Paddle Length

[rfolster]

How important is paddle length really? I mean, does 5cm really make a difference? I have been paddling with a 215cm for almost two years and just noticed that Werner suggests a 210cm for my height and boat width.

One other thing is that I have a tendency to tap the boat when putting the blade in at the beginning of my forward stroke. The scuff marks are building up and I hope they will buff out, but the real question is if a shorter blade will change this or do I need to work on my stroke more?

[Gcosloy]

Rob,

A shorter paddle will reduce swing weight however paddle length is a personal issue. If your stroke is more relaxed and not a high angle a longer paddle may be preferable. Werner suggests a 210 for me but even though I paddle high angle I use a 215. Werner unfortunately does not ask for the length of arms which can make a difference or whether your height is distributed more towards your torso vs. legs. If you can comfortably bury the blade without much effort at the start of the stroke but not more than a smidgen of the shaft you're paddling with the right length.

Edited September 26, 2014 by GCosloy

[...]

Rob,

For what it is worth, I started paddling with two 215cm paddles. Before long I was told to switch out to 210cm. Not knowing any better, I bought two new 210cm paddles. I continue to paddle with 210cm and seem to like the length. Would I have enjoyed the 215 cm as well, perhaps. I guess you should use whatever paddle works for you. I now have two almost new 215cm paddles in my basement collecting dust!

I was also tapping the hull on the entry phase of my forward stroke. Seems I was not keeping my arms straight enough at the time. I was bending the elbows and causing the blade to move too close to the hull. I altered that approach and the tapping has disappeared. For me the tapping was not related to the paddle length.

Hey Rob, I now have four 210cm paddles (two of the two piece and two of the four piece). You are welcome to borrow one of my 210cm paddles and see what you think about it. Just a thought.

By the way, Mr Clean Magic Eraser works wonders of scuff marks!

Warren

[Inverseyourself]

My Celtic paddle adjusts from 210-220 cm. I have been progressively reducing length. 215 is the upper limit of what this, not exactly short-torsoed or short-armed, high-angle paddler will use, but I may go down to 210 cm in the future. Like Gene said, arm-length to torso-length ratio is overlooked in the paddle length recommendations by most companies (assuming that we all use kayaks ~ 21-22" beam and not freighters). It also depends on the blade size (bigger blade --> shorter shaft) and what you do with it. When catching waves, I shorten my paddle a little because I want to use a higher cadence for spurts.

Edited September 26, 2014 by Inverseyourself

[Lallen]

Agree it is a personal preference. I started with a 215, demoed a 210, and found that 205 is actually the most comfortable for me. Where I find it makes a difference is in my ability to get the blade out of the water. With the longer length it seemed like it was harder for me to get the blade out of the water soon enough so I was lifting more water.

[leong]

When catching waves, I shorten my paddle a little because I want to use a higher cadence for spurts.

Although the first consideration for paddle length for the forward stroke is dependent on torso/trunk length and boat width, I see that you realize that stroke cadence should also be considered.

Because decreasing (increasing) paddle length increases (decreases) cadence, there is some paddle length that results in the “optimal” * cadence. Optimal cadence is defined this way: For a given boat speed, the optimal cadence is that cadence that maximizes muscle power output (a higher or lower cadence will result in reduced paddling efficiency). Note that optimal cadence varies with your forward speed. But it also varies markedly between individuals.

Accordingly, I think that cadence should at least be considered for choosing paddle length (and blade size too).

Optimal Cadence Theory:

Hill’s equation indicates that the maximum force a muscle can produce decreases as the speed of contraction increases. Noting that power = force times speed, there is some optimal cadence that maximizes the power output from muscles. A higher or lower cadence from the optimal cadence reduces efficiency. So, within an ergonomically reasonable range of paddle lengths (and blade sizes), paddle length (and blade size) should be chosen to obtain the optimal cadence, even at the cost of some slippage.

Regarding slippage, it should be noted that paddle thrust (drag) squares with blade velocity. So doubling the velocity increases the thrust by a factor of four. That’s why paddle boarders can move so fast just using their hands (they move their hands fast and get a lot of thrust). Perhaps that’s one of the reasons why skinny GPs do so well. But Olympic sprinters are very powerful and locking the blade with every stroke takes precedence over cadence. However, a little slippage might help the rest of us mortals paddle more efficiently at the optimal cadence.

[Inverseyourself]

"With the longer length it seemed like it was harder for me to get the blade out of the water soon enough so I was lifting more water".

Lorrie, you raise an interesting point. We know that a high angle style is more efficient than a long angle style. Of course, one has to be careful not to maintain the same distance of the paddle from the boat throughout the paddle stroke since this will lead to one lifting too much water upon paddle exit, especially if latter is too far behind the hip, which is accentuated by a longer paddle. Lifting water can also be avoided by paddling "wing-paddle-style". Does anyone here use their regular paddle like a wing paddle (similar, not identical of course)?

[leong]

Lifting water can also be avoided by paddling "wing-paddle-style". Does anyone here use their regular paddle like a wing paddle (similar, not identical of course)?

Brent Reitz and Greg Barton recommend this. In fact, I think one of them said that a wing paddle forces you to paddle with nearly the same stroke that you should be using with a flat paddle.

[Inverseyourself]

Slightly different subject: Is anyone at NSPN using a large blade (> 720 cm2, e.g. Coryvrecken) in conditions, especially in surf and tide-races and what is their experience with it?

[Inverseyourself]

Leon: I paddled a wing paddle (borrowed from Beth) on MDI and loved it. I find that I can't help "winging it" with my flat blade since then.

[BethS]

When using my wing paddle (the one mentioned above!) I vary the length between 205 and 210... I seem to generally prefer 205ish (which is what was recommended for me, they said 206) but sometimes 210 just feels better... I don't know why really. Maybe it just uses slightly different muscles and my arms like the change now and then. I think I am more efficient overall with the shorter length though. If it's windy or rough I prefer the shorter 205-207 as well. But then most of the time I am using a greenland paddle anyway!

[Paul Sylvester]

Playing with my wing the last couple years has caused me to use my "normal" Nordkapp blade in the same manner. Close entry and letting the blade follow the bow wake with the exit being out a bit.

[Lallen]

I also put the blade in close to the boat but move away from the boat on the exit.

[rfolster]

I also put the blade in close to the boat but move away from the boat on the exit.

Any issues (early on?) with hitting the boat with the paddle when initiating the stroke that you have since resolved?

[leong]

Any issues (early on?) with hitting the boat with the paddle when initiating the stroke that you have since resolved?

I placed strips of tape on my kayak to protect the hull from occasional paddle hits.

[Pintail]

Another, important factor concerning shorter paddles (I have used a 205 for many years) is that it is far easier to link strokes -- example: when moving from a forward stroke to a draw stroke on same side. When I started paddling almost everyone used a 220 and I always wondered why certain things were hard to accomplish (for me) with that long utensil -- when I changed it was immediately obvious.

Do what Leon recommends and put tape on your hull at that point where your paddle strikes the hull: you might look at it a different way and be proud that you are apparently getting the paddle into the water at the right catch point? Remember that racing boats tend to be narrower.

(Greetings, Granowitz-san!)

Edited September 29, 2014 by Pintail

[josko]

Here is an article I found useful:

http://www.seakayakinguk.com/action/images/forwardpaddling1.jpg

http://www.seakayakinguk.com/action/images/forwardpaddling2.jpg

http://www.seakayakinguk.com/action/images/forwardpaddling3.jpg

[Phil Allen]

Any issues (early on?) with hitting the boat with the paddle when initiating the stroke that you have since resolved?

I have problems with that sometimes, and find that it's due to my air hand being to low and not far enough across the boat upon paddle entry. Something I'm still working on.

best

Phil

[scamlin]

In the November 2002 issue of Atlantic Coastal Kayaker, Ken Fink wrote an article "Benefits of a Shorter Paddle." In it, he argued that most paddlers use a paddle that is too long. He pointed out that a paddle is essentially a lever, with the lower hand acting as the fulcrum. Assuming the hands are about the same distance apart regardless of paddle length, a shorter paddle changes the ratio of the length above and below the lower hand. Thus a shorter paddle gives you more mechanical advantage (leverage), resulting in a more powerful stroke. I'm working from memory, but believe he argued that more leverage led to better speed overall. I'm even thinking he argued for a more rapid stroke cycle as being more efficient, much like bike racers have a high cadence.

Nigel Dennis makes more or less the same point in his article--shorter paddle = more powerful stroke, even if it has other tradeoffs.

Of course, some would argue that the more we approach a full wing style, vertical stroke, with the power coming from torso rotation transferred to the blade via relatively fixed arm and hand position, the less the paddle shaft is acting as a lever--the key concept in Ken Fink's approach. Even in a wing stroke, there is some leverage effect, albeit less than a classic low angle stroke.

As a newbie in 1997, a retailer handed me a 220 cm Werner Camano which then had a relatively long, narrow blade. I paddled it low angle style with the then standard wrist rotation. I replaced it a few years later with 215 cm Lendals with relatively large blades (original Kinetic, Mystic and Nordkapp) and migrated to a high-angle, wing-like stroke. While I still have some 215 cm shafts paddles, I paddle almost exclusively with 210s. I'm hardly a powerful paddler, but the commbination of short shaft and large blades gives me a lot of leverage = power, acceleration and minimal injury. Of course, every paddler has different needs and experiences.

Over the years, I've seen many newer or smaller paddlers struggle to keep up with the pod and often observe they cannot move the blade through the water with conviction...because the paddle is too long. Ken Fink's experience is that most paddlers, regardless of size and height, will paddle faster with more ease, with a shorter paddle. If I remember correctly, he suggested that 210 cm was a good starting point for most paddlers.

Cheers,

Scott

[JohnHuth]

I had something of an epiphany - I was paddling with a 220 during a workshop. The instructor had us switch paddles with the person next to us. I swapped paddles with a woman who wasn't very tall. It was amazing. I asked her how long it was - 205. I was ready to downshift - and got a Werner Kalliste in 205.

A bunch of people above have cited a lot of experts, so I won't repeat that, but only my anecdotal experience. I've coached a number of events in track (sprints, javelin, long jump) and become something of a student of biomechanics. The general rule-of-thumb is to find techniques that employ the core muscles as much as possible because they're the strongest.

Without having done an exhaustive analysis of my forward stroke, I find that with a short paddle, I can get a fairly wide grip on the paddle without having wide elbow angles - this means I can get more of my shoulders rotated parallel with the blade during the strokes, which means I can get more of my core engaged.

Also, as mentioned above (and tied into the stern rudder discussion) - it makes me feel like I can link strokes together. In particular, the transition from a forward stroke to a stern rudder without a lot of shoulder exposure is a big plus for me.

I suppose I should be in a longer paddle given the sizing chart, but I've adapted my style to the 205 and like it a lot - I feel like I have a lot of control with it.

Edited October 4, 2014 by JohnHuth

[Michael_Crouse]

One nit picky thing that drives me crazy: paddle shaft length vs. blade size!

If you're paddling with a 215cm Werner Camano (using a vertical stroke) and you want an new paddle you should measure the paddle shaft, not just the over all length. If you switched to a 210cm with a shorter wider blade the paddle shaft might actually be longer than the shaft on your 210cm Camano.

For me observing how much of the shaft is in or out of the water at the catch helps to determine the paddle length.

Oh yea, at my height a 215-220 cm feels perfect for me. This is great since people are always selling their too long for them paddles at great prices :-)

[leong]

Here is an article I found useful:

http://www.seakayakinguk.com/action/images/forwardpaddling1.jpg

http://www.seakayakinguk.com/action/images/forwardpaddling2.jpg

http://www.seakayakinguk.com/action/images/forwardpaddling3.jpg

That’s a good article, Josco. The author mentions cadence a few times. Because I’ve been a bike and kayak racer for years, I’m particularly interested in cadence as it’s related to efficiency.

The article mentions these three facts:

1. Shorter (longer) paddles promote faster (slower) stroke rates (cadence).

2. Smaller (larger) blades promote faster (slower) cadence.

3. Faster cadence promotes faster acceleration.

The article also mentions that the average paddler has a stroke rate (cadence) of 60 strokes per minute. This is probably right for social group paddling; however, a faster cadence is probably more efficient when you want to paddle faster and farther. That’s because studies have demonstrated that higher cadences allow the most economical use of aerobic metabolism* when performing at high power outputs or for long distances. Similar to pedaling a bike, the idea behind a faster paddling cadence is that you conserve energy by pushing/pulling with a much smaller force on the paddle whilst the paddle goes around faster. This contrasts with “mashing” (a term I borrowed from bike racing) whereby you push/pull with a bigger force on the paddle, but the paddle cycles slower.

Of course, without sophisticated measuring equipment, there is no way to accurately determine your optimal cadence for a given speed. Also, because a kayak doesn’t have variable paddling gears like gears on a bicycle, varying paddle length and blade size have limited ability to affect paddling cadence. I’ve estimated my own optimal cadence by trial and error – I see how it feels and I used to check my heart rate with a chest monitor. I can vary the cadence by varying the length of my paddle (I have variable length paddles) as well as the length of my stroke (a shorter stroke implies a higher cadence to maintain the same speed).

-Leon

* For more about this see what I said in post # 3 in this thread.

[Phil Allen]

For a personal answer to the "how much does a small change in paddle length matter" I borrowed Lorrie's 205cm paddle for a bit yesterday (I usually paddle with the 210). Overall paddle stroke was shorter which allowed higher cadence and a more vertical entry of the blade into the water. Didn't have a gps to test if overall speed was different. Not much difference in the ability to link strokes, do hanging draws or rudders strokes.

best

Phil

[Michael_Crouse]

Pics of a 215cm Corryvrecken vs. a 220cm Toksook to show that the shorter paddle has a longer shaft.

[rfolster]

Michael, I understand your point. The intention if this thread was to consider the difference in overall paddle length of the same paddle design.