tyson

...is there any wonder that there are people who lack faith in our government?

Here is the start of a series of posts on cockpit outfitting by Adam Bolonsky (who is also on NSPN). Unfortunately, his labels lack consistency so you can't just get the full series without a lot of digging. However, one of the links in that post is a bunch of pictures by Brian Nystrom. I'm not suggesting that you need to replace your seat, esp. if it is already comfortable. However, if you go to the pictures link and look at the album labeled "Kayak Outfitting" you will see some examples of how one might outfit their cockpit. It might give you a better feel of what to look for. Cheers! Ty

Here is our Blackburn SPOT track. Since I've already posted the track from our GPS, its not so interesting as a track. ...it will also go blank in a day or so I think. However, the point here is that I placed the SPOT in the mesh pouch on the top of my deck back facing just about straight up. The only thing between it and the satellites was a little bit of thin mesh. ...and I still ended up with 50 minute gaps when it is sending a message every 10 minutes. Because of its live tracking features, it is a lot more "fun" than a PLB, but I don't think I can recommend it as a substitute for a PLB. Cheers! Ty

I have in my possession but haven't yet installed an Onno "Gas peddle" steering system for our Bullitt because I have not liked the tiller. I didn't have a chance to install it before the Blackburn. You mis-understood me on that one. I was putting the security of the spray skit into question. ...casting doubt on its security in really big waves. Wow! In considering the total of your comments, I think that my thinking about sit-on vs. sit-in was constrained by thoughts of the Blackburn and typical east coast conditions. Before reading your posts I had not understood that surf skis are built for a sport that is actually quite different from just paddling fast. I think of surf as a noun and it refers to breaking waves that you play in and get rolled in. In my "surf" context, a quick roll is preferable to a re-mount. You have painted a different picture where "surf" is a verb and is about a paddling strategy using the waves in a quest for ultimate speed. The waves can be very large, fast and are often not breaking and I expect that for the breaking stuff you normally stay ahead of the break. I see your point about the problems and restrictions of effective spray skirts and how that makes a sit-on-top desirable. I've got to say that the picture you attached is quite impressive. Thank you for engaging me on this. I believe that I am now less ignorant. Cheers! Ty

You may have missed my point and that may be my fault. I wasn't questioning the sport. I was trying to learn if there is anything inherit in the physics of a surf ski that makes them faster or safer. I think that on the speed question, there in nothing in the physics but there is something in the history, culture and market forces. On the issue of safety I think that there is still room for discussion. A reasonably skilled roller knows that a roll is easy and points out that surf ski pilots in mild conditions have difficult re-mounting. A skilled surf ski pilot knows that he can remount his surf ski in rough conditions and points out that people miss rolls in mild conditions. That one may be a matter of personal preference and where your skills are for most cases. There is still the question of the security of a spray skirt in the REALLY big stuff. Cheers! Ty

Wow! That was an amazing bit of writing! ...and pretty much exactly what I was looking for. You paint a picture of a seriously fun sport. May I ask you to confirm that my understanding on a few things is correct? Most importantly and objectively, it is possible to build a sit-in that runs with the skis. However... Surf skis are not just a boat. They are a sport and more importantly a culture with a history. This specific form of boating evolved in a context where sit-on's were preferred. Now when people join the surf ski sport, they join the community as well and expect to use a ski, not a kayak. There is the advantage of not frigg'n with a spray skirt, just jump on and go. In this context there is little demand for a kayak with all the features that a surf ski uses to achieve its performance. ...thus there are no kayaks on the market that are as good at this sport as the surf skis on the market. Does that seem correct? Thank you! Would a small combing like that of a greenland kayak or a small opening (I think its called) "ocean cockpit" with a modern spray skirt hold up in these conditions? I'll preemptively agree that a small cockpit is difficult to get back in to and less convenient than a self draining SOT seat. But I am still curious about the specific question. The only experience I have with a really fast hull is (ironically) a few hours in a couple of rented V10's, a Sport and an L. I am reasonably competent at rolling our WSBS Bullitt, the tandem touring sibling to a Thunderbolt. Thus far it is my experience that higher performance hulls are very easy to roll but may desire a sculling brace at the finish while regaining my balance. I've only paddled with a wing twice. Once on a recent trip the the Isles of Shoals in conditions that had the CG all but requiring us to accept a ride and the Blackburn. On the 'Shoals trip I was really impressed with how the wing worked well with a "proper" forward stroke and improved my form. I'm not sure that I'm really a strong enough paddler to go faster with a wing, but I figured that the better form would result in better endurance and so rented a wing for the Blackburn. I'm pretty sure that there is a spot forming amongst my gear for one. ...and even with my rather limited wing experience, yes I have done a couple of rolls with one. ...in our tandem Bullitt. Both rolls were done to cool off. The first during the paddle to the Blackburn start line. We had over dressed a bit since the forecast was for wind and seas. The second was also done to see if we could pull the roll after our version of a sprint to the finish. I found the wing to work extremely well with a greenland like sweep/layback roll and a sculling finish. Yes, I brace and scull with the wing. Learned it on the 'Shoals trip while chatting with the Coast Guard in near "Small Boat Warning" conditions. 25-27 knot winds and 3-5 foot seas that were steep, short length and rough as a cobb, sometimes breaking. Its less that I'm bent out of shape and more that I had minor knee surgery this morning and so am laid up on the couch with little more to do than create a raucous on the message boards. ...for that I apologize. I'm also an engineer by nature and so get distressed by popular claims that don't seem to be backed up by the physics involved. If I have understood you correctly, its not the physics that makes the speed claims true, but perhaps history, culture and resulting market demand. Your response was of exceptional quality. I really did enjoy reading it. Thank you! Cheers! Ty

White water kayakers like to be very tight. "Forward stroke" kayakers like to be very loose. I started out by outfitting my boat so that my hips where quite tight. I did this in the context of learning to roll and it helped. Since I've learned to roll, I've focused a bit more on comfort, convenience and forward stroke. I've also loosened up my hip pads considerably and I've brought my knees in closer together. I an also now able to roll a boat with considerable extra space around my hips. flopping around would be a fair description. I hold my self in my boat with my knees or thighs under the combing. If you want to shim up tight while learning to roll, that might be useful. However, the close but not tight suggestion will probably work better for real sea kayaking. Also, you will probably find tight hip pads difficult to get into for a re-entry and roll. Thighs under the combing (or masik) are a more effective solution for that. Cheers! Ty

That proves only that they are fast, not that they are faster. Though I'm not a racer in the paddling world, I have been in the auto racing world. I've seen where a car that was capable of winning in the hands of a top driver completely over rode the class. ...and not because it was superior. It over ran the class because the manufacturer offered considerable awards for winning races in their cars. A top driver will win at least sometimes even if the car is a little slower. ...thus all the top drivers went to this car. Now look at the race results; all the winning cars are this sponsored car that isn't necessarily the best. Now, everyone who wants to be fast of course goes out and buys the car that is winning and everyone assumes that it is a dominant car due to its performance when its not. I suspect that someone built a particularly fast surf ski that was in the 21 foot long class when all the fastest kayaks were only 17 feet long to comply with classing rules. Note that an Epic surf skis are 21 feet long while their racing kayaks are only 17 feet. Now in contexts where the 17 foot rule doesn't apply the surf skis are cleaning up. I'd not be surprised that a 21 foot surf ski is faster than a 17 foot K1. But is a 21 foot surf ski faster than a 21 foot K1? We don't know because the top paddlers have gone to surf skis and Epic doesn't make a 21 foot K1. Saturday was utterly flat by open water standards. You and Rick have pointed out that its their sport and kayakers are not except from the zealot label. You are correct. However, what I was challenging is their claims of surf skis being inherently faster and safer. I'm looking for a solid explanation of why and/or objective data. I've not been able to find any. Blackburn results don't prove that they are faster as explained above in the car example. It only proves that the faster paddlers are on 'skis. I didn't see any Rapier20's or Marauders there. The only "HP Kayak" was 16 minutes behind the fastest ski (plus those skis took a detour) but that was Doug's _TOURING_ model! The EFT is over 2 feet shorter at the water line and 17% wider! Its hull shape has been tuned for more stability. Additionally, I have no idea how strong a paddler was in the EFT. For me to show up with a Rapier20 would be pointless because I couldn't out paddle the top ski paddlers even if they where in a rec boat. Safer is an empty claim if it only applies to flat water as the "risk"' of a roll or re-entry failure is about nill on flat water. IMHO the safety card only comes into play where the conditions make safety a concern. If we aren't talking about at least a small craft advisory context, we aren't talking about safety concerns where skilled paddlers are involved. I know that NSPN isn't about the surf ski sport, but people do cross over and I've seen in the archives that some NSPN'ers are also surf ski folks so I was hoping to learn who is ignorant about the speed/safety claims; me or those making the claims. ...and I do intend to rent that V10 again, just for the fun and experience. Thanks! Ty

Additionally, I bet I can roll in conditions that these guys can't remount a skinny ski. I see no difference in hull speed between a ski and a sit-in. That is hull design and I see no reason it needs to be different. The Rapier20 is 20' x 17.25" and the WSBS Marauder is 21' x 17". The WSBS Marauder has an understern rudder just like the skis. Check the Marauder. Its 24lbs. and that number is most likely real. When we bought our Bullitt from Doug, he guessed it woult be 48lbs the way we had it built. When we got it home, our scale said 48lbs. Since we were planning to spend some time touring on the rocky Maine coast with it, we had it built with Kevlar and an extra layer of glass. No carbon. We are already happy we avoided the carbon because we had a friend trip backwards over it and fall on it. They caved in the top deck just ahead of the read paddler. When she got back up the popped right back into shape and we went paddling. You can see a two marks, but no repair was needed. I LOVE Kevlar! The WSBS boats have cockpits/combings/seats designed for exactly that. I've spent about 4 hours on a pair of rented Epic V10 Skis. One a "Sport" and the other an "L". For a very limited context, they do offer some simplicity of operation. If all you want to do is go fast and are happy to avoid the really bumpy rides, then that's fine. My question was focused more around the pretty much arrogant attitude that seems to emanate from some of the surf ski crowd about how they are faster and superior. I see no reason for a SOT hull to be faster than a sit-in hull because the hull has nothing to do with the seating or the deck. I also disagree with the safety bit. If safety in rough conditions is really the point, then learn to roll. Rolling in rough conditions is MUCH easier than re-mounting a skinny hull (sit-on or sit-in, it doesn't matter) in those same rough conditions. Rolling is also faster and takes much less energy. Are there any real surf ski folks who read this forum that would be willing to comment on this? I find it puzzling and unless there is something I'm missing, the surf ski zealots sound a bit ignorant as well as arrogant. In the end, I'm always going to prefer a sit-in because they are much more versatile when it comes to playing in waves, playing in rocks or carrying gear for camping. Cheers! Ty

I've done some asking around of people that are close to these activities, but not directly involved. Since they are not directly involved they are not 100% certain of the facts, but from what they can tell he failed on experience, judgement and equipment. Some of the more serious points were: - going into the backcountry (off anything other than the most traveled trails) without snow shoes (or skis). Post-holing is VERY slow going, consumes enormous amounts of energy and results in things like falling into streams that could have been walked across. He NEVER should have left a solid trail or continued on one that was getting deeper/softer. - His clothing is believed to be lacking. He may have been wearing summer hiking boots and didn't have enough warm clothing. It is likely that even seasonal temperatures would have killed him. He got lucky on the weather. - It is a very long and difficult trail to do in a day. Given the above, it was probably above his experience level. An experienced hiker with good judgement may be just fine soloing that route. He was not experienced and had poor judgement. Though not as blatant as some cases, the search was created by him, not the accidental twisted ankle. I've read on some forums about how we had gear including crampons. That's cool, but he needed snow shoes. I've read that he did everything right and was oh so clever with the sanitizer gel. That's cool too, but he did a lot wrong to get himself into trouble. ...but I must reiterate, that my "facts" may not be entirely correct. Oh, and the "fine" is ridiculously steep. Cheers! Ty

...and I'd MUCH rather have one of those or one of these than a surf ski. ...and I see no reason that a surf ski would be faster.

This may not be the best place to ask, but I'm not a member on any surf ski boards. Why are boats that require a swim if your balance fails you so popular? Why do people believe that a sit-on-top kayak is faster than than a traditional sit-in kayak? They seem to be popular for speed, yet I see no reason that a sit-in with the same hull and a lower seat (no need for self bailing) would be anything other than more stable and easier to paddle fast. The difference that I see is that a sit-in offers more space to carry stuff for a day trip (if you care to), should be more stable and can be rolled if a wave takes you over. I realize that leg straps are possible, but I'm not seeing them on the fast skis. Thanks! Ty

On my first quick pass while at work I had missed what is now #6. That one is even better. We're in sync! :-) Thanks! Ty

Great pictures! Number 222 is an esp. good shot! ;-)

Though some of your comments that are closer to this incident may have some merit, the above blanket statement is out of line. $260K is not small potatoes and in NH the governor does not spend that much on a couple of lavish parties. That is why NH has one of the lowest total tax rates in the country vs. places like CA. Note how now CA is in a serious financial jam and NH is not. Ty

Here is the thread: http://www.viewsfromthetop.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31231 I don't know if the folks there are better informed than the press and they certainly chat about a lot more than the objective facts, but it may be that he was better equipped and more sensible than the press coverage seemed to suggest to me. Ty

Thanks! I read that and then armed with a name I was able to find others: http://news.google.com/news?pz=1&ned=u...out+Scott+Mason Unfortunately, what I found was typical of press reporting. There is a serious lack of information. The original post (or a follow up here) said that he self rescued. I didn't find that in any of what I read. Some of what is lacking is what equipment he had and what conditions he wandered into. It sounds like he didn't have a map. It sounds like he didn't have flotation (snow shoes, skis, etc) which is absolutely required for hiking up there when there is snow. In the spring you can get away without it if you stick to the trails. I'm going out on a limb here and since the reports lack critical detail, but it sounds like he was seriously under equipped and was negligent by leaving the trail into deep soft snow. In short, he may have done everything right once he was lost, but may have done many key things wrong up to that point. ...but I could be wrong. However, even if what I'm guessing is correct the amount of the fine seems very steep. There are much better people to make examples of than this kid. I'm thinking of the ones who do what he did, but instead of having some survival skills they lack basic clothing, come armed with a cell phone and call for help when they get tired. As for the MA vs NH comparison, MA gets a small fraction of these problems because MA doesn't have the "recreational wilderness" that NH, VT and ME have and so their problem is much smaller. On a per capita basis, the cost of rescues much higher for NH than MA. ...and I'll go out on one more limb and suggest that NH residents might not be the cause of the disproportionate statistics. Independent of all of the above, I found this quote quite disturbing: It is too dangerous for people who are careless or negligent, but that blanket statement is absurd. I know some people who might know some people who might know a bit more about what happened. I'll check. Cheers! Ty

Anyone have any links to information or key words I could use to search? Thanks! Ty

Uhhh... Yeah... That was a typo!

...Emilie seems to be addicted and ready to do it again tomorrow! I'm going to have to get her out on some NSPN strips with you guys. Cheers! Ty

...and fished that guy out of the water twice!

Emilie and I came in last, exceeding our wildest expectations with a finish in under 4 hrs and earning a 2nd place medal in the process. We were in a class of two boats. ;-) It was interesting getting swallowed up by the faster surf skis on the river. They started 5 minutes after our group. A little later we were swallowed up by a large group of slower surf skis. ...then we hit the open water which we considered to be flat but a significant group of surf skis was suddenly doing a lot more bracing than they had on the river. It was foggy from shortly after the start until we were past Milk Island. Though the front runners ran straight across Sandy Bay to Straightsmouth, everyone that was within sight or ear shot (we could hear further than see, by far) followed the coast line adding some distance to their day. Emilie and I are quite comfortable with instrument navigation (GPS, map, compass. No problem completing the crossing by compass even if the GPS quits) so we were able to make up some ground there. We got to Straightsmouth in about 1:50 and ahead of a group of faster surf skis that had followed the shore. We fished a surf ski guy out of the water a bit past Pebble Beach. ...then fished him out again less than a minute later. ...a bit later we watched one of the official boats fish him out a third time a few miles further. We rounded the jetty into Gloucester Harbor feeling a bit tired. However, with about a mile and a half to go, we dug deep and started pushing faster. I had been watching a fixed seat rowing rig (not too skinny) and noticed that though he had been quite a ways ahead of us, we were closing on him reasonably fast. This motivated us to push even harder starting about a mile out from the finish. The last half mile we managed to do at a (for us) full sprint of nearly 6mph. We didn't catch the rowing machine (missed by about 30 seconds?) but we did managed to get it done in 3:58. This exceeded our best hopes. We crossed the line strong and then died. We slowly coasted and lightly paddled our way to the shore. We were very hot from the sprint and I wondered if we could roll our boat in our tired state. So, we tipped the boat over, and failed at our first attempt. We followed our agreed on protocol to go to the other side when a roll fails and succeeded. Among the surf skis, I was a bit shocked at the lack of skill and preparation for an open water paddle. Except that there were lots of people around to haul their buts out of the water if they got into real trouble, they had no business being out in open water. They had no paddle float and often took several tries to get back in the boat. ...if they could get back in at all. If the weather and winds had been as forecast in the morning, a number of them couldn't possibly have finished. The water was IMHO flat by open water standard. There was virtually no wind and the seas were no more than a foot or so at the worst. I'm not going to claim that I'm any better in a surf ski than these guys. ...but I also would have never done this event in a surf ski without better skills. Emilie and I put quite a bit of effort into making sure that we were ready for conditions that we were likely to encounter before doing this race. We improved our ability in our tandem by huge leaps and bounds over the past month or so just so that we would be safe out there. Some of these guys did not. Regardless, we had a blast! That was the fastest we've ever paddled and over a distance. We're already talking about doing it again next year. Oh, and for those of you that think you can't do it, you just might be surprised. You should try. I would expect that most NSPN'ers are better prepared than some of the people we saw complete today. Pictures are posted here: http://picasaweb.google.com/tyson.sawyer/2...feat=directlink Cheers! Ty

Now that is a constructive comment.

I feel that this sort of no-judgement policy can go too far. If I go swimming, do I have to wear a PFD? If I have a floaty raft, do I need a PFD for that? ...what about an inner tube? I grew up playing with my grandparents' canoe. Canoeing was often more of a swimming activity for me than a paddling activity. The canoe spent a lot of time upside down or swamped because that seemed like fun. I would also swim the roughly 1/4 mile to a nearby island. If I swim up to a canoe while not wearing a PFD, is that unsafe? If I get in that canoe, am I suddenly less safe than I was while swimming? IMHO, blanket statements that PFDs must _ALWAYS_ be worn fail to consider why we wear them and what the can and can-not do for us. The PFD's that we typically wear while kayaking will not safe us if knocked unconscious. If we are otherwise in a context where we would be happy spending an extended period of time in the water swimming, I don't see a problem with boating without a PFD. ...though this guy did not qualify. It should be noted that I can't recall a time that I've kayaked without one, but I wouldn't rule it out under all circumstances. Cheers! Ty