Low Brace Turn - Where should your paddle be?

[cfolster]

This past weekend, I was asked to demonstrate a low brace turn and I put my paddle in the water where I would in moving water (and in my head, I think I was thinking about turning on an eddy line to face the other direction). That is, not straight out perpendicular to the boat, but back further at about a 45% angle. Here's a picture to illustrate at least the starting position:

I was told by the coaches that it is not as effective as perpendicular to the boat. And if you try it on flat water, you can feel that back at 45 degrees is not as supportive as perpendicular. One of the coaches also felt that in very strong current, that back positioning would fail me (and he just came from Deception Pass, so has some experience with current).

So what I want to know is what do folks think - have I just been getting away with the rearward angle due to the support of the current and my boat shape? Would stronger current cause that position to not work?

Are there times, like crossing an eddy line, that you would put it in a different place than if you're just on flat water?

Does putting the paddle straight out slow the boat down more than the rearward angle?

I'm going to spend some more time playing with this, but would like input from others . . .

[Suz]

90 degree perpendicular to the boat is the most support. Anywhere else it is not a low brace but ends up being somewhat of a turning stroke or somewhat of a rudder type stroke.

[rick stoehrer]

edge your boat....the paddle is the pivot point...perpendicular is the standard....as suz said perpendicular is the most supportive place and anything other than that, diminishing support....keeping it perpendicular and bring it forward a bit and you'll hasten your turn and far back as you have it, real slow if it all... the blade has a climbing angle and is skimming the top of the water...edge the boat. edge the boat. edge the boat. you'll find the edge plus a degree or two and have to roll up a few times. get wet. have fun.

[Phil Allen]

Cathy-

Just my 0.02$ worth, but I'd be hesitant to use a low brace turn (with the paddle in the water) to cross eddy lines in a long boat. Since the brace acts like a break, it slows you down just at the most chaotic point in the transition from eddy to current. Get across the eddy line then use it perpendicular to the boat as Rick and Suz say to make a deep edged turn in the direction you want to go. In short boats it's more appropriate as there is less of the boat feeling opposing forces for less time.

best

Phil

[leong]

I’m confused (as usual?). Cathy is asking about a low brace turn, not just a low brace. After picking up speed in flat water I was taught to hold the paddle way back in a low brace position (blade back facing down) while edging and then bring the paddle to the perpendicular position for support as I slowed down. Essentially like shown in this video. Perhaps it’s a nomenclature thing.

-Leon

[rick stoehrer]

it's been awhile but what i presently understand to do is to sweep one side and plant amidships and at about 90 on the other....again, mostly edging...after the opposite side sweep, the paddle is skimming the water with climbing angle and is there as the pivot point and as the eventual brace when you lose the balance on the edge of the boat and/or greater forces from moving water require/warrant it. the less the blade is in the water, the more speed you retain and the faster you go.

something like that.

[Paul Sylvester]

couple thoughts:

On a low brace turn lean on the side you are turning to as opposed to an opposite edge as in a bow rudder. The idea being to pivot the boat around your paddle while using it for (perpendicular) support.

Leaning forward will help the boat to pivot quicker around the paddle. And yes you will loose forward speed quickly.

[Inverseyourself]

Support is undoubtedly maximal at 90 degrees. But you're trying to turn, so while the support-aspect is important, the turn-aspect is equally so. I'm as confused as Leon. I thought a low brace turn starts behind the paddler and moves forward in reverse stroke fashion. While the paddle blade arcs toward the 90 degree position from aft, lean increases and maximal lean occurs when support is maximal, at 90 degrees. As the paddle then moves forward towards the bow beyond 90 degrees to finish the turn, lean decreases again. This sequence is true for flat and dynamic water. I have seen great paddlers do it that way and it has worked for me in dynamic water (I am not saying that means anything here). I think that the high brace turn is a little less dynamic and stays more around 90 degrees throughout the turn. Not sure what the ACA folks meant but I will of course defer to them and relearn (good thing I have a roll....)

[rick stoehrer]

Yup..I like my coach friends....we're sitting here watching the sox from the fancy shmancy seats and are thus far sticking at the 90 thing and not behind you for a low brace turn.

[rick stoehrer]

Yup..I like my coach friends....we're sitting here watching the sox from the fancy shmancy seats and are thus far sticking at the 90 thing and not behind you for a low brace turn.

[EEL]

Cathy:

First, ignorance disclosure. I do not know what the past and current BCU/ACA dogma is regarding low brace turns. I suppose I practice low brace turns in all the ways that have been described here, and I have opinions about how the different approaches work for me with my paddle and my style, but what that means nothing.

Second, being able to demonstrate to students certain and specific strokes as an instructor is a totally different skill from using strokes while paddling to accomplish some task. In other words, as a paddler you should develop craftsmanship using a set of tools and skills to do what needs to be done. This is not done by selecting certain strokes done in isolation and learned in isolation, but by using your skills and experience with your boat and your paddle to adapt and create a series of movements based to accomplish the task at hand..

Third, how a low brace turn is to be performed in the real world is not a question with a specific answer as it is when the goal is to provide a new paddler with exposure to a basic technique on flat water from which it is hoped they will develop a skill set for use in the real world.

Fourth, if you watch skilled paddlers who are true artisans paddling in the real world, I suspect you will seldom if ever see them performing the discrete specific strokes everyone focuses upon in skills sessions and which coaches are expected to be able to demonstrate to students. What you will see are them performing the essence of those strokes as craftsmen adapting to the demands of a given situation. For those who follow a more formula/mechanical approach, this is sometimes said to be linking strokes.

Fifth, studying a book like Cooper's Rough Water Handling helps to reinforce the concept of viewing strokes as flexible tools you use in a variety of combinations according to your preferences and style to get you from point A to B.

So by all means play in your boat, try out all manner of combinations and ways of doing thing as well as perfecting the ability to demonstrate the strokes expected by the certifying authorities. Get wet as Rick suggests. You will develop your style with your tools. I believe it will make you a far better instructor because you will know how and why and when the essence of a given stroke is used in the real world. Then you can talk to the student about the stroke not as some neat exercise on flat water that looks cool and if you do it this way it is correct according to the dogma of the day; but rather as a tool the student can adapt and use to dance on the water and get from point A to B. In short , to be a paddler.

And don't forget. Do not learn from the masters. Learn as the masters learned.

Ed Lawson

Who usually just hacks at the water while floundering around

[cfolster]

Thank you everyone for your input. I know the best way to learn is get out and paddle, but for me, I learn best when I pre-learn with ideas and images to think about and test.

So here's what I think:

I know how to do a low brace turn and can demonstrate it reasonably well at the perpendicular position. I think Ed is right in that there's a difference between the isolated maneuver as it's demonstrated and how it's put into practice as functional craftsmanship.

I think the rearward 45 degree angle (and moving the paddle forward as Leon suggests and the video shows), works and has merit. I wonder if this difference of opinion is simply a matter of the 'preferred' style being taught changing over time as Ed alluded to.

I have nowhere near as much experience on moving water as Phil, but I still like the low brace turn Andy showed me to use opposing current to turn yourself around. It's fast (and fun), and I think uses the environment to best effect. Where you put the paddle is somewhere between the 45 and 90 degrees depending on the situation. If you simply edge to cross an eddy line, and let the opposing current catch your bow, that works, but this method is faster and I think provides better stability and control. I do imagine there are situations where it might not work well, such as unclear eddy lines with lots of whirlpools or foamy air-filled water.

I do know I'm going to get out and play around with it and will report back if I have any change of heart. Anyone up for Cohasset on May 23 or June 7?

Cathy

[Phil Allen]

Hi Cathy-

Definitely go play (and I may be able to join you in Cohasset in May). Ed generalized some of great thoughts about the use versus demonstration of skills. My specific issue with the way many folks apply the low brace turn is that: a) requires lots of speed and therefore room, which you may not have and as done by many leaves the boat pretty much right on or just passed the eddy line. Having been knocked over, swallowed by whirl pools (though not like Rick) and had sea sickness suddenly arise when I was on the eddy line it's just not a great place to hang out. Unless it's mild and you're having fun doing spins etc ;-) . So think about the goal when applying the low brace turn.

best

Phil

[prudenceb]

May 23, yes!

pru

[Suz]

I have been cogitating on this and while I agree with what Ed has explained in his eloquent manner, I think there might be more too it.

In general, I think most people feel awkward in a low brace position where the paddle is 90 degrees as you need to have elbows upward to achieve.

I think that sloppiness makes you go for the 45 degree angle as you can do it with the wet arm as opposed to both arms. Also I have found that depending on where I put my blade (regardless of whether it is in the water or not), it changes my weight distribution. So what happens when you are more stern weighted than mid boat or with a slight forward lean? Try them all and see how it changes how quickly the boat comes around.

So, for kicks, try this without getting the blade wet - do a low brace turn in quiet water - no wind, no current - isolate out what the body is doing. See what happens when your blade is perpendicular versus at a 45. Generally your weight distribution is different which of course causes your boat to do different things. (not saying what so it doesn't give you a preconceived notion of what is or should be happening).

Strokes are learned in isolation but the goal is to combine them and link all your strokes to best achieve whatever the required action is. You certainly would have a harder time teaching a maneuver that is a combination of three strokes to someone who doesn't know the three strokes... hence - teaching individual strokes in isolation but in practice linking them.

[Dan Foster]

High tide on May 23rd is 4:18PM. I'd be interested in an afternoon session in the current there.

[cfolster]

On quiet water, the 90 clearly has better support than the 45. I've already experienced that. The question I have is whether moving water allows you to move that angle back to 45.

Oooo, I like the idea of trying out the different lean positions, especially the forward. Will try all of this!

I do wonder about sloppiness/bad habits contributing to the 45 degree angle.

And thank you for reminding me of a word I haven't used in a while! (cogitating)

[leong]

If the exact question is “where should your paddle be for a low brace turn?” then I’m sticking with how I was taught to do it. What I was taught is explained here. Perhaps a different question is actually being asked and, of course, that’s okay.

-Leon (who's still confused by the answers)

[Phil Allen]

ps: much better days for Cohasset on th 16th and 17th

best

Phil

[cfolster]

ps: much better days for Cohasset on th 16th and 17th

best

Phil

Why do you think so? On the 23d, you will catch the flood and the ebb if you launch around 9:30 or 10am. On the 16th/17th, you can launch later, but only catch the ebb.

[Suz]

I’m confused (as usual?). Cathy is asking about a low brace turn, not just a low brace. After picking up speed in flat water I was taught to hold the paddle way back in a low brace position (blade back facing down) while edging and then bring the paddle to the perpendicular position for support as I slowed down. Essentially like shown in this video. Perhaps it’s a nomenclature thing.

-Leon

Most of the paddlers in the video are using a stern rudder into a low brace to accomplish the turns. Some of them were on a wave which is a much more likely place to move from a stern rudder to a low brace. Still, try the perpendicular position and see what it does for you, try it as I suggested to Cathy - in quiet water, no current, now wind to see the difference positioning makes. Don't get the paddle wet and see what happens to the boat. Then try it same conditions but now with the paddle wet - bracing into the water in the 90 degree position and then also 45. THEN report in what you find.

Suz

[Dan Foster]

On the 23d, you will catch the flood and the ebb if you launch around 9:30 or 10am. On the 16th/17th, you can launch later, but only catch the ebb.

My understanding of timing a trip to play in the currents at Cohasset is that you want to flood tide to flush you under the bridge and trap you in Little Harbor. You then play for a few hours on the harbor side of the bridge as the flood weakens, and then eat lunch and paddle around the harbor during the slack at high tide. Then you paddle back to the ocean side, and play as the ebb tries to push you back out to sea. If you reverse the tides, you end up trapped in Little Harbor at the end of the day, or there are too many exposed rocks when the tide is low.

So the ideal date for a Cohasset Little Harbor trip is one where high tide falls around lunchtime. Sunday, May 17 has high tide at 11:34AM, which is just about perfect. Monday or Tuesday might be better. Saturday, May 23rd has high tide at 4:18PM, which means the the flood will be ripping from noon until 2PM, but you'd have to stay past 6PM to play on the ebb.

http://ma.usharbors.com/monthly-tides/Massachusetts-Boston%20Harbor,South%20Shore/Cohasset%20Harbor%20%28White%20Head%29

[cfolster]

Thank you both! I do know that but got the tide times kerbobbled in my head!

[Phil Allen]

Thanks Dan. Also, the ebb current doesn't start until an hour after high and in my experience doesn't get interesting till 2 hours after high.

best

Phil

[Phil Allen]

ps: on the subject of Cohasset, the harbor master has asked that folks leave a float plan with her. Her office is in the yellow building close to the bridge. It helps you having someone know you're out there should a storm come up etc and I think it helps her tracking use of the local marine environment.

best

Phil