leong Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 32 minutes ago, jason said: Just make sure you don't pay for the full paddle upfront... http://www.surfski.info/forum/1-general/18374-did-onno-paddles-steal-my-money.html http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/showReviews.html?prod=646 Good point. Onno is a one-man operation. It's sort of like dealing with an old fashioned hardware store vs. Home Depot. Nevertheless, there are probably horror stories dealing with big retailers too. Onno's foot bar is well designed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 20 minutes ago, leong said: Good point. Onno is a one-man operation. It's sort of like dealing with an old fashioned hardware store vs. Home Depot. Nevertheless, there are probably horror stories dealing with big retailers too. Onno's foot bar is well designed. The website isn't too well setup. http://www.onnopaddles.com/copy-of-sup-canoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 4 minutes ago, jason said: The website isn't too well setup. http://www.onnopaddles.com/copy-of-sup-canoe You're right, but you should have seen what it looked like 5 or 6 years ago. Like a disorganized hardware store. Now at it has useless flowers for you viewing enjoyment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 (edited) @josko I used an Ikelos for a whole season before I got the wing paddle. At first I saw no difference, either but over time I have seen my speed increase and I know I still have a lot of runway even with the same paddle -- it certainly takes practice, probably a lifetime. I actually tried using my Ikelos paddle last year for a session just to see if it was something I'd even want to hang onto -- I was surprised at how "slippery" the blade was in the water. I had a really hard time keeping it still so I could twist on it and move the boat forward. I actually thought to myself that I should try another Blackburn in the SK class but use a wing paddle to see if I can beat my time from 2012, which I did with the Ikelos. @Inverseyourself I think the Mid paddle is a good place to start (or any comparably-sized paddle from another vendor). The Small-Mid would be good if you wanted to up your cadence, but it sounds like you've got plenty of power in your core to leverage. I'm 6'1" and currently 165lbs (a bit too lean for me) and the only reason I'm thinking about a Small-Mid is to try and get my cadence up a little more for 10k or longer races. And I agree that Onno makes a great footplate -- he's definitely a one-man shop, or at least was four years ago when I bought my footplate, and I found him professional and very communicative but I would not expect a quick turnaround. If you want an Onno product the best thing to do is call and talk to him, get an idea of the queue, how far out he's delivering to people, etc., and decide if you want to get in line. Edited August 29, 2016 by mattdrayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josko Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 What length Ikelos and Mid-wing do you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 1 hour ago, josko said: What length Ikelos and Mid-wing do you use? The Ikelos is a two-piece 210cm straight shaft. The Epic Mid is the Club Carbon model, 205-215cm typically set to 211cm and slightly less than a 60-degree right feather. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josko Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 !What are the thoughts about wrapping friction tape around the shaft? I notice lots of surf ski folks do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 (edited) Actually that's an older habit that a lot of us have gotten away from doing after taking some classes with guys like Ben Lawry and Sean Rice. It's one of those things that sounds like a good idea but in practice is not, because the tape really just accelerates blister formation. What you will probably see now is a couple wraps of tape about an inch wide on the left and right sides of the shaft to function as boundaries for hands to keep from sliding up and down the shaft. I've set mine about an inch wide of my hands on each side. So it's like: Left Blade [space] tape [1" space] left hand [1" space] tape [middle of shaft] tape [1" space] right hand [1"space] tape [space] Right Blade Some people will also very slightly scuff up the hand locations with a very fine sandpaper (400+ grit), and more recently I've heard that some people are using surf wax which is probably the better approach, imho. At the moment I don't have anything in the way of grip/friction material, and it hasn't been a problem as long as the tape boundaries are in tact. I've noticed my hand tends to travel if I lose one, so a bit of wax would probably be a good addition. Edited September 2, 2016 by mattdrayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted September 3, 2016 Author Share Posted September 3, 2016 Question related to surf ski transportation: Does anyone know how much a surf ski on a roof rack is allowed to overhang the front/back of the vehicle? Is 3 feet front and three feet back still legal, provided I use colorful flags to mark the ends of the ski? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 Oh man I think I must be completely breaking the rules -- I drive a Wrangler and the ski rides inverted on top with the tail hanging off the back probably four or even more feet. I do attach an orange flag to the end, and overall the boat is about 6.5ft high. No one has ever mentioned anything to me about it, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfolster Posted September 3, 2016 Share Posted September 3, 2016 I am not sure of the absolute specifics, but basically, any object extending beyond 3' of the vehicle (bumper?) is required to be clearly identified with a red flag. I do not know of any rule about a maximum extension beyond the vehicle, but I doubt you should be concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted September 3, 2016 Author Share Posted September 3, 2016 On August 28, 2016 at 4:13 PM, jason said: Anybody make a 20+ Foot beginners ski that accepts people with long legs? V8 Pro (why not V9?): Noticeably less twitchy than the V10 Sport, longer and narrower than the V 8, width and length between V8 and V10 Sport (V8 Pro:19'L, 19.9"W, V8: L18', W21.25, V10 Sport: L 20", W18.9"). Works for inseam 35". But you have to try the seat (bucket), width can be an issue for us bigger guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 On 9/3/2016 at 3:13 PM, Inverseyourself said: V8 Pro (why not V9?): Noticeably less twitchy than the V10 Sport, longer and narrower than the V 8, width and length between V8 and V10 Sport (V8 Pro:19'L, 19.9"W, V8: L18', W21.25, V10 Sport: L 20", W18.9"). Works for inseam 35". But you have to try the seat (bucket), width can be an issue for us bigger guys. I was told that the epic might not be the best fit for me as the seat pans tend to be narrow. My inseam is 36". I was told that Fenn might have a boat that would have a more appropriate seat pan. My friend is going to talk with her friend in NY who paddles a Fenn and is almost my size as to what boats I should try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted September 6, 2016 Author Share Posted September 6, 2016 I can confirm that. The V8 Pro's bucket is just right for me, but only just. Inseam 36" would be possible but pushing it. My remeasured inseam is 35" and the foot plate is all the way forward with knees still at an acceptable angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted September 6, 2016 Share Posted September 6, 2016 So @Inverseyourself does this mean you're going to be adding a V8 Pro to your signature soon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted September 6, 2016 Author Share Posted September 6, 2016 Matt: Let's just say that I have a new kind of appreciation for your Cape to Cape-run in the conditions you completed it in. I strongly believe that surf skiing complements sea kayaking and vice versa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Agreed! Definitely not an either-or -- great fun to be had in both Speaking of fun, I've taken the V10 out for four days straight at this point -- Saturday was a run out to Halfway Rock and back from Marblehead Harbor, Sunday was a downwinder across Nahant Bay from Dread Ledge to Long Beach, and the past two days I've been catching some pretty awesome rides on the giant waves rolling into the Swampscott/Lynn beaches. Talk about an all-around, do-everything kind of boat! Couldn't be happier Cheers, Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josko Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 Is there a surfski community on Cape Cod? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted September 7, 2016 Share Posted September 7, 2016 I don't know of a community, per se, but PM me and I can give you the contact info for my friend Chris who lives in Falmouth -- he paddles a V10 Sport and also has a Stellar SR for friends to use. Two other guys I know spend time in Wellfleet and Orleans, and there is Dana Gaines in MV. Actually if you subscribe to neoceankayakracing@yahoogroups.com you might be able to hook up with some people on the Cape that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josko Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 What's the latest thought wrt feather? I'm used to my 60 degree left, but as I get used to a mid-wing, it might be time to change feather angle as well, if there's any reason to do so. I've heard that wing paddlers are trending towards no feather. Is there any truth to that, and if so, why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 Feather is often discussed and I think everyone is constantly experimenting with it -- I definitely recommend getting a paddle with infinitely adjustable feather. When I first started using a wing I had no idea what to use for feather. My old paddle had zero feather, so I started with that. After I developed solid 1mi and 10k time trial baselines I started experimenting. I quickly decided right feather was better for me versus left, and that is still the case. Then I pushed the angle all the way to 90 degrees and worked it back over a series of TTs until I was getting the best result. That happened to be right around 67.5 degrees -- halfway between 60 and 75. I've since tuned it a bit more toward 60, maybe 62.5, but any more than that and I notice my average speed dropping off. I think that this particular feather angle works for me not because it's ideal, but rather because of my imperfect technique -- my left stroke is definitely not as clean as my right. I can hear the difference especially when I'm doing sprints/HIITs. So I clearly still have a lot to learn when it comes to wing technique ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 (edited) I'll also add that feather angle is basically a dial for tuning the curve of the wing blade such that you generate optimal flow of water during your stroke. It's similar to sailing, where you use the sheet to set your sail juuust right, so that it has the ideal shape in the context of your course and the wind direction to generate optimal lift. So it's really important when you're experimenting with feather to be watching for clues that you're not getting optimal flow. I look for things like water splashing on entry/exit, blade feels wobbly vs. smooth/firm during stroke, cavitation during stroke (feels like a rattle), and average speed on a known TT course is lower than normal. Edited September 12, 2016 by mattdrayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted September 12, 2016 Author Share Posted September 12, 2016 With higher feathering angles, clean technique becomes important to avoid "instinctive" wrist rotation, specifically dorsalflexion. The currently "accepted" technique of significant elbow flexion during paddle exit when the paddle reaches the hip makes hand dorsiflexion obsolete since the rotation to achieve the proper feathered-blade entry angle occurs through elbow flexion rather than wrist rotation. I have read in a forum that top paddler Zsolt used to have an extended arm position throughout the 4 stroke-phases but at some point changed that to the above mentioned elbow flexion during paddle exit and recovery. In such an extreme style of constant arm extension (both arms), I think you would HAVE to have 0 degree feather angle. A significant flexion of the top arm continues throughout the stroke to enable a vertical position of the shaft for the next stroke. That's how I understand it, I may be wrong and am sort of stating above as a question rather than an explanation, since I'm relatively new to wings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josko Posted September 13, 2016 Share Posted September 13, 2016 I confess I have no idea what dorsalflexion is... Who are the go-to forward stroke coaches in the area (besides Wes Echols)? I'm thinking I could use a round of wing blade forward stroke lessons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted September 13, 2016 Author Share Posted September 13, 2016 Dorsiflexion = upward rotation of the hand (like activating the throttle on a motorbike). Let me know if you find an accessible wing blade coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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