lhunt

Red deck with black stripes right down the middle (one wide one, two narrow to either side). Tentatively, that is. And a black graphite hull. Here is my very bad drawing - Dan is going to make me a better one when there is a chance. It turns out there won't be any visible black hatches - they'll be wooden and painted like the boat. I wish (!) -Lisa

Thanks, all! As you can see, I'm like a dog with two tails about it. (Should change the little guy to say "Wahoo")

Perhaps the DIY'ers in the NSPN crowd would be interested in the following story: Mustang Sally is a stripper... Hmm, no, that doesn't have a promising sound to it... :-) I am a proud co-beneficiary of a new John Winters design for a low-volume "Fast Sea Kayak" (FSK). A true low-displacement 18' racer is a rare beast, and I was so enamored of the design I was going to strip her myself (lack of skills notwithstanding). But at the last minute I stumbled across the web site of Dan Caouette in northern NH, and common sense (not to mention impatience) prevailed - now there's an expert in charge. Dan is building her at astonishing speed, documented in his Facebook page. She'll be painted like a race car, so she has been dubbed "Mustang Sally". Target weight: 32 lb. Target date: May 5 (!) I'm working like crazy trying to get the engine in shape in the meantime. Sally's 20" beam and other aspects of her hull shape make her a little tippier than my current boat, so I'm not sure how long it will take me to learn to keep the colored side up in rough water, but I'm looking forward to the challenge. In the meantime, following the build online is a real trip. Just thought I'd share it! Lisa

Congrats, Matt! 1:55 for 10 miles in shallow water is no small feat. I always feel like shallow water messes with my cadence (and with my head). Maybe I'll see you at the ROTC - which race are you entered in? -Lisa

I wish! Then I could really clean up in the rec class in the races :-)

I'd be willing to come with my QCC to give a little variety if you like. Do you have any use for a rec boat (even if it's to point out why they are not good for the ocean)? -Lisa

Last October, I borrowed a wooden boat with an eye to building a similar one someday. I wanted to see how it performed in rough water. Luckily, the weather cooperated, dishing out nice bumpy-but-not-too-bumpy conditions in Salem Sound. Afternoon winds were forecast at 14-18 kn steady, and seemed about that. Beam waves were not that big (2-1/2 - 3 ft.?) but were sharp and unpredictably choppy. Leon and I paddled west out of a calm and foggy Manchester and stopped for a quick lunch as we waited for the predicted winds to blow up. Then we continued to hug the shore for about 3 miles, stopped for a little rest, and headed back. The hull design performed very well. The boat was outfitted for flat water racing (knees up only, high seat, no backrest, short rudder), but it took the waves predictably and sensibly. Leon had his deck cam going and kept it pointed in the right direction for much of the time, which is very difficult in those conditions, especially as he took on some water during the launch for the return trip and decided to paddle on regardless. In short, we had a blast. Recently I dug the video out to share with the boat designer and waxed a little nostalgic, so I'm sharing it here, too. It is spliced to show snippets from both the outward and return journey. If the paddler looks a little stiff, well, as they say, practice, practice, practice. Looking forward to more practice when the "dog days of winter" are over! Video here Lisa

Ha! Yes, exactly right. I know, I was thinking about your hypothetical new one.

I think you get gradual salt buildup because flushing with fresh water just isn't enough. I noticed this with my waterproof camera - I would rinse it, then soak it for 10 minutes in warm water (per mfg. instructions) but if I looked closely after several uses it was still getting a white chalky buildup even after all that. Next step, corrosion and a new camera (fortunately under warranty). When it started happening on the new camera, I had to use a toothbrush and salt-away at first to get the buildup off, then I started just wetting it with salt-away every time and that seems to be holding it at bay. (Of course one has to be very very careful to keep salt-away off the clear lens cover). The instructions on the salt-away specify to work it into every knob and button, so I do that, too, wetting the buttons and knobs then working them with the salt-away on them, then rinsing the whole thing, holding it under water and working the buttons there, too. I've been doing this to my radio, too (after Leon pointed out the problem), and so far so good. But of course I don't use it as much as he does. Sounds like a lot of work, but once you get into the habit of it it only takes a few minutes. -Lisa

I'm glad the others answered you, Tom, I've been offline. Yes, if you like the Surge I think it's a good choice. If you can get a used one, that's great. If not, in my opinion the best things are worth waiting for... As far as tying up money goes, there's a chance they won't charge you until it ships (or you go up to buy it). It's worth asking. I have almost 3,000 miles on my QCC and when I took it for the first wear repair (the seat), the repair guy couldn't believe it was so well traveled. Of course I don't take it rock playing(!) But, as Leon says, both boats are very rugged for the weight. So I hope you base your choice on the boat features, etc, not that. For these special order boats, you can try calling the seller (Billington or QCC) and ask them if they can hook you up with an owner who will let you sit in their boat or try it out. I decided on my QCC during the winter and ordered it sight unseen. This got me the boat tax-free in January, so I could try it out in March when the river thawed. It left me time to return it if I didn't like it (they pay shipping both ways) and buy something else. But if I didn't have that option I would have liked to try one first. -Lisa

Displacement is weight of boat + weight of payload, so with the same paddler and gear the difference in displacement is going to be entirely the weight of the boat. If your racing boat is lighter than your sea kayak, it's going to displace less water, regardless of length. Maybe you are saying your hypothetical sea kayak is the lighter of the two(?) The biggest factors for speed are waterline length, wetted surface, and displacement. Racing boats are typically narrower and lighter and less "full" (have a lower Prismatic Coefficient). That keeps displacement down. They also try to keep the wetted surface as low as possible for a given waterline length, which means, among other things, low rocker. Keeping displacement and wetted surface low will reduce drag at any speed. Having a longer waterline reduces drag only at higher speeds. To state it a different way, a longer waterline does not necessarily make a boat faster, but it gives it a higher speed limit. Since the longer waterline can also affect the other factors (wetted surface and displacement), the tradeoff point depends on the force you put into your cruising stroke. No, clearly not, but for a given hull design, the lighter layup will be easier to paddle. So for your hypothetical example above, let's consider a lightweight Surge (15' waterline sea kayak) vs. a heavy-layup Epic 18X (18' waterline). For a good fitness paddler going at speed, the 18X might be easier, but for an average paddler cruising informally, the Surge might be easier. Note, however, that the racer would probably buy a lighter layup, because he will be competing against lightweight 18Xs. I don't believe that the added length you get when you add more weight to a boat with an upswept bow "counts" as waterline length, because it is not extending deeply enough into the water. Of course, there are other tradeoffs that have nothing to do with speed (stability, rough water handling, car-top-ability, seal landing ability, maneuverability, fit, durability, aesthetics, price, volume for camping, etc.) That's why many people have more than one boat(!) -Lisa

Mmm... but which one uses less gas? Sorry, couldn't resist. -Lisa (Seriously, though, the weight hurts more when carrying than when paddling.)

No harm in getting a little off topic (good thing, since we always do!), but I want to poke back to the original question to see if we can gather any more concrete suggestions. We didn't post a link to QCC yet - here it is. For open-water touring, these boats are spot on. And Stellar has some light boats that look similar in usage. Current Designs has some lighter boats (Willow, Rumour, Suka) all for "lighter paddlers" - I notice from an older post you are (or were) 5'9" at 184, so that's iffy but might be worth a try. I mention them because they are a little more Quest-like. Also, if you haven't already, I would check with CRCK or some other dealer. There may be unfamiliar layups available for familiar boats. I'm sure I remember seeing a Chatham 16 or 17 in a light clearcoat carbon at CRCK a couple of years ago, and don't see it on Necky's website. Of course, as has been said, light layups are expensive! If you shop around for carbon boats, you will soon see why I keep mentioning QCC. I guess you probably know that the weights given by manufacturers (with the exception of QCC) usually do not include hatch covers and rigging. Many of the lighter, straighter boats have rudders, so it may be a tradeoff you want to consider. I will add my 2 cents that rudders seem to be less troublesome than skegs (less jamming) and easier to fix in the field. From the wording above, it sounds like you might think the rudder is for steering, not for open water straight paddling, so I will mention that mostly one uses the rudder to keep a straight course in a crosswind. I dread sinking into the rudder vs. skeg debate here, though! -Lisa

Hi, Tom, Seconding Leon - I love my carbon Q600X and can easily get it to the top of my car. Depending on your volume needs you might also consider a Surge. -Lisa

I think that probably the first mark is when the paddle first starts to enter the water, and for the first couple of marks only a little of the paddle is in the water. So it isn't doing much and hence moves forward with the boat. The experts always say to hesitate at the catch until the whole paddle is in the water before pulling back and unwinding the rotation, so that may be what we're seeing. Once it gets a good grab he pulls it so it goes stationary and the boat moves past it. Notice that the dots are closer together during the pullback. Then, once it's not being pulled on and is well on its way to exiting it moves forward again, with the boat. It really shows why the pros put so much emphasis on getting a good fast catch and exit - your paddle is working against you for a brief time then.

I get you. You mean bending the leg allows rotation, but doesn't actively pull one around. That's what a pull bar would be for. Right. -Lisa

But, but, but... I made this same mistake in an earlier post and got (correctly) bonged by Leon. You can't really separate rotation from providing force to the paddle. If you're doing it right the rotation is the force you give to the paddle. You transmit the trunk rotation through your arms and hands to the paddle, so anything you can do to amplify that rotation (including bending a leg) helps you go forward. Of course, it's possible to do the rotation without the transmission. You can have lots of hip rotation and some trunk rotation but the shoulders can be lazy and break the chain. Or you can start unwinding before the whole paddle is in the water, a common mistake. Maybe that's what you meant. I think you can be sure, though, that isn't happening in Greg Barton's video! -Lisa

Well, I guess it would. I was thinking of using it more at the end of the stroke than the beginning, but there's no basis for that. I'm speculating wildly here, will now try to back out gracefully... :-)

Ugh, what sunlight? You mean is a pull bar standard equipment on flatwater K1s? Sorry, I don't know.

I don't have very much to add. Some of my answers to the "what do you do" questions are different simply because I'm smaller and my cockpit is different. “Do you have the footpeg distances set the same for touring and racing and how much bend in your leg do you have when the leg is relaxed and/or at end of stroke?” I always use the footbar at the same place. My legs are bent enough to make little lumps in the sprayskirt. That's about 5" or so, I think. I have no thigh braces in my boat, but because I have relatively short legs, my knees can be up in most cockpits I've ever tried - sometimes it's close though. The unhappy flip side of this is that if I try to use your average thigh braces I end up with them hitting me in the kneecap. “Along the same line, does the angle of your foot change during the stroke and what angle do you find best for long distance paddling?” The foot angle is a little like softly marching on the balls of my feet. Unfortunately, it's not unlike walking in high heels (as I remember from my distant past). OK if I'm just tooling around, but gets painful on long fast runs. Changing away from the rounded SmartTrack footpegs helped a lot. “Regarding hip rotation, I take it you find (as do I) the "frog" leg position into which some seats and cockpit configurations seem to force a paddler not helpful for good hip rotation.” Yes. I have heard it said that the current conventional outfitting wisdom is to not wedge yourself in too tightly for this very reason. I don't think that means you can't sit frog-legged, just maybe not too tight. “Seems to me a relatively slick and flat seat as opposed to tractor seatpan is more conducive to decent leg position and hip rotation. A foam seat seems to add enough friction to be a factor as well.” I think the best seat has enough bucket to support your tailbone region so that you don't need a backband. It's much easier to sit up straight if you have a little rise at the back of the seat. “I wonder to what extent the assumption we need constant thigh contact for control during routine paddling is restricting our forward stroke. Seems to me having at least a couple of inches clearance when the leg is relaxed is a reasonable balance between having space to cycle the legs and being able to obtain firm contact on the thigh braces when necessary.” I think it depends a lot on what you do. I hardly ever put knees under, but I hardly ever surf or do rock play either. That being said, yes, I think a little looseness is a good thing. -Lisa

Don't laugh, it has been done! Called a "pull bar", here is a picture (with a tiller bar rudder control). I don't see it working with a gas-pedal rudder - you can only do so much with your feet. I'm on the theoretical "it would work OK" side, since I try to take my foot off the footbar during the windup anyway. I think all you would use it for is to help you rotate your hips, not for propulsion. But I mention this just for interest, not as a proponent.

I don't see it, Scott. I have two unrelated observations, though: Make sure in your floor experiment your feet are up against a wall to simulate footpegs. The movement feels very different otherwise.Most of the power is in the very first part of the stroke. You are rotating to set up for a snap backward, but also to extend the paddle as far as possible toward your toes so as to get a few more inches of this power. Sliding the opposite hip forward undermines this goal. Rotating the way you describe would give your torso a nice tight twist, but I don't think it would transmit the untwisting into forward movement all that well. And it would have your hips working against you during the all-important first "catch" phase of the stroke. Remember that in a normal Euro or Wing paddle stroke you are exiting the water when your hand is at your hip. (GPs are a whole different story, of course.)There is a nice detailed written description from Greg Barton here. -Lisa

It looks to me like the elite racers face where they are going (see here, for example). The gentleman who so kindly helped me with my stroke suggested moving the head "a little" in practice as an aid to loosening up and learning the stroke. I never managed it for long, however, as it makes me seasick, and it's hard to focus on a small distant point in front of you as so often happens on long crossings.

I just had another thought (while mowing the lawn, of all things) that maybe the opposite foot pushing is more appropriate for paddling a play boat. I don't have much experience in that realm, but it seems that the increased rocker and shorter waterline that give you more maneuverability might contribute to yaw if you push hard with both foot and paddle on the same side when paddling straight ahead. -Lisa

Re: Brian and Sir Christopher, I guess my take on this is that if you have your knees really locked under the coaming your rotation is limited to torso. That's better than not rotating at all, and locking the knees is better for "wearing your boat" in rough water. Pushing hard on the feet in that position locks you in even tighter, and it's possible to overdo that, especially if you are feeling a little unstable. Pumping the legs in that position is probably not going to help much, but you can still rotate at the waist without pumping. But if your knees are up or even just fairly loose under the coaming, you might be able to extend the rotation down to the hips. That, of course, depends on your seat. Some people enhance the ability to "squirm" in a "normal" seat by putting a trash bag or other shiny plastic on the seat. Then if you can pump the legs it helps your butt rotate a little more. As you tense up your trunk muscles to pull back the paddle, you get another inch or so of rotation from straightening the leg and turning the butt back in the seat. My seat has a reasonably good shape for movement. It has a backband, but when I'm really pushing I sit up more to be mostly free of it. I think the backband is still giving me a little support, but it's hung from bungees, so it moves with me. I have no experience with paddling with straight legs - I guess from imagination I can only say that it's more efficient to "resist" with muscles, because you can use those muscles to amplify the movement. I'm not sure what you mean about fore-aft movement - the racing boats I've looked at have seat adjustments to trim the boat, or to get you properly centered in the cockpit, but the seats stay fixed while paddling.