jonsprag1 Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I was paddling on the west side of MDI this Saturday with 4 other experienced paddlers that I have gone out with before --the morning started calm with good visibility and with a forecast of winds of no more than 5knots all day. We decided to paddle to Pond Island---about 6 miles from our starting point of Seal Cove. The sea was calm on our way to Pond, so on the way back we took a short detour to Tinker Island for lunch. As we approached Tinker the breeze began to stir and by the time lunch was over, it had picked up to about 20 knots out of the east south east and east. As we rounded the South end of Tinker---through quite a bit of rough water caused by the bar between Tinker and Bar Island, we could see that the trip back to Seal Cove(about2.5--3miles) was going to be quite a slog. The wind had freshened and was picking up speed comming down off Seal Mountain(just behind Seal Cove) 20 gusting higher with steep chop around 3 feet---I and one of the other paddlers, both of us relativly experienced, began having trouble with lee cocking---the ferry angle we had established required that we hold our bows about 10--20 degrees off the wind but my boat and my friend's wanted to go downwind---I've had this happen to me once before, in similar conditions, and now know enough to raise my skeg completely and correct the downwind motion by a series of forward sweeps on the downwind side followed by a bow rudder.(I also knew enough not to use a reverse sweep or ruddering stroke on the upwind side as this causes the boat to slow and the bow to raise, making the leecocking worse) However having to do this frequentily in rough seas can be quite tiring---eventually my friend George had his boat lee cock to the point where he could not get his his bow to point into the wind at all---he asked me to give his bow a nudge but as I was attempting to do that, he suggested we paddle down wind to an island on the downwind side of Seal Cove and then go up the side of the cove back to the launching site from there. We were able to do that with relativly little problem. My problem is that I want to be able to control the lee cocking better---I've been told that putting more weight in the forward compartment might help. I've also figured out that my boat, a WS Tempest 170, has a relativly high freeboard forward of the cockpit and thus has a tendancy to leecock more than other boats with lower freeboard. I have noticed that when I'm on a camping trip with my boat loaded with 100+ lbs of gear and me---178 pounds---I don't seem to have any trouble with lee cocking---possibly need to gain about 100 lbs, get a new, smaller boat with less free board(not really an option for me right now and besides, aside from the above problem I really like the T-170) or develop the endurance of a marathoner in rough seas ----any suggestions from those of you out there who may have experienced similar problems? The first time it happened to me, I wasn't able to turn my bow into the wind at all---this time because of the above mentioned forward sweep/bow rudder combination I was able to do it and keep on course but at a cost of becoming quite tired. Please feel free to let me know if there is a quick fix out there---or is this something I just have to live with until I gain a lot of weight or get a new boat? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccarlson Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 It seems unusual that you would experience that much leecocking. In my admittedly limited experience, this can often be corrected by changing the trim of the boat. Putting more weight forward (to "anchor" the bow more) will usually correct mild leecocking. Putting more weight in the stern will increase leecocking. Did you happen to have your boat loaded a bit stern-heavy that day? I usually do load mine a bit stern-heavy to reduce windcocking but have, on a couple of occasions, done this to some excess and experienced mild leecocking in some conditions. Also, if your seat position is at all adjustable, you might try moving it forward a little. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 ...in a pinch, simply leaning forward as much as possible while you paddle can help to correct the condition until you can get to a safe place to adjust the trim of the boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsprag1 Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 Actually adjusting the trim when loaded is not really the problem here---the boat never leecocks when it is loaded---it only does it when it is empty and only then when the seas are 2 feet or more with a short period---and the wind is over 20 knots--ie in steep seas with higher winds---what happens is that the bow will rise out of the water and the wind will catch it and point the boat downwind before I get a chance to correct it with a lean or a corrective forward sweep on the lee side(or a combination with both) I then have to do a series of forward sweeps on the lee side followed by a bowrudder and a forward stoke(to maintain speed) on the windward side---if I just have to do it once in a while, no problem but every other wave it does become exhausting after 45 minutes or so. And it only does this when I'm paddling 10--30 degrees off the relative wind---when I'm headed right into the wind or down wind I'm fine. Are you folks suggesting that I add some type of weight to an empty forward hatch when paddling in conditions? Of the people I was with---three were having no significant problem with leecocking and the fourth was having a harder time than me--of the three, two had rudders but the third not only had no rudder but no skeg either---what he did have was a very low foredeck on his kitbuilt boat. btw Mine does relativly well in following seas---no tendancy to weathercock much at all. finally both times when this has occured I was paddling a boat with nothing in either the rear or forward compartments---the only weight was either in the cockpit--me--on in the day hatch directly behind the cockpit---just my lunch---no more than a pound, a spare fleece and a paddle jacket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Although he said he will be out of touch for a couple of weeks, you might send a private message to the poster "Flatpick" in the paddling.net advice message board. He is the designer/tester of the Tempest and might have some thoughts. I have read that it was tested extensively in horrific conditions far beyond what most "serious" kayakers would paddle in before finalized to wring out any bad traits. So I doubt the boat is inherently problematic in terms of performance. That said, it is my inexperienced delusion we all paddle different boats in that they are sensititive to trim, paddler ergonomics and style which are unique. Talking to Gerry Smith about how he experimented with the seat location on his latest boat to find the right spot tells me paddler location is very important to how a boat handles in terms of weathercocking. Without a custom seat, we are left with a compromise that may or may not be close and can be trimmed out easily. apparently very slight weight shifts can affect handing quite a bit. Having a boat "pinned" or leecocking in difficult circumstances must be a very bad thing to experience. To me, ease of changing course and ease of maintaining a course when things are not pleasant are very desirable traits. I have paddled a boat or two that was not easy and weathercocked badly for me in modest winds, but became easy and more nearly neutral as the wind increased: and a boat that was easy and relatively neutral in modest winds, but became nearly "pinned" in more wind. All things considered I prefer the former to the latter, but if I only paddled in light wind, then the latter would be better. Pay your money and take your choice. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Would you mind saying what the other boats were? I think it is very hard to know why boats act as they do since we are obviously looking at and focused on what is going on above the water and the key might be what is going on with the hull under the water and about which we are likely rather ignorant. I suspect having enough stuff to be able to shift around five to ten pounds from bow to day to stern hatch is a good thing to help trim a boat. Are you saying as you were going downwind off about 30 degrees and as the steep wind wave passes under the hull the boat would yaw further downwind as the boat crested on the wave? I can see how that would be a lot less fun that the opposite which has been my experience on occasion. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Not a bad argument for bringing 30 lbs or so of kit even on day outings when it's not all needed: You can then adjust your trim by loading your compartments where you need the weight. In this instance, of course, loading the front compartment would be the thing to do. It rarely hurts to carry extra water anyway , so it might be a good idea having some water filled dromedaries (e.g. against the front bulkhead, on the bottom of the hull in this case) and then some float bags to inflate and lock them in their place so they don't roll around. If you need them they're there, if not, you can always empty the dromedary, especially on your truddge back tthe car from the put in. Another thing you could do is wedge something (jacket etc) behind your butt to push you a bit foreward in your seat, This may or may not be comfortable dependng on how you fit in your boat, and you could just slide forward with no backrest, but I have found that a little adjustment makes a big difference . I recently moved my seat forward @ 1 1/2 inches. and the boat handles differently, better in a lot of ways and my contact with thigh braces is better, but the boat does weathercock a bit now, easily fixed by loading most of my normal stuff in the dayhatch and rear compartment. Except when I paddle backwards... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donperry Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Lean forward into it & power stroke on the lee side as the each wave passes under your feet & knees. That applies a counteracting force at the same time the wind is acting on your bow and your boat is pivoting on the wave top. Change course to split the difference between your desired heading and directly into the wind. Or start with a course close to the wind and gradually fall off to a heading you can tolerate without getting exhausted. You surely made the right choice to extend the trip to a more sheltered course. Becoming exhausted can leave you unable to deal with the seas or whatever misfortune may come along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsprag1 Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 of the three boats that didn't seem to be having significant problems one was a Necky Eskia with a rudder, the other was some type of kitbuilt boat---about 17+ long again with a rudder and the third was a kitbuilt shearwater with no rudder or skeg, but as I said above it had an LV fordeck---the other boat having the problem was a kitbuilt boat---I think a CLC but dont know the model again with no skeg and rudder----I have no signicificant problem once I'm 35--40 degrees off the wind and have never had a problem with weather cocking---can run downwind and crosswind to my hearts content---also if I'm headed right into the wind there is no problem--its only on headings 5---25 or so degrees off the wind. hanks for the advice on contacting the designer---I'll send him an e-mail and hopefully he will have some good advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 >can run downwind and crosswind to my >hearts content---also if I'm headed right into the wind >there is no problem--its only on headings 5---25 or so >degrees off the wind. I suspect there is always some combination of wind and wave that turns a boat into some evil twin as it were. From boat descriptions sounds like you were out with the MDI paddlers. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsprag1 Posted June 4, 2007 Author Share Posted June 4, 2007 That's exactly who I was with---nice bunch of guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob C Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Hi Jon, I was also out Sunday with friends, in my Tempest 165, 20kt winds peaking to 25 and seas 2-5 ft out of Rye Harbor. I didn't have any problem with lee cocking (though I almost got blown over, a first!) but I also load my boat down quite a bit, both to offset my lack of weight and also per BCU 4* guidelines for safety equipment. The day hatch contains the most weight followed by the rear hatch. I'm a light paddler (148 lbs) and pack my gear as follows: front hatch: drybag with spare fleeces, pants, hat drybag with storm cag empty mesh gear bag day hatch Poland Springs spare water bottle, I think it's 64 oz (also useful for stretching neck gaskets) 2-3 Poland Springs 16-oz water bottles lunch including 2 vacuum flasks of hot tea (beats figuring out the plural of Thermos!) helmet and hood 2 Nalgene bottles with tools, ding stick, patches, etc. rear hatch dry back with more repair kit: spare hatches, deckline, bungee cord (heavy) dry back with first air kit, bivvy bag/shelter, Sam Splint (heavy) sometimes a spare paddle (broken-down Lendal) in addition to the one on deck When I have loaded the bow hatch heavily I've had trouble maneuvering, so I've stuck with the above procedure. Hope this helps, Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcosloy Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 Here is a cheap alternative to loading variable amount of ballast to either stern or bow. They fold up so you can fill them with just as much weight as you need. 2.5 gallons = 20 lbs. each max. http://www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDis...t_cat=undefined Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Millar Posted June 4, 2007 Share Posted June 4, 2007 I think Bob means Bag for back and Aid for Air -- although the whole shebang weighs a few pounds:) As for the leecocking: I paddle a RomanyLV and have been advised by those who know more than I ever possibly could to carry most of my gear-- like Bob,I never leave without a complete 4* kit although I've been accused of adding such nifty items as a microwave and a refrigerator to the mix -- in the front hatch. I usually have some lunch/snacks/2 litre of San Pellegrino water, sunscreen and assorted Nalgene bottles that contain quick fix First Aid kits and repair items in my day hatch. In the rear, I carry my empty mesh bag and my helmet plus any other junk that Bob can't fit in his boat.(we're married so we can say this stuff:)) I've not had a problem with leecocking. In the past I had some issues with weathercocking in my previous boats, but solved that with carrying water bottles/frozen cold packs in the back hatch to weight the stern a bit. Perhaps shifting your load around will help and carrying a bit more to weigh the boat down in wind. The Tempest is a great boat and fun to paddle. Deb M I have boats. Too many boats. Some of them may be for sale. Soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shewhorn Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 I'm also 180 pounds and my first boat was a Tempest 170. Even with some weight in the boat I found that it was simply too high volume a boat for me personally. I'd often notice that if we were paddling on a given course I'd have to put in a lot of edge and have the skeg down and do a bunch of sweep turns to get it to go in a straight line (unless paddling into the wind or downwind). Watching others... they'd have no skeg and a maybe have a little bit of butt cheek to one side or another to get their boats to track straight. For a 180 pound person that boat weathercocks like crazy (well at least in my experience). It's still the most comfortable boat I've paddled and it was a really nice boat to learn in and I certainly don't regret buying it but for me it was not a boat I wanted to paddle in any amount of wind, it was a real workout (at least more than it should have been). Yeah... you could throw ballast in there but anything more than your regular day paddling kit is a royal PITA and the extra weight makes it more awkward to handle by yourself when launching or landing. Had I bought a T165 instead I'd probably still have it. Still a very comfortable boat and much more manageable in the wind. The T170 has been replaced by an Aquanaut which is MUCH better behaved unloaded and is an absolute DREAM when packed full of camping gear (it lumbers along with 80 to 100 pounds of gear in it but responds to every little input... had it fully loaded in Casco Bay last week with 15+ knot winds and it was really great). I also paddle a Capella 161 which I'm still learning but I had it out today in the surf and chop and had a blast with it. It's quite well behaved in the wind. I'm not sure P&H had a 180 pound paddler in mind when they designed the 161 but hey... it works! Cheers, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shewhorn Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 >In the rear, I carry my empty >mesh bag and my helmet plus any other junk that Bob can't >fit in his boat.(we're married so we can say this stuff:)) Hmmm... that of course begs the question... just how much junk does Bob have in his trunk errr... ummm.... rear hatch? (sorry, I couldn't resist) :-D Cheers, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shewhorn Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 >That said, it is my inexperienced delusion we all paddle >different boats in that they are sensititive to trim, >paddler ergonomics and style which are unique. Talking to >Gerry Smith about how he experimented with the seat location >on his latest boat to find the right spot tells me paddler >location is very important to how a boat handles in terms of >weathercocking. Without a custom seat, we are left with a >compromise that may or may not be close and can be trimmed >out easily. apparently very slight weight shifts can affect >handing quite a bit. I can tell you that the T170 turns like nobody's business... when going backwards! Seriously, mine behaved like a Pintail going backwards (OK... exaggerating a bit but it was far more responsive to edge input when going backwards). I don't know if this is indicative of a seat that's been mounted to far aft but I was always baffled by how well it would turn on edge when going backwards vs. how slow it would turn when going forwards (my Aquanaut and Cap 161 in comparison are far more neutral in both directions than the T170). If you're keeping the 170 for some time to come going the custom route and moving the seat forward a bit might be somewhat helpful in tuning the boat to be more neutral. Once that's dialed in then you can start playing with the trim via ballast. Anyhow... I think Ed's onto something there but it would be really hard to rip out the seat in the 170 (not hard in terms of getting the job done... just hard because it's relatively comfy). Cheers, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsprag1 Posted June 5, 2007 Author Share Posted June 5, 2007 Thanks for the advice folks. I have written the designer of the tempest to find out what he thinks---if I get a response I'll post it here. Like I said earlier I've had this boat for 4 years now and really like it. Under most circumstances the volume is not a problem---particularly not a problem when I go on a five day trip and can easily pack every thing. I also like the performance of the boat going down wind, cross wind or directly into the wind---its the turning issue that I have that is bothersome when I'm 5 to 25 degrees off the wind and then only when the boat is empty--not a problem when full of camping gear--other than that the boat is a dream---It is particularly good in a quatering sea with waves and wind coming from the left or right rear quarter---absolutly minimal weather cocking. It wasn't a big thing or a significant problem last saturday---more of an annoyance which I would like to fix. Thanks for the suggestions---I suppose the best thing to do would be to have two or more boats. That means two things---convincing my SO that its ok to do that--and finding space to put two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 > Like I said earlier I've had this boat >for 4 years now and really like it. ....It >wasn't a big thing or a significant problem last >saturday---more of an annoyance which I would like to fix. In retrospect, I realize how helpful this thread and the one on P.net have been to cause me to rethink some things and reinforce an important point. Specifically, Don Perry and several on P.net had great, specific suggestions as to how to solve the problem through the craft of paddling. As you have said, the boat is without question a modern, world class hull that performs very well for you outside this one combination of conditions. So the issue is not the boat and the solution is not stuff nor trying to change the boat's performance by moving stuff about to address an isolated issue. The solution is becoming better at the craft of paddling. In this case, being able to apply the tool set of all those "skills" like specific strokes not in isolation as they are learned and practiced, which is after all basically useless and artificial in the grand scheme of paddling, but dynamically and in a fluid/blended manner to solve problems and to move the boat as we wish. To use them as tools to solve problems and dance the boat. It is the craft and not the acquisition of the tool set that makes one a good paddler. The descriptions of how to blend and time different strokes to solve the problem really brought that point home to me. When boats do not do what we want, it is possible the boat is not well designed, but more likely it is our lack of craft. By which I mean our inability to devise a solution from our paddling tool set and/or our insensitivity to how the boat works and what it is telling us. So thinking and reading about this and remembering similar incidents I have gone through, has been enlightening and reminded me of the importance of playing and experimenting on the water to develop our craft as opposed to finding external solutions which will invariably be less satisfactory, limited and limiting, and less adaptable to changing conditions. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsprag1 Posted June 5, 2007 Author Share Posted June 5, 2007 Definitly the problem could be with the paddler as opposed to the boat---if I was a larger person maybe I wouldn't be having this problem(ok really not much of a problem since in the 4 years I've been paddling the boat only happened twice) but also maybe the answer is to work on my skillset in those types of conditions--I know what to do and can do it---the question is for how long---without reaching the point of exhaustion---I suppose that most of us are in that boat(pun intended) On the paddling.net site a poster suggested exactly what you said---I've also been told here and on the other site that the 170 may be too large for me---never felt that way but hey who knows---I have seen a lot of people, including some female guides paddling the T-170, who were a lot smaller that me and were having no problem. Just keep working on it I guess BTW cant' seem to get through to flatpick---he has some automatic screening program on his e-mail which rejects my letters to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 >Definitly the problem could be with the paddler as opposed >to the boat-- Had no intent to say blame or fault was with paddler in this case, just commenting that our search for solutions should always start within. If this is only issue you have while paddling your boat, I have a long way to go to get close to your abilities. Seems to me the boat is the right boat for you and no need to listen to those who say otherwise. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted June 5, 2007 Share Posted June 5, 2007 Is it possible that you might have counteracted this lee-cocking by use of edging? (Edged into the wind, that is?) In addition to that, you might find it useful to move your grip on the paddleshaft slightly upwind, thus giving you more leverage on the downwind side of your boat. This change of position of your hands is and subtle; but it does mean that the downwind stroke is automatically a longer, more powerful one than the other. Any value here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsprag1 Posted June 5, 2007 Author Share Posted June 5, 2007 Possibly--what I have to do is go in conditions and with that angle into the wind and play---I frequently paddle in those types of waves and wind but don't often go into the 5--20 degree angle or when I do the wind is strong, but the waves are not particularly high or vice versa---3-4 foot waves but only 10--15 knot wind---anyway thanks for all the advice everybody and I'll keep you posted---if it only happens to me once every two years then its probably not going to be a serious problem---still it is something to work on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsprag1 Posted June 5, 2007 Author Share Posted June 5, 2007 never had a problem with weather cocking just lee cocking---In fact the boat going downwind with me has excellent manners both full and empty---I've had it in quartering breezes up the 25 knots--put the skeg halfway down and no problem at all---I'm 180+ or - a pound or two and 6' tall---according to all the specs the 170 should be ideal for me (and usually is) I suppose it is a question of developing my technique in those kind of waves and winds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scamlin Posted June 6, 2007 Share Posted June 6, 2007 I'm getting into this thread late, but the one time I paddled a WS Tempest 170, it was in almost identical conditions: gusty winds in excess of 20 KTS with a sharp chop. The boat was almost empty. I too found the boat hard to control in beam to quartering winds: the lee cocking was significant. I think there is something about the boat in these specific conditions. Other similar boats can react the same way. My old Necky Arluk III, also with a high foredeck and low afterdeck, almost took me out to sea at Blue Rocks in Nova Scotia in 1999. Same scenario: winds over 20 KTS, empty boat, excessive leecocking. It was early in my paddling career; at that point, the only way I could figure out how turn around was to accelerate backwards and use edging and momentum to get around. These incidents make a serious point: even if it happens only once every few years, uncontrollable leecocking can be dangerous in an offshore wind. In the Gulf of Maine, strong offshore winds show up every time a cold front blows through followed by strong NW winds. If you can't turn around, your only alternative to a long ride offshore is to paddle backwards all the way home. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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