Wing Paddlers

[mattdrayer]

Just got back from a sprint (HIIT) workout -- four rounds of ten sets of ten-second sprints with fifty seconds rest (4x10x10[50]) -- since we've been talking about feather angle it was on my mind and I really tried to focus on my stroke during both the high and low intensity components.  I realized I'm not really happy with the ~62.5 right-feather, it just doesn't feel right on my left side.  So I went back to R67.5 and it felt smoother but I could see the blade was opened up too far and not drawing through the water cleanly like my right side.  The angle definitely needed to be dialed-down.  Back to R60, and I could feel some cavitation (rattle) but the blade was moving through the water better.  So I decided to go with a drastic change and went all the way to R45.  Wow, what a difference, my left side stroke felt almost exactly like my right side stroke, and the blade was going through the water cleanly, and my stability/tracking actually improved a bit although I did have a light following breeze at the end of the workout.  I could feel new fatigue on my left side, too, so something was definitely going on there  

I'll have to experiment with the R45 feather more to see if it's an actual improvement, but my first impression is that it is a good move from where I was at.

https://www.endomondo.com/users/2312439/workouts/804777843

Edited September 13, 2016 by mattdrayer

[mattdrayer]

2 hours ago, josko said:

Who are the go-to forward stroke coaches in the area (besides Wes Echols)?  I'm thinking I could use a round of wing blade forward stroke lessons.

arg I don't like the handle-tagging mechanism of this board -- I keep posting before I'm done writing   anyway, trying again:

@josko there are a couple people who I would recommend.  Sean Rice is a world-class paddler from South Africa who has been hosting summer workshops in New England for a couple years now (Newport in August).  Also there are a couple kayak clubs in the greater Northeast area you might contact, such as Rockaway Olympic Canoe and Kayak Club which also hosts a summer workshop for stroke technique.  They use ICF boats (K1, K2, K4) which will also help you with stability!

I would also highly recommend attending one of the Lighthouse to Lighthouse Race technique clinics.  They are coming up on Sunday 9/18 (this weekend, hurry!)  -- Jesse Lishchuk and Austin Kieffer are putting on great workshops and yes they are surfski paddlers but if you can get past that for a couple hours you'll get some fantastic instruction on stroke/wing technique  

Edited September 13, 2016 by mattdrayer

[leong]

On 9/12/2016 at 10:00 AM, mattdrayer said:

I'll also add that feather angle is basically a dial for tuning the curve of the wing blade such that you generate optimal flow of water during your stroke.  It's similar to sailing, where you use the sheet to set your sail juuust right, so that it has the ideal shape in the context of your course and the wind direction to generate optimal lift.  So it's really important when you're experimenting with feather to be watching for clues that you're not getting optimal flow.  I look for things like water splashing on entry/exit, blade feels wobbly vs. smooth/firm during stroke, cavitation during stroke (feels like a rattle), and average speed on a known TT course is lower than normal.

My two cents:

I disagree that feather angle has anything to do with how a well-placed blade moves through the water. But feather angle might affect how you place your blade in the water and that will affect how the blade moves through the water..

For me, feather angle was a compromise between what was most comfortable for wrist flexion and my ability to brace and roll. I assume that for most paddlers no feather angle is best for bracing because both a left and right brace are identical. But, like me, some people require some feather angle to avoid too much wrist motion. I wish I would be more comfortable with no (0) feather angle.

-Leon

PS
I’m disregarding the air-drag consideration for feather angle here.

 

[josko]

I'm a slowpoke, but still feel good about yesterday's run: WH to Cuttyhiunk, r/t, 30.03 miles, 5:28:37 in an Explorer with an Ikelos.  Lots of room to grow, but 5:30's been my time to beat for a while now.

I've been tempted to go down to the lighthouse-to-lightouse race, but am otherwise tied up this weekend: https://www.kayakwaveology.com/event/woods-hole-races-and-over-falls-advanced/

 

Edited September 13, 2016 by josko

[mattdrayer]

2 minutes ago, leong said:

But feather angle might affect how you place your blade in the water and that will affect how the blade moves through the water..

Yes I agree this is the crux of it -- by tuning the feather angle you are positioning the blade properly at the beginning of your stroke (ie, the "catch") and as you move through the stroke you are trying to maintain that initial blade position as best as you can.  So there's an ideal angle for the blade to enter and travel.  If the blade is not positioned properly at the start or if you alter the position during the stroke you will experience wobbling, rattling, etc. which is essentially the force you've worked so hard to generate being whisked away  A paddle with a tunable feather angle gives you a tool to offset a less-than-perfect catch and/or stroke such that you can approximate the ideal as best as possible.  Maybe the ideal is zero-feather, I don't know, I have much to learn about it.

[mattdrayer]

43 minutes ago, josko said:

I've been tempted to go down to the lighthouse-to-lightouse race, but am otherwise tied up this weekend: https://www.kayakwaveology.com/event/woods-hole-races-and-over-falls-advanced/

Wow I've never heard of Autumn Gales -- now THAT sounds like a cool event!  I've added it to the Boston Paddling Meetup Group Calendar  

(edit: Sorry that ^^ was a bit of a non-sequitur) 

Edited September 13, 2016 by mattdrayer

[leong]

49 minutes ago, mattdrayer said:

  Maybe the ideal is zero-feather, I don't know, I have much to learn about it.

I think it's ideal for bracing considerations. But maybe not for the ergonomics of the blade catch or wind drag. I totally agree with all you said this time.

[leong]

1 hour ago, josko said:

I'm a slowpoke,

I

Slowpoke indeed. It's impressive. I'm sitting here drooling (with a broken fibular bone from a fall that twisted my ankle).

[josko]

That's the run on which I quit wearing my towbelt. (and I'm dying to see what my new Taran and Epic wing will do to the time.)

Oh, and the Gales are awesome IFF (if and only if) you like rough water.

Edited September 13, 2016 by josko

[leong]

7 hours ago, josko said:

That's the run on which I quit wearing my towbelt. (and I'm dying to see what my new Taran and Epic wing will do to the time.)

Oh, and the Gales are awesome IFF (if and only if) you like rough water.

Josko,

When Olympic sprint paddlers switched over to wing paddles their speed increase was about 2%. But they’re paddling in close to laboratory conditions (short distances with no waves). But variability of ocean conditions on different days might cancel any noticeable differences between two types of paddles. So don’t feel bad if your “faster” paddle blade isn’t always the faster paddle blade on a different day.

-Leon

 

[mattdrayer]

That's the maddening thing about upgrading our equipment and obsessing over elements like feather angle -- as soon as the wind realizes you're trying to see if you are even a tiny bit faster than last time based on a change it shifts around to your bow and ruins everything.  And it doesn't help that the water is in on the plan as well.  

[Inverseyourself]

On September 13, 2016 at 1:21 PM, josko said:

That's the run on which I quit wearing my towbelt. (and I'm dying to see what my new Taran and Epic wing will do to the time.)

Oh, and the Gales are awesome IFF (if and only if) you like rough water.

Did you quit wearing the tow belt before or after this trip? If you wore it during the trip, that would explain your snail-like 5.5 mph ??????

[josko]

Even in the day hatch, it feels like it's anchoring me to the earth.   Wonder how long before we start counting ounces on towbelts, the way bicyclists do on derailers?

On paddle efficiency: I'm convinced my Cyprus is 2min/hr slower than Ikelos (in calm water). So that's 3% (speed) difference and definitely noticable over ~dozen runs.  So if the wing is 2% faster than my Ikelos, it should be absolutely noticable.  I did try it with a Stellar mid wing a few seasons back, and found it was actually a hair slower, maybe.  I'm sure my stroke is at issue, but I'm also finding the Epic mid a better match for me overall than the Stellar.

Edited September 15, 2016 by josko

[mattdrayer]

2 hours ago, josko said:

Wonder how long before we start counting ounces on towbelts, the way bicyclists do on derailers?

...and then throw the derailleur away altogether in favor of a single speed setup ?

[Inverseyourself]

On a different note: BCU-5* style surfski rescue:

 

[leong]

Wow, I'd rather be in a sea kayak with a bombproof roll.

[josko]

I'm noticing a ton of surfski folks don't wear pfd's. I spoke to one recently, and learned that since they are leashed to their skis, the skis act as flotation (instead of a PFD). It looks like the same goes for SUP's???  Frankly, I never considered that being leashed to my kayak would absolve me from the need to wear a PFD. What am I missing here?

[mattdrayer]

You have to keep in mind that many surfski folks are coming from ICF/K1, lifesaving, and even SUP backgrounds -- PFDs are not necessarily an integral piece of gear to them the way they are to people who come to surfski from kayaking.  For the most part I can understand their side of the argument when it comes to flatwater racing or even open ocean racing when conditions are benign, because most PFDs impede your stroke at least a little.  That said, IMHO, simply being attached to a ski doesn't keep your head above water if you have been knocked unconscious when falling off of said ski, and I tend to fall off a lot, so I always wear my PFD.

I also don't leash myself to the ski, and I don't leash my paddle to the ski, either -- not using leashes is something most surfski peeps think is insane, but in my experience the leashes are just entanglement hazards, and they get in the way of remounting.

Edited October 14, 2016 by mattdrayer

[josko]

You do realize that a type III PFD is not intended to turn an unconscious user face up...

[mattdrayer]

Yes, but it has a higher probability of doing so than a bungee cord attached to my ankle.

[leong]

On 10/14/2016 at 8:39 AM, josko said:

I'm noticing a ton of surfski folks don't wear pfd's. I spoke to one recently, and learned that since they are leashed to their skis, the skis act as flotation (instead of a PFD). It looks like the same goes for SUP's???  Frankly, I never considered that being leashed to my kayak would absolve me from the need to wear a PFD. What am I missing here?

You could argue that a sea kayak is a pretty good flotation device too, as long as the hatches don't flood.

[josko]

"...because most PFDs impede your stroke..."

I'm now wondering just how much an impedance to paddling a PFD is. Has anyone looked just how much time not wearing one could shave in a time trial? 

[leong]

7 hours ago, josko said:

"...because most PFDs impede your stroke..."

I'm now wondering just how much an impedance to paddling a PFD is. Has anyone looked just how much time not wearing one could shave in a time trial? 

When Lisa and I trained in the Concord River she sometimes didn't wear a PFD because it inhibited her rotation. She felt the difference but I don't think we ever timed the difference. There was always at least a 1-minute difference between our 8.6-mile runs (probably due to wind). She also hates to wear a wetsuit for the same reason.

[josko]

Came up on a (Epic V10) surfski paddler at Ft. Wetherill this weekend. No PFD, no wet suit, air <50F, water 60F, 3-5' surf.  I don't get it.

[Phil Allen]

2 hours ago, josko said:

Came up on a (Epic V10) surfski paddler at Ft. Wetherill this weekend. No PFD, no wet suit, air <50F, water 60F, 3-5' surf.  I don't get it.

Kind of like the XC ski racers out training in lycra in the backcountry at -10.  The exhausted heat is more than enough to keep them warm, as long as they don't stop.  What's that saying "god looks after fools and little children"?