Salt water is a good conductor which would easily convey charge. I would venture a guess that a glass/plastic/wood kayak would be a poor conductor and not favourable for localized charge buildup except that you are sitting above the surface of the water. Consider that the T-storm would likely create degrading seas, the wave peaks are taller than you in your boat and you are not so much a lone protrusion from a flat surface as just one more relatively short object bobbing around in the water. In fact, the biggest issue may be that you might be inclined to land in the degrading conditions of the sea. Landing itself might become a hazard, not to mention the aforementioned issue with the water's edge.

Finally, to the question posed, I don't think being under the boat would be a good idea in difficult seas nor could you assess the progress of your predicament. In my book tethering is right out.

[Bill Gwynn]

Here is a thread from a couple years ago on this subject.

http://www.nspn.org/forum/index.php?showto...htning&st=0

[leong]

What to do if all else fails, i.e. your on the water too far from bail out spots and TS have begun close to your position? Perhaps this might work! Carry a pair of neoprene gloves on your deck during this season. Put them on, capsize, wet exit and position yourself under the cockpit where you have plenty of air to breath. Most Brit boats are so shaped that the cockpit combing never gets completely sealed by the water upside down. Hold on the combing and wait until the storms pass. Would this work?

About 10 years ago (in mid-summer) I was paddling back to Lanes Cove from Plum Island when a TS began (I was about midpoint). In order to get low in the water I did exactly what you described (but no gloves ... what are they used for anyway?). My biggest fear besides the lightening was the chance of being run down by a power boat. I spent a lot of time peeking out in all directions to see if any boat was approaching. All worked out but I have no idea whether I reduced or increased my chances of surviving.

[JohnHuth]

Funny thing you should ask.

I was paddling in the Cranberries with Peter Brady a couple of days ago. We got to talking about risks, and he said that lightning was one thing that bothered him. I thought about it a bit and said that I was more concerned about smashing up against a rock in heavy surf.

The main thing is that I'm not aware of any lightning accidents of kayakers in the water. So, statistically speaking, it has to be small. There are lightning strikes to water strikes and I'd imagine a kayaker might get hit - on the other hand, sea water is a great conductor, and a human kayaker is more of an insulator. That could actually improve the odds on water.

There are some "tells" before a lightning strike - a loud buzzing noise, hair standing on end. I suppose you could roll over if you felt this coming on.

The post-script is this - the next day, I was paddling back into NE Harbor in a torrential downpour, I was in pretty open waters, and heard sound that was a lot like thunder - it might have been some guy just loading rocks in a truck, for all I know. In any case, I did paddle like hell to the mainland. I guess lightning bothers me, too.

[jonsprag1]

Lightening is the one thing that really frightens me on the water---I was caught earlier this year on Pushaw lake---rather largish one near Bangor---luckily I was close enough to an island so I could get ashore and wait it out. On the water I think I would paddle like hell to the nearest shore, maybe saying a silent prayer---don't think I would purposly capsize my boat than hide underneath in the cockpit---I'm not sure you could breath under there.

[Nick Schade]

Carry a pair of neoprene gloves on your deck during this season. Put them on, capsize, wet exit and position yourself under the cockpit where you have plenty of air to breath. Most Brit boats are so shaped that the cockpit combing never gets completely sealed by the water upside down. Hold on the combing and wait until the storms pass. Would this work?

So lightning has traveled a mile or so through thin air to hit you, what exactly are the gloves supposed to do? If you think they are an insulator that will block the current, try sending a current through a mile of air some time. Air is much better at protecting you from lightning than gloves and if air isn't enough don't think the gloves will change matters. Saltwater soaked gloves are pointless. Any charge weak enough to be blocked by the gloves, probably wouldn't kill you anyway.

Similarly, getting under your kayak will only serve to keep your head dry after you wet exit. If you are going to get in the water, you might as well keep your head out so you can see other dangers coming. A fiberglass kayak will do nothing to stop the lightning from hitting you. A carbon fiber boat may offer a little protection, but precious little.

I don't think your odds of being hit are changed much by being in or out of the boat. Personally I would rather be in the boat after being hit. At least I would be one capsize away from drowning instead of proceeding directly to that outcome.

I would stay in my boat and kiss the deck with my hands in the water under the boat, holding my body as tight to the deck as possible. A low profile will make a less attractive path to ground and your hands in the water will provide a better path to ground than your torso and the heart contained there-in.

[EEL]

For some irrational reason this discussion reminds me of the following urban legend. Two climbers in a tent hearing an avalanche thundering down at night and one starts frantically trying to get out of the tent until the other one asks if he knows whether they are in its path or not and does he know where to go to avoid it? Since the answer to both was , "No", the climber who thought he had to do something to be safe realized there was nothing to be done at that point since he was as likely to run into it as away from it.

Ed Lawson

[Gcosloy]

To all those that asked about the neoprene gloves, I did mistakenly think they might offer some additional insulation value. However the gloves might serve to provide a better grip on the boat if a storm comes up and you are in the water holding on.

[risingsn]

So lightning has traveled a mile or so through thin air to hit you, what exactly are the gloves supposed to do? If you think they are an insulator that will block the current, try sending a current through a mile of air some time. Air is much better at protecting you from lightning than gloves and if air isn't enough don't think the gloves will change matters. Saltwater soaked gloves are pointless. Any charge weak enough to be blocked by the gloves, probably wouldn't kill you anyway.

Similarly, getting under your kayak will only serve to keep your head dry after you wet exit. If you are going to get in the water, you might as well keep your head out so you can see other dangers coming. A fiberglass kayak will do nothing to stop the lightning from hitting you. A carbon fiber boat may offer a little protection, but precious little.

I don't think your odds of being hit are changed much by being in or out of the boat. Personally I would rather be in the boat after being hit. At least I would be one capsize away from drowning instead of proceeding directly to that outcome.

I would stay in my boat and kiss the deck with my hands in the water under the boat, holding my body as tight to the deck as possible. A low profile will make a less attractive path to ground and your hands in the water will provide a better path to ground than your torso and the heart contained there-in.

Hmm, I'm not so sure. Carbon is a great conductor so if anything it might facilitate a strike. I always, jokingly, tell students that in a T storm they should find a paddler with a long carbon paddle. I wouldn't want to put my hands in the water on either side of the boat. This creates a path (up one arm, through the body, & down the other)for the current to follow if it is traveling through the water. My 2 cents

[jeffcasey]

regarding saltwater:

keep in mind that cows often get killed during lightning storms by standing near tall trees....the ground currents which spread out from a strike on the tree cause very large voltage gradients in the ground....enough to be dangerous between the front and rear legs of the cow (which is probably oriented exactly the wrong way - long axis pointed towards the tree). Since cow is lower resistivity than ground (once the voltage is high enough to break through the skin), the current passes through the cow. Poof - roast beef.

the geometry isn't so clean for a kayaker in salt water near a lightning strike, but there will be currents in the vicinity, and they will be horrific. They will probably spread out faster than in the ground (wet ground surface tends to spread the currents out preferentially near the surface, while the salt water will spread it out in a hemisphere, so the current density will drop faster in water).

(Lots of caveats here...your skin resistance will make it easier for the current to flow around you, but the skin resistance drops in salt water...so no telling how much protection you have here.)

in any case, I'd much rather be out of the water than in it during a nearby strike. if you are unlucky enough to be the recipient of a direct head-on strike, all bets are off, and I doubt if it matters whether you are in, under, gloved, or wearing your flash-gordon underwear...you are probably toast. I agree that the wind is a more serious and more probable threat. I'd raft up with someone, hunker down low, and giggle whatever prayers you can invoke on your favorite lightening deity.

[jeffcasey]

So lightning has traveled a mile or so through thin air to hit you, what exactly are the gloves supposed to do?

Nick's comment also reminds me of a few years ago when I took my son to Water Country...a passing thunderstorm pulled everybody out of the water for an hour or so. The teenage expert employees told everybody to go sit in their cars for safety. We were parked under an awning at a snack bar and didn't leave. I tried to explain that we were safer here than in the car, since my car was a convertible. The employees kept telling me that the tires insulated the car from the lightning, so a convertible was as safe as a hardtop. I offered to pay tuition to send them back to school....

[FYI, the air gap afforded by the tires works as well as Nick's gloves...i.e. not at all. The safety in a car comes from being surrounded by a metal cage. They demo this pretty well at the Science Museum van de Graaf generator show if you want some noisy entertainment...]

[Nick Schade]

Hmm, I'm not so sure. Carbon is a great conductor so if anything it might facilitate a strike. I always, jokingly, tell students that in a T storm they should find a paddler with a long carbon paddle. I wouldn't want to put my hands in the water on either side of the boat. This creates a path (up one arm, through the body, & down the other)for the current to follow if it is traveling through the water. My 2 cents

Carbon fiber is an OK conductor, not a particularly great one, but again we are talking a mile of air vs a few feet of carbon. The difference between a carbon, wood or fiberglass paddle is negligible when compared to the empty space lightning is capable of crossing.

Instead of making stuff up I did a very little bit of research and found this lightning safety procedures (PDF) It is well worth reading to understand more about lightning.

The height above ground has been demonstrated to play a

prominent role in determining the strike probability. Therefore,

it is important to understand why minimizing vertical height is

critical in decreasing the chances of becoming a victim of

lightning. Warning signs of a high electromagnetic field and

imminent lightning strike include hair standing on end and

sounds similar to bacon sizzling or cloth tearing. If these

conditions occur, a cloud-to-ground lightning flash could strike

in the immediate area. Therefore, one should immediately

crouch in the lightning-safe position: feet together, weight on the

balls of the feet, head lowered, and ears covered. This position is

intended to minimize the probability of a direct strike by both

lowering the person’s height and minimizing the area in contact

with the surface of the ground. Taller objects are more likely to be

struck (but not always) because their upward streamer occurs first,

so that it is closer in proximity to the step leader coming

downward from the cloud.

Getting in this safety position while in a kayak is not practical. My theory of hands in the water was two fold: you are likely sitting with your feet and but in salty water i.e. you have a large contact area with the ground so making your arms a little bit better contact may make them the preferred path as opposed to your torso, and most of us are not so flexible that we can maintain a tight tuck without some help.

The first reasoning probably doesn't apply, But you do want to get as low as possible and in as tight a ball as possible. Kissing the deck and putting your fingers in your ears may be better.

If lightning is going to hit you, there is not much you can do to prevent it. The best idea is to get back to your car or into a building as soon as possible after you determine a storm is coming. If you are stuck out in a group, spread out a little so you don't make a target-rich environment and move towards safety. If you feel your hair standing up, pull yourself into tight ball and hope/pray for the best. Exiting your boat just puts you at risk for other problems without changing your odds of being hit.

[Phil Allen]

I completely get the tight ball (low to ground) and balls of feet (low contact area) recommendations but what's with the fingers in the ears?

Phil

[spuglisi]

I completely get the tight ball (low to ground) and balls of feet (low contact area) recommendations but what's with the fingers in the ears?

Phil

My guess is that a strike that close is going to be VERY!!!!!! LOUD!

[Nick Schade]

I completely get the tight ball (low to ground) and balls of feet (low contact area) recommendations but what's with the fingers in the ears?

Phil

From the link I posted earlier:

Injury from lightning can occur via 5 mechanisms. A

direct strike most commonly occurs to the head, and lightning

current enters the orifices. This mechanism explains why eye

and ear injuries in lightning-strike victims are abundantly

reported in the literature. The shock wave created by the

lightning channel can also produce injuries, such as rupture of

the tympanic membrane, a common clinical presentation in the

lightning-strike victim. Recommending that individuals

cover their ears while in the lightning-safe position may help to

mitigate this type of injury.

It is not so much to block the noise, but to block the current path. Lightning prefers to flow down the outside of an object. The inside of the ear may appear to be the "outside" in terms of current flow.

I presume it is also a good idea to keep your mouth shut while reciting your prayers.

[clayaway1]

One big thing i was always taught is if your in a group, to split up. If the worst happens and lightning strikes you, someone will still be able to get help. We all saw the news where lightning hit a cub scout tent and almost everyone one in the tent either was hurt or killed. Second, someone said fiberglass wouldnt do anything, Im pretty sure fiberglass is non conductive. The electrician that works at the construction company said that all electricians are supposed to use fiberglass ladders because they are non conductive. Just last thursday morning, we were on a jobsite by jenness beach in rye, and lightning struck about 50 to 100 yrds off of the beach in the water. the closest Ive ever been to a strike. Man was it loud!

[clayaway1]

One big thing i was always taught is if your in a group, to split up. If the worst happens and lightning strikes you, someone will still be able to get help. We all saw the news where lightning hit a cub scout tent and almost everyone one in the tent either was hurt or killed. Second, someone said fiberglass wouldnt do anything, Im pretty sure fiberglass is non conductive. The electrician that works at the construction company said that all electricians are supposed to use fiberglass ladders because they are non conductive. Just last thursday morning, we were on a jobsite by jenness beach in rye, and lightning struck about 50 to 100 yrds off of the beach in the water. the closest Ive ever been to a strike. Man was it loud!

sorry, i meant to say the electrician that works at the construction company I work at.