Inverseyourself Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 I am looking for an educated () opinion on whether there is any really (!) good reason to get the burgundy full-carbon Epic Mid Wing over the green Club-carbon Epic Mid Wing for 150 $ more. Intended application: I am not a racer but like to go at a medium sustained (2-3 hours) good pace (3.5-4+ kn) in my Explorer (for now...). I am of course not looking to beat my expedition boat into submission with a wing, which I know won't work. I would use the wing mainly for form-training. Thank you very much in advance! P.S.: Has anyone tried out the Epic V7? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 Andy, I'm almost certain that the Club Carbon is a renaming of the older Hybrid model. If so, it means that only difference is that the shaft is a hybrid of carbon and glass. That’s what adds the 2-oz. My SWAG is that the green shaft is slightly more flexible than the burgundy is because all carbon is usually the stiffest (but I'm not sure). I wouldn't worry about the extra 2 oz, especially since the slight extra weight is on the shaft, not out at the ends in the blades. And I doubt that the club is significantly more flexible since, if it were, I think Epic would mention that. Just my 2 cents, Leon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Hey there, @Inverseyourself -- I've been using the Epic Mid in Club Carbon layup for several years now. I've had a chance to use the Full Carbon version a couple times, as well, but most of my experience is with the Club. Overall this is a fantastic paddle, and I think you'd be very happy with it. My sessions with the Full have been at our local Tuesday night races in Salem Sound, which are 5-6 miles long. I definitely notice the weight difference between the Club and Full, although I haven't noticed the difference flexibility as much. If you talk to someone like Sean Rice, he'll recommend the flexible shaft over the rigid shaft for any type of extended paddling (> 1hr), although this is mainly in a race context where you are generating high force at your joints and pivot points. I will say that the Club Carbon is a pretty bomber layup -- I've put that paddle through the wringer and it's still kicking with no cracks or chips. I think for races what I would love to see is the Club Carbon flexible shaft paired with the Full Carbon blade layup -- I think that would be a nice compromise to save a bit of weight. Interestingly, I tried the Full Carbon Small-Mid paddle a couple weeks ago for a race and THAT was pretty awesome, actually -- I was able to keep a higher cadence going although I would still need to time trial it to decide if that size blade makes more sense for me. As far as the V7 goes, I haven't tried one, but I know Ed Duggan has several of them at KLC over at Lynch Park in Beverly -- you could certainly take one for a spin. I think he has every Epic surfski model available at this point, from the V5 through the V14. The V7 is about twice as heavy as the V8 in its Ultra layup, but it also costs over 50% less, which is awesome. It looks like the people who are buying them are having a ton of fun! Cheers, Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 10 minutes ago, mattdrayer said: I I think for races what I would love to see is the Club Carbon flexible shaft paired with the Full Carbon blade layup -- I think that would be a nice compromise to save a bit of weight. Oh, was I wrong? I thought only the shaft of the Club Carbon was hybrid. The blade too? -Leon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 It could be that mine is an older version and just showing a bit of wear at this point, but when I compare it side-by-side with the Full Carbon blades it definitely looks different to me. Perhaps the blades are all the same, though, and it is just the shaft that differs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted August 28, 2016 Author Share Posted August 28, 2016 Leon and Matt: Thanks a lot for your input. I really appreciate it. I think after hearing your opinions and also talking to Ed on the phone, I'll go for the green shaft. Probably better to only try out the V7 and not the V8 or 10 Sport or else I'll get tempted.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Inverseyourself said: Leon and Matt: I'll go for the green shaft. Probably better to only try out the V7 and not the V8 or 10 Sport or else I'll get tempted.? Be careful Andy. The surfski people start out real sweet just to tempt you. “Rolling is a waste of time”, they’ll say. “Just fugetaboutit, we’ll teach you to remount.” “Throw away your GP sticks and learn to wing”. Soon the Borg takes over and resistance is futile. -Leon And some surfski people, I assume, are good people, bigly. Edited August 28, 2016 by leong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 Anybody make a 20+ Foot beginners ski that accepts people with long legs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted August 28, 2016 Author Share Posted August 28, 2016 Aahh, someone else attracted to the dark side. I for my part have swallowed enough BCU-Koolaid to be somewhat immune to assimilation, Leon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 24 minutes ago, jason said: Anybody make a 20+ Foot beginners ski that accepts people with long legs? The Epic V10 Sport is a 20-foot long wider ski (18.9") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 2 hours ago, Inverseyourself said: Aahh, someone else attracted to the dark side. I for my part have swallowed enough BCU-Koolaid to be somewhat immune to assimilation, Leon. I won't be assimilated but I could use something to make paddling around the house more interesting as I won't get ever get any of the swell by my house. The current is good at times but it's aways fairly flat. 2 hours ago, leong said: The Epic V10 Sport is a 20-foot long wider ski (18.9") I will have to keep my eyes out for a used one. That and possibly a large wing paddle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 @jason I wouldn't bother with a wing paddle blade any larger than the Mid size -- with a proper catch and subsequent rotation it should provide plenty of force to slide the boat forward -- the Large size is intended for sprint racing. I spent a season in the V10 Sport and it's a nice boat, although I think the V8 is better for pure paddling around, and the V10 is way better for getting from point A to point B. The V10 Sport is sort of a compromise between those two -- not as stable as the V8, not as fast as the V10, just sort of stuck in the middle. I really don't see surfskis as an either/or thing, although admittedly I have falled completely love with them and haven't really wanted to paddle anything else (disclaimer: I jumped on my wife's paddleboard for an hour this afternoon up in Annisquam and had a great time! Oh and I saw two guys paddling black tip V8's today ) IMHO, any kayaker interested in improving their stroke technique and their balance/stability could benefit from paddling a ski from time to time. Matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted August 29, 2016 Author Share Posted August 29, 2016 Matt, I'm just going to shamelessly pick your brain: What do you think of the comparison of the V8 club version vs the V7. V8 is a foot longer and 12 lbs. lighter in that version. I kinda know the answer but is it worth the 900$ extra? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 (edited) Well, I haven't yet had a chance to paddle the V7, so I really can't comment on it other than that I've heard good things so far. Just looking at the numbers it is definitely on the heavier side, so you'd just need to have the right expectations when hopping onto one. I've paddled the V8 in Club, Performance, and Ultra layups, the V10 Sport in the Performance and Ultra, and the V10 in Performance and Ultra. Personally I'm not really a fan of the Club layup for the V8 and wouldn't even consider it for the other skis, but I look at it from a racing perspective and the weight of a Club boat just can't compete with even the Performance boats, let alone the Ultras or GTs. Most people who race have the Ultra layup (I do), and it's a night-and-day difference vs. the Club and Performance boats. The weight of the Club layup makes the boats hard to accelerate, get onto waves, etc. The Club layup is super strong, however -- it can take a beating, and that's why you see the V8 Club in rental fleets, which I think was the intention (stable + resilient). The V8 in Club layup would be good if you wanted to have a sit-on-top design hanging around for you and others to jump on, play in the waves, and not worry about banging it up. Sort of like the Ocean Kayak scenario where you see them stuffed under the decks at peoples' beach houses and they get taken out by whomever, bumped up a bit, dragged on the sand, etc. Now Epic has introduced the V7, it's cheaper than the V8 Club, and it probably fits that high-use scenario even better due to the materials used. I can't imagine Epic will sell very many Club layup boats of any sort once the V7 has taken hold. If I had to guess that might even be their strategy -- ie, introduce the cheaper V7 and eliminate the Club layup altogether. Matt Edited August 29, 2016 by mattdrayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Inverseyourself said: What do you think of the comparison of the V8 club version vs the V7. V8 is a foot longer and 12 lbs. lighter in that version. I kinda know the answer but is it worth the 900$ extra? Andy, Hmm, I feel like a troll here. Matt is an experienced surfski racer and I’m not. So put my 2 cents in perspective: If I were choosing I’d choose the V8 Club over the V7 because it’s got to be significantly faster. That’s because: The V8 Club’s extra foot of waterline length increases the hull speed. The V8 Club’s glass lay-up is probably a lot stiffer than the V7’s plastic lay-up. The V8 Club is much lighter than the V7 (38.5 lbs. vs. 50 lbs.) Of course the V7 can stand more beating up and it’s cheaper. However, I don’t think you want a surfski for rock play and extreme durability. That’s the job for your sea kayak. Also, hauling around the 50-pound V7 would be a lot harder than for the 38.5-poumd V8 Club. I know you have the muscle for both, but it’s still a consideration (especially after a 3-hour hard workout). I really appreciated it when I went from my 50-lb. Falcon 18 to the less than 40-lb. weights of my Epic 18X Ultra and all carbon QCC 700X. So, all and all, I think the lighter and faster surfski is worth the extra $900. -Leon Edited August 29, 2016 by leong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted August 29, 2016 Author Share Posted August 29, 2016 Leon, I'm thinking along the same lines for my modest, non-racer needs. No rock-play with the ski, although I've been known to find them unintentionally. Trying to decide whether thePerformance would be worth yet another .5 k. Help, help, I'm being sucked in by "lighter, faster". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 (edited) If it were me, I would take the V8 over the V7, and I would take the Performance over the Club, even if it meant having to wait a little while longer in order to cover the difference in cost. The Performance layup is still bomber, and yes, it's faster because it's lighter but it's also faster because materials-wise I think you get a stiffer boat. The Ultra is another story but as I said previously you wouldn't want to go there unless you were planning to race. IMHO I think Epic should just stop offering the Club layup altogether. It's heavy enough to really affect the acceleration and speed of the ski, which means you work harder for the same outcome. Plus, knowing that you are an experienced paddler I think you'd hit the top end of the V8 Club's performance threshold pretty quickly and at that point either attain ultimate contentment or be bummed out. Really the best thing to do is head on down to Ed's and take a couple boats out for an hour each and see which one feels the best to you. And/or come to our final series race of the season tomorrow night at 6pm at Lynch Park and check out some of our personal boats, even take one for a spin. There should be a couple V8s there. @leong I think this is a great discussion. You are correct in that the V8 is certainly a superior design to the V7, but it does cost significantly more. A lot of people are scratching their heads right now because Epic has introduced this conundrum. They way I look at it, if I'm thinking about picking up one of those Ocean Kayak sit-on-top boats to haul around, bring to the beach, etc., I'd get a V7 instead. Edited August 29, 2016 by mattdrayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josko Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 Is there any reason to look beyond Epic when picking out a wing paddle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdrayer Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 9 minutes ago, josko said: Is there any reason to look beyond Epic when picking out a wing paddle? Sure -- I know several people who paddle Jantex and Braca and seem to be happy with them, although I have tried neither. There has been enough for me to learn so far with the Epic Mid that I'm only just now starting to think about another paddle, and that is the Epic Small-Mid ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josko Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 FWIW, I'm getting a wing blade for my new Rockpool Taran. I took some lessons with Wesley Echols, and he got me started with (according to him) very forgiving Stellar Mid and advised me to progress to blades with more twist as I get comfortable. Right now most of my paddling is with an Ikelos (and Explorer), but I found I was 'spinning out' the Ikelos when trying out the Taran (i.e. I felt my cadence was wanting to go higher than I'm comfortable with in the long run). I was advised to contact Mark at CRCK for advice in demoing and selecting the appropriate paddle, but I would welcome any other advice on size,model and what to look for. My primary uses will be downwind surfing and fitness.Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 Josko, Perhaps Wes already told you about his online reviews, but here are a couple of good ones. This and this. I'm thinking of an Onno for my next wing. I saw one at a Blackburn Challenge and it looked pretty good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted August 29, 2016 Author Share Posted August 29, 2016 Since we're back at wing paddles, I consider myself a reasonably powerful guy but am wondering whether a small mid wing might be better than a midwing. I'm not of a I-have-power- therefore-I-need-a-big blade mindset but am looking for the most efficient blade-size for my body measurements. I'm currently 6' 5-1/2" (I insist on the 1/2!!!) and 230 lbs.(I expect or rather hope latter number to decrease with fitness paddling). Very long arms. Any opinions for intended use of no-race, no-sprint, 2+ hours sustained exercise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted August 29, 2016 Author Share Posted August 29, 2016 (edited) The perfect symbiosis between species surfski and species lobster boat (ok, maybe it's not a lobster boat): Edited August 29, 2016 by Inverseyourself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josko Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 (edited) Wes had me try out a huge range of blades, most of which I couldn't control, but I did learn there is a basic tradeoff between twist, power and ease of use. I did read his reviews, but talking to the man was incomparably more worthwhile. Hence my puyylement on why we're talking Epics only. FWIW, my exercise paddle is rounding Naushon island, 18 nmi. I find I'm consistently 5-10 mins faster with an Ikelos than a Cyprus, and I only choose the latter if paddling into a 15+ kt headwind. The Stellar wing didn't do anything to my time (over an Ikelos), and I'm not sure of the reasons for that. Edited August 29, 2016 by josko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted August 29, 2016 Share Posted August 29, 2016 23 minutes ago, leong said: Josko, Perhaps Wes already told you about his online reviews, but here are a couple of good ones. This and this. I'm thinking of an Onno for my next wing. I saw one at a Blackburn Challenge and it looked pretty good. Just make sure you don't pay for the full paddle upfront... http://www.surfski.info/forum/1-general/18374-did-onno-paddles-steal-my-money.html http://www.paddling.net/Reviews/showReviews.html?prod=646 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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