alcoons Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 My wife is planning to paddle this summer and fits well into my Eddyline Nighthawk. I have been considering a boat that might be a bit better in larger waves and have more straight-ahead efficiency. We also need more room in one of our boats for camping. I love the fit of the Eddyline and enjoy paddling it. I am not looking for an all out expedition boat but a nice compromise. Weight does matter since I often load the boat on my Accord roof alone. After asking a few knowledgable paddlers and doing some reading online, I thought I would give a starting point as a P&H Capella 167. The P&H web site says the following about it: "This mainstay of the P&H Range has all of the design characteristics expected of a classic British sea kayak. Its moderate 'V' hull provides a good mix of tracking performance and comforting initial stability whilst soft chines give responsive edging coupled with confidence inspiring secondary stability. Like all kayaks in the Exploration range, the Capella is designed to excel as a sea kayaking all-rounder; featuring sufficient manoeuvrability to explore a coastline's nooks and crannies, whilst retaining plenty of speed for long open crossings." Any reactions? Other boats that I should look at? I am 5'8 190lbs (100% muscle or less). Obviously I have to get out and paddle whatever boats I am considering. But given our schedule that is not easy right now. So I though I would start here. Thanks for your comments, Al Al Coons Eddyline Nighthawk Red/White Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 >My wife is planning to paddle this summer and fits well into >my Eddyline Nighthawk. I have been considering a boat that >might be a bit better in larger waves and have more >straight-ahead efficiency. We also need more room in one of >our boats for camping. > >I love the fit of the Eddyline and enjoy paddling it. I am >not looking for an all out expedition boat but a nice >compromise. I think you should buy my Nighthawk which is for sale. I'll give you a great deal Seriously, it has a adequate space to camp from for more than a few days as its volume is within a cubic foot of the NDK Explorer and greater than many touring boats. It is also about as efficient a hull as one is likely to find among ordinary sea kayaks so it moves fast with little effort. I don't know what issue you have with large waves in one. The only issue I experienced is that due to its full bow it rides up and pounds down on short chop or going over steep swells. That is a function of the design and a tradeoff for other things. In terms of dealing with beam seas and rear seas it is quite good. Always seemed to surf down waves well. It does not paddle backwards as easily as many, but that was a design tradeoff too. Overall, it never did me wrong and kept me up when I did not deserve to be. Besides you like it and if fits well. Okay, if you won't get another Nighthawk, go try a Force 4. Not as playful, not as light, more boat than you need for weekend camping, and may seem a little tender with a 20.75 beam; but one of the best fast touring hulls around. If not a Force 4, try a Nordcapp LV. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin B (RPS Coach) Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Al, There's always the Explorer...you can't go wrong with it;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoons Posted April 24, 2007 Author Share Posted April 24, 2007 >Al, > >There's always the Explorer...you can't go wrong with it;) Tried it at the New To Kayaking Workshop. Did not fit well around the feet and seemed heavy. Al Coons Eddyline Nighthawk Red/White Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoons Posted April 24, 2007 Author Share Posted April 24, 2007 >>My wife is planning to paddle this summer and fits well into >>my Eddyline Nighthawk. I have been considering a boat that >>might be a bit better in larger waves and have more >>straight-ahead efficiency. We also need more room in one of >>our boats for camping. >> >>I love the fit of the Eddyline and enjoy paddling it. I am >>not looking for an all out expedition boat but a nice >>compromise. > >I think you should buy my Nighthawk which is for sale. I'll >give you a great deal > >Seriously, it has a adequate space to camp from for more >than a few days as its volume is within a cubic foot of the >NDK Explorer and greater than many touring boats. It is >also about as efficient a hull as one is likely to find >among ordinary sea kayaks so it moves fast with little >effort. I don't know what issue you have with large waves >in one. The only issue I experienced is that due to its >full bow it rides up and pounds down on short chop or going >over steep swells. That is a function of the design and a >tradeoff for other things. In terms of dealing with beam >seas and rear seas it is quite good. Always seemed to surf >down waves well. It does not paddle backwards as easily as >many, but that was a design tradeoff too. Overall, it never >did me wrong and kept me up when I did not deserve to be. > >Besides you like it and if fits well. > >Okay, if you won't get another Nighthawk, go try a Force 4. >Not as playful, not as light, more boat than you need for >weekend camping, and may seem a little tender with a 20.75 >beam; but one of the best fast touring hulls around. If not >a Force 4, try a Nordcapp LV. > > >Ed Lawson Thanks for your comments. I have heard the same thing about my Nighthawk. I reallyi love it. Have not camped in it but tried to load it once. Did not realize it had that much room. I have always been very aware of what you mentioned: "The only issue I experienced is that due to its full bow it rides up and pounds down on short chop or going over steep swells" since this inefficiency has the largest effect on the most physically demanding long trips. Maybe though I am overreacting. Perhaps I should just get my wife her own newish boat. Al Al Coons Eddyline Nighthawk Red/White Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 >I have always been very aware of what you mentioned: "The >only issue I experienced is that due to its full bow it >rides up and pounds down on short chop or going over steep >swells" since this inefficiency has the largest effect on >the most physically demanding long trips. Maybe though I am >overreacting. I suggest checking with a GPS and heart rate monitor before thinking this results in an inefficient ride. It is very easy to accelerate and easy to do the opposite. Makes it easy to assume it is not fast and efficient, but also easy to be fooled. With any boat if its not one thing, it is another. I doubt you will find a big difference at the end of a long day even under those specific conditions. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Wow Al, I can't believe that you let Ed talk you out of something new and different so easily! Of course I am a bit partial to P&H boats and think you should give the 167 a try. NESC is doing a demo day in May so that is an option. If you can't wait, head south to Collinsville this weekend or Kayak Center next weekend. Personally, I would never recommend that you have two of the same boats in the "fleet". Where is the diversity? You haven't expanded your options at all. Suz http://www.phpaddlers.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopefloats Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 When's the demo day? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcosloy Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 Suz, I'm familiar with the Capella 169. Is the 167 a redesigned 169? If so, what's changed? Demo day at CRC&K is every day! They have P&H. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 I believe it is the weekend on May 19/20. I don't know which day it is, Sat or Sun. Suz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoons Posted April 24, 2007 Author Share Posted April 24, 2007 >Wow Al, I can't believe that you let Ed talk you out of >something new and different so easily! > >Of course I am a bit partial to P&H boats and think you >should give the 167 a try. NESC is doing a demo day in May >so that is an option. If you can't wait, head south to >Collinsville this weekend or Kayak Center next weekend. > >Personally, I would never recommend that you have two of the >same boats in the "fleet". Where is the diversity? You >haven't expanded your options at all. > >Suz > >http://www.phpaddlers.com/ I am not quite that easy....just reacting to each idea. I agree with your points. Thanks for the input. Al Al Coons Eddyline Nighthawk Red/White Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsprag1 Posted April 24, 2007 Share Posted April 24, 2007 you know Heidi, you're going to run out of space on your signiture line if you keep just "trying" boats----I understand you have an old town XL adventurer and are unhappy with it---are you shopping for another kayak too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 The 169 is no longer being produced. The 167 has the newly designed cockpit which is a little longer than the 169 was (no more skinned shis!). 167 and the Cetus are the first of the P&H lineup to have the new skeg system which is pretty nearly unkinkable and has a ratcheting style mechanism that allows the paddler to dial in the exact amount of skeg needed. The hull is a shallower v than the 169. The volume in the bow and stern is more evenly balanced than the 169 was. more like the 161 and 163. That's right about Charles River, you can demo with them any day and Kittery Trading Post's demo day is in June. Hope this helps. Suz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shewhorn Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 >>Al, >> >>There's always the Explorer...you can't go wrong with it;) > >Tried it at the New To Kayaking Workshop. Did not fit well >around the feet and seemed heavy. Yeah... the weight of the Explorers seems to vary from boat to boat by about +/- 50 pounds ;-) (uh oh.... I'm gonna get clobbered :-) Of course now I'm going to suggest my boat (everyone likes to suggest their own boat :-) )... the Aquanaut. I'm 5'9" and about 185 so I'm pretty close to you size wise. My feet are 8.5 to 9ish and in the winter I wear a larger boot to fit my wool socks and Goretex booties into and I have no issues with room for the feet. The Aquanaut is 17'7" and is a great expedition boat. The Avocet is a good deal shorter at 16', has more rocker, but is still big enough that you can camp out of it although if you're camping on a very frequent basis it might not be the best option (slower, not as much space although... that could easily be remedied by moving the front bulkhead back). If you're mostly doing day trips but only the occasional camping trip it's probably worth a look. Wilderness Systems Tempest 165 Pro. I had a 170 in plastic... way to big of a boat for me but I tried the 165 Pro (glass) and it was a nice boat. Unless you go custom IMO their seats are the most comfortable. If you're always going to have a LOT of weight in the boat then the 170 maybe but at 185 I just couldn't make that thing go in a straight line if there was the slightest bit of wind. It was even an issue with full skeg. Impex Force 4 and Force 5. There's something about those boats that I like. They feel really fast (that's probably what I like) although I'm not sure if that's actually the case (no data to back that claim up with). They track really well and would probably make a great expedition boat. I really wanted something a bit more nimble though and while the Aquanaut is not what I'd call a nimble boat it's a good mix (although I want a NIMBLE boat in my fleet and am currently salivating over the Anas.... with a keyhole... KEYHOLE KEYHOLE KEYHOLE (I'm sure that each mention of KEYHOLE is like twisting a knife in Bill's back)). Anyhow back to the Impex... what I didn't like about them was that it feels like it gets exponentially more difficult to edge with the more edge that you apply. To me this translates to fatigue. I don't want to have to work hard to put my boat on edge. Check it out though.... it might agree with you. Cheers, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 ..... (although I want a NIMBLE boat in my fleet and am >currently salivating over the Anas.... with a keyhole... >KEYHOLE KEYHOLE KEYHOLE No, No, No. Heretic, recant now or you will be visited by the Inquisition. Seriously, spend time in an Anas. The OC is sooo nice and it is soo right for the what and how of that boat. Actually, I do not think of it as nimble. To me the Pintail, Avocet, and even Nighthawk are nimble compared to the Anas. I think of the Anas as responsive. It is tightly coupled to the sea and paddler. I read once that despite its beauty on the water, paddling the Anas is not like a date with the Prom Queen. It is like a date with the Prom Queen's wild sister. Modesty prevents my recounting the remainder. > Anyhow >back to the Impex... what I didn't like about them was that >it feels like it gets exponentially more difficult to edge >with the more edge that you apply. To me this translates to >fatigue. I don't want to have to work hard to put my boat on >edge. Check it out though.... it might agree with you. Interesting, I would never describe a Force 4 that way. Just goes to show how different boats feel different to different people. Which in turns shows how important it is to try out lots of boats as they all have personalities and the trick is to find one in harmony with yours. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoons Posted April 25, 2007 Author Share Posted April 25, 2007 I have a friend with a Current Designs Gulfstream for sale. Reactions in terms of my needs or just good reading - you all are great?!? Al Eddyline Nighthawk Red/White Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 >and Kittery Trading Post's demo day is in June. If you are serious about a boat, KTP will let you paddle a boat anytime in the little tidal pond next to the store, but that will tell you only a little about a boat...then again that is true with most demo sites. Have never done it but the Charles River deal of renting the boat and taking it out where and within reason doing what you want seems a nice option to really demo a boat. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 >167 and the Cetus are the first of the P&H lineup to have >the new skeg system which is pretty nearly unkinkable and >has a ratcheting style mechanism that allows the paddler to >dial in the exact amount of skeg needed. Suz, Are there any pictures or more detailed descriptions of this skeg on the web that we can see. Will this also be moved into the 173 and if so do you know when that will start? Thanks -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 AL, I think the new Capella 167 is designed as a (sort of) Capella 163 for larger people. At your size you probably span the weight for both boats (you’d be towards on the high end of the 163 and towards the low end of the 167) so it would be a matter of your preference; if you like more room for your body and your gear, the 167 would be preferable, if you like a smaller, handier ride, the 163 would be preferable. The Capellas are a great series; a number of NDK and Romany-philes have moved on to Capellas , partly because they have superior build construction, they’re a bit faster and they hold very comfortably on edge. I guess that’s what people call “lively”, so the Capella is a nice lively boat. (I've paddled the 163 but not the 167) The Romany and Explorer have a different feel, when on edge they do all the things kayaks should do, but you have to work a bit to hold them on edge; relax your hips, thighs etc and the hull plops down from on edge upright. This same attribute probably is what makes them so easy to roll ( in the second half of the roll, the Romany feels like it springs upright on its own!): the Explorer/Romany hull seems to want to be upright, so In rough water, you just stay relaxed and the boat kind of takes care of you, hence it’s many paddlers boat of choice in rough water, and in conditions where you start getting on the outside of your comfort "box" . But some paddlers dislike that: the hull of the Capella likes to be on edge, so if you’re into edging and getting the most out of your hull, Capellas are a great choice. Like most problems in life , these issues are all resolved by paddling rather than talking about it, so I'll take the "yak" out of "kayak" and shut up for now... Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoons Posted April 25, 2007 Author Share Posted April 25, 2007 I agree about paddling flat water not telling the entire story. In particular, you cannot tell the boats characteristics in waves and chop and that's what we do. Al Al Coons Eddyline Nighthawk Red/White Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shewhorn Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 > > >..... (although I want a NIMBLE boat in my fleet and am >>currently salivating over the Anas.... with a keyhole... >>KEYHOLE KEYHOLE KEYHOLE > >No, No, No. Heretic, recant now or you will be visited by >the Inquisition. Seriously, spend time in an Anas. (MONTY_PYTHON) Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!! (/MONTY_PYTHON) (horn stab) >The OC is sooo nice and it is soo right for the what and how of >that boat. The OC is indeed nice BUT... the keyhole appeals to me from a self rescue POV. In an ideal world I could have a rescue assist but even if someone is relatively close by, that rescue might not come as fast as I want it (and aside from that I like being self reliant). With a keyhole I can scurry back on into that cockpit within a few seconds. Cowboy up on the Anas (ahhh.... let the jokes begin) with the OC is a little more... shall we say amusing? While I can do it on flat water (with a severe atomic wedgie due to the wedgie inducing foam that Bill so sinisterly installed in his boat (THAT is why he always wears a full wetsuit in the pool.... it's wedgie proof)) I wouldn't want to depend upon my ability to pull that off in conditions, I think my self rescue in conditions would pretty much be relegated to a re-enter and roll with an OC (or a paddle float... which I REALLY wouldn't want to have to resort to). >Actually, I do not think of it as nimble. To me >the Pintail, Avocet, and even Nighthawk are nimble compared >to the Anas. I think of the Anas as responsive. It is >tightly coupled to the sea and paddler. Holy crap is the Pintail nimble. TOO nimble for what I want. Interesting re: the Avocet v. Anas. I really need to hop into both when there's some surf. What I'd really like to have is something that surfs really really well (for a long boat that is) that also has some versatility so if I get bored with the surf and want to go play in rocks or if I want to paddle a few miles to where I think there might be better surf, I can do so. The Cap 161 wasn't bad (felt really quick for such a short boat and as a bonus it's small enough that my GF could use it as well (5', 105 lbs... a tiny creature)) but the layup seems a bit flimsy to me compared to the layups of the Valley boats (I'm thinking that not if but when I screw up my timing and land on a rock the Valley might be less prone to getting a hole in it... or at least not as big of a hole in it but... I have no solid evidence to go on there... I could always do Kevlar and that would certainly be strong but repairs from what I understand are a bit more difficult with Kevlar). > I read once that >despite its beauty on the water, paddling the Anas is not >like a date with the Prom Queen. It is like a date with the >Prom Queen's wild sister. Modesty prevents my recounting >the remainder. (MONTY_PYTHON) And after the spankings.....(/MONTY_PYTHON) I don't know... that sounds like good fun to me!!! :-) >Interesting, I would never describe a Force 4 that way. >Just goes to show how different boats feel different to >different people. Very true... just out of curiosity, how does the Impex feel to you? > Which in turns shows how important it is >to try out lots of boats as they all have personalities and >the trick is to find one in harmony with yours. Indeed! Thanks for the input. Cheers, Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 > >Very true... just out of curiosity, how does the Impex feel >to you? > I don't think I have paddled it since last Oct. so memory fuzzy. I was always pleased at how well it turned on edge given how well it tracked on level. I don't recall any particular effort to put it on edge or any resistance when taking it over for a sculling brace, but I essentially don't use knee effort to edge a boat. It seemed to rotate on its logidutinal axis easily. Not as easy as a hull with a more V or rounded shape perhaps, but I don't recall a big shoulder either. Guess I need to get it out and see if my memory has slipped even more in my dotage. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 Jason, All I know on the skeg change is that eventually it will be incorporated into all the boats. It will be done as an in-line change. I know that doesn't tell you much but it's all I know at this point. As to a better description, here is what I can say. It goes down with the bungee and comes back with a high tension line. It is really hard to break, not to say some people couldn't but... You can simulate hitting a rock or running up on the beach and it doesn't break or jam. The skeg has a sort of ratcheting mechanism to allow you to dial in where you want it. Also means you can't deploy it by mistake. You have to consciously pinch the mechanism to move it. Suz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 Suz, Thanks for the writeup, I am going to have to take a look at one soon. As I haven't sold my 2nd shadow yet, I am not yet ready to oder my new P&H 173. I needed to know if I should do it with the old or new skeg. It sounds like the new skeg, as I way too good at breaking normal wire skegs. Thanks -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoons Posted April 27, 2007 Author Share Posted April 27, 2007 >I have a friend with a Current Designs Gulfstream for sale. Any one have one? Feelings about the Gulfstream? Thanks, Al >Eddyline Nighthawk >Red/White Al Coons Eddyline Nighthawk Red/White Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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