Steering Fishform vs Swedeform boats

[josko]

Had a chance to observe some good paddlers in NDK boats and noticed they tend to be quite far forward and emphasize forward (sweep, rudder, etc) strokes in conditions, (as oposed to 'lean back and rely on ruddering, stern drawing, prying...) coaching I've had in the past.

I started to wonder how much of that had to do with hull shape - therse folks were largely in NDK's, which tend to be fishform, and much of my prior observations were of folks in Swedeform P&H's.

So, does it make sense to think of steering a swedeform boat from further aft than a fishform boat?

Edited October 13, 2014 by josko

[rfolster]

It may be a newer trend in coaching, regardless of boat design. In conditions, forward momentum is considered your best asset and the forward stroke your best support stroke while maintaining momentum. If you do need to adjust your track, forward manuvering strokes allow you to easily transition into a forward stroke In order to maintain forward momentum. Rear manuvering strokes, while having their own purposes, make transitioning into a forward stroke more difficult.

[Inverseyourself]

Fish form: less positive pressure along the hull forward to the broadest point because broadest point is more forward.

Swede form: more positive pressure along the hull forward to the broadest point because broadest point is more aft.

Could the reason be that, because of above stated, fish form is directionally more stable (i.e. turns less easily) and Swede form directionally more unstable (i.e turns easier) and that for that reason a more "passive" stern blade maneuver fits an easier turning Swede form and a more "active" forward blade maneuver fits the less easily turning fish form? Just blurting out crazy stuff here.

Edited October 14, 2014 by Inverseyourself

[Suz]

I have been thinking about this topic as I remember distinctly transitioning from an NDK boat to a P&H Cetus. Although now I am paddling an MV and once owned the LV and 161. I found all of them similar in how they behaved.

Firstly, "leaning back" for stern strokes is probably not quite correct, it anchors the stern.

Secondly, think of stern strokes as "minor corrections" and not turning. If you missed the opportunity to simply correct or hold position (on a wave to keep from broaching or so), you would move to a different stroke and act on the boat in a different or more aggressive way to get the boat to do what you wanted to do.

And now on to the differences between the boats - they do have different pivot points. Andy is correct in that the shape of the boat determines this. It has been awhile for me but a simple side by side comparison would point it out again... Next time you have an Explorer around and a Cetus MV, give it a try. The pivot point on the Cetus range is closer to your knees and on the Explorer it is further out. Edging a P&H accentuates this.

And lastly, Robert, try moving your blade in a neutral position (while under water) along the length of your boat. This is a skill that allows you to move the blade easily from any position and so moving from the "rear" quarter to the middle of the boat to the "forward" section all can take place easily. That finesse under the water is key to moving the blade and allowing it to act on the boat where you want it to.

[spuglisi]

And lastly, Robert, try moving your blade in a neutral position (while under water) along the length of your boat. This is a skill that allows you to move the blade easily from any position and so moving from the "rear" quarter to the middle of the boat to the "forward" section all can take place easily. That finesse under the water is key to moving the blade and allowing it to act on the boat where you want it to.

Nice tip Suz. I look forward to playing around with that.

[EEL]

Leaving aside the issues the who, what, when, where and why concerning "conditions", "good paddlers", "forward and leaning back paddling/strokes", "coaches"; I doubt the differences had anything to do with fishform v. swedeform hulls. I don't know what people mean when they use those terms since most people are assuming if they look at the deck and the widest part is behind the cockpit it is a swedeform boat and if the widest part is in front of the cockpit it is a fishform boat. That is not correct. My understanding is the location of the longitudinal center of balance (LCB) hat determines whether a hull is swedeform or fishform and boats can appear to be one or the other based on shape of the deck, but are actually the reverse at the waterline. For example, the NDK Explorer is not a fishform boat although it certainly appears that way. Its LCB is 50%. I believe the Cetus LV is not a swedeform boat since its LCB is less than 50% if my memory is correct.

Many things make boats behave as they do and one factor that is not easy to ascertain, like whether swede or fish form, doesn't provide much relevant information. For example, both the Bahyia and the Explorer have LCBs of 50%, but I seriously doubt anyone would say they have similar characteristics.

To me, the important point is to just go and mess around in the boat you have and learn what it likes and does not like in a variety of paddling circumstances and go from there.

Ed Lawson

Edited October 16, 2014 by EEL

[Inverseyourself]

In the end....exactly what Ed said. Mess around with your boat and eat Swedish Fish!

[josko]

Maybe it's just our learning styles, but I LOVE to figure out the theory behind whatever I'm trying to do.

[Lallen]

Josko, just curious, what kind of conditions are you referring to in which you noticed the paddlers using strokes farther forward than you were used to? Current? Rock play? Or are you talking about surf?

[josko]

Lorrie,

mostly tiderace surfing/maneuvering.

[EEL]

Oh. In that case maybe some of these samples of the five million videos done at Skookumchuck might be helpful.

http://www.northwestpaddling.net/videos

Not that "you tube" videos can be relied upon for proper technique, but they do show variety of folks and how they do it.

Ed Lawson

[Phil Allen]

Hi Josko

It's hard to really comment without seeing your examples, but this is the inter web, and you mentioned theory, so I'll do it anyway ;-). But since I wasn't there to see what you saw, feel free to ignore the thoughts below.

I'll speculate that it all depends on wave speed, steepness and duration/run time. In long period traveling waves (classic surfing waves over a shallow rising slope, and places like Ed's video), once the boat is accelerating down the wave, the bow is locked by the bow wave and turning strokes from the stern work better, particularly if the stern is high on the wave. Short steep transient waves are more common in a tide race, the bow and stern alternate being locked in and front or back stroke effectiveness varies quite a bit. If you can catch a wave where the bow stays loose (say overhanging the wave), then strokes at the front would be more effective.

best

Phil