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>most important(by far) winter skill of them all: judgment >But that applies year round, doesn't it? > IMHO, judgment is the most important skill and safety whatever. Of course judgment is derived from experience and often from bad experiences. Ed Lawson

> > > >FWIW, the Etowah is probably the most popular among >Appalachian Trail thru-hikers. I think it would be enlightening to find out from the thru-hikers in Maine what equipment they started with as opposed to what equipment they ended with and why. In theory, I think I would prefer a gas cartridge stove for kayaking due to ability to haul stuff easily and performance for short trips. For a minimalist stove for emergencies more or less, I think the heat tab stoves make sense as the fuel could be used to start fires and the whole package is small and easily stored. Not that I think making fires is all that useful, but I'm odd. As evidence, I still use a Svea 123. Ed Lawson

No opinion, but this might give you some info to mull over. http://art.simon.tripod.com/Stoves/ Ed Lawson

Well Kevin, you started what has turned out to be a most educational thread. How about gear to brew up hot drinks/soup or cook a little meal in case benighted on that windswept ledge? What have folks used and why do you prefer your choices? Ed Lawson

>When it gets cold, those fancy sealed chart cases (I’m >told) can fog up, a pretty good argument for laminated >charts. I just gave up on those cases as you often really want to look more closely at the chart and it was a pain to do on the water or to refold the chart. I now make copies of the sections of the chart I will be needing, make sure scale and compass rose info is marked and then have two sheets laminated together. I also carry a waterproof chart for the being able to see the big picture. A small red LED light is great for night stuff. Writing all the tide/current info, course and distance calcs and other pertinent stuff down in a notebook in advance can help. Being a neophyte, I have a hard time adjusting to different scales so I easily get confused as to just how far off things should be and notes in advance can help avoid big mistakes. This fall I almost ended up heading for the Brothers instead of Halifax due to such confusion. I like to write in a notebook rather than on chart as the marks on the laminated chart rub off too easily. If the fog rolls in, you just pull out the notebook and you have the info needed for the crossings without messing with the chart. As most know, the Nav-Aid is a really, really nice thing to have at hand. Ed Lawson

>I know what a 4* should have, since I just did the >assessment, And your questions suggest you are about to start on 5*, correct? Have fun and good luck on your new quest if so. Reading the BCU materials suggests to me the standards are based on a 4* paddler being a competent member of nearly any coastal trip while a 5* paddler would be competent to plan and lead any coastal trip. So I would assume the kit would be essentially the same and most likely what any well prepared coastal paddler would take along. While rough water paddling skills are expected, it seems the real measure of paddlers at the higher levels of the BCU track is probably not their rough water skills, but rather their demonstrated overall seamanship and leadership skills. So thinking of those who have attained the higher levels as simply paddlers who can easily handle rough water is too simplistic. Don't know if true or not and would be interesting what those who have go through the process think. Ed Lawson

>Any recommendations in re a bivy sack? Now one tends to see all manner of small tent like gear sold as a bivy sacks with zippers and other "features" that are not needed and constitute failure points. I would avoid them. If you want a shelter, take a tarp. The $25 Thermo-Lite Sack sold by Campmor is what OFs like me consider a bivy sack and would do the job for an odd night or two out. Especially if you have a decent cag or cagoule. Actually a good cagoule can be used as a bivy sack, but finding a real one for climbing is next to impossible and the cags made for kayaking look too short to me. Ed Lawson

>Ok, I think I'm missing something. What's the difference >between a bivy, a bivy sack, a tent and a sleeping bag? Are >we using different names for the same things? In the climbing world the word bivy and bivy sck stand for the same thing although technically bivy is slang for bivouac and means spending the night out in the open or a minimal makeshift camp. Basically some type of weatherproof bag you can get in and spend a night on some narrow ledge should you need to. Impecunious climbers have been known to use garbage bags. Some buy expensive Gortex stuff and some buy inexpensive stuff from Campmor that does the job. It is common to now see all manner of fancy stuff to appeal to gearheads, but much is not real gear for rough use in the mountains and all you need is a tough, weatherproof bag that you can get in when you need to survive the night. Under normal conditions climbing a sleeping bag would not be carried, but for kayaking adding one of the small bags like a LaFuma 600 would make spending the night out more comfy. You could say a bivy sack and extra clothes provide for a climber what a tent and sleeping bag do for a camper. Kayaking allows one to carry so much stuff that while extra food, etc, is seldom needed for an unexpected day or two out, it is easy enough to bring along a small cooking set/stove and food and live large. Actually, if you cannot stay out overnight in a modicum of comfort in the summer with the gear you can get in a day hatch, then you need to rethink stuff. As to 4* v 5*. I am ignorant, but would it not be only those items a trip leader would be expected to have? Or are you asking about what you would need if taking the training/assessment? Ed Lawson

Gene: I can only augment in a small way the advice from Carl which is the best advice you will receive. Many boats from the major/long term makers are good boats. Whether any given boat is a good boat for you is a question only you can answer and you can only answer that question after paddling lots of boats and deciding what type of paddling you will predominately do. So the simple answer is to get a decent used boat that basically fits you at the lowest cost possible and go paddle the heck out of it. Along the way you will find what you like and do not like in terms of paddling and boats and then you can try boats with a more discerning palate as it were. I have no idea what an intermediate paddler is let alone what you mean by that or what type of paddling you like or will gravitate to. Ultimately the type of paddling you do will determine the boat you will find to be just right. You may find you need more than one boat, or you may not. Nobody can tell you which boat will be the right boat for you. People can tell you some good boats you should consider, but they would need to see you or at least know your weight, height, and athletic ability/flexibility to have an ability to do even that. Ed Lawson

Check please. Ed Lawson

Speaking of surf, this is a link to some neat pictures showing what can be done with a GP and SOF in the surf zone. http://www.capefalconkayak.com/biggersurftraining.html Ed Lawson

Need I say surf is up? http://www.whisc.com/webcam/ Ed Lawson

>Pool sessions, as I recall, were $20/person last year. Oh well, in for a penny, in for a pound. Gail recently gave me an atatl (throwing stick) so I need the time to work on hand rolling. Ed Lawson

> >Not at the moment... Kevin: If it would be $15 per person per session give or take a couple of dollars, then Gail and I will commit to both sessions, fair enough? Ed Lawson

>I need to know just how much interest there would be in a >Portsmouth session. Do you have an estimate on the cost per session? Would likely be interested. Ed Lawson

Scott: I suppose we have hijacked this thread enough, but seems a nice discussion so I will add a few more neophyte ruminations. >Those who feel they are going faster because they are "working harder" with a longer paddle are right only in the >sense that it is less efficient for the same speed or >distance. When trying boats, paddles, or playing with techniques, it is amazing how the mind/body plays tricks on us. A GPS and heart rate monitor really tell the tale and often it is not what we thought at first. >For most motions, the human body has more power >and endurance when it expends light effort more frequently >than heavy effort less frequently. ... Higher cadences in cycling require practice and learning skills before it becomes "normal". I suspect that is true of paddling too, but once you get it: you have it, it is automatic, and it enables you to maintain a good pace even when exhausted. > Proper paddle length has >little to do with your height: it's more the relationship of >your hands to the water when sitting in the boat. I suspect blade shape/size is also big factor in how well we paddle, but don't see that discussed much. I suspect there is little reason for most of us who are mediocre weekend warriors to be using the big blades favored by those active in the more "sports" aspects of kayaking. However, like boats, and other things, we tend to emulate the pros or coaches even if their abilities and needs are different from ours. Your comment also points out that it really is a function of a total system as in shape of the boat, etc. so that fixed rules are not particularly helpful. > >Long paddles are especially problematic for paddlers who >don't feel especially strong or who struggle to keep up on >trips. > A few weeks ago at the end of a long and hard day, I thought I was going slower than I should have been because I was using a GP so I switched to the euro with which I could normally move the AA faster Instead, it felt like I was sticking it in mud and I could not get the speed of rotation that felt "right" and which I could maintain. Everything just bogged down. The GPS showed the boat was over half a knot slower, and I was working out of sync and harder. Going back to the GP, the cadence went back up and the boat went faster. It was an example, I suspect, of the blade being matched to the effort I could make at my "normal" cadence that I could sustain effectively even when tired and, consequently, more effective. Then again, maybe I have been seduced by the dark side, and I was not using the euro properly. Ed Lawson

>As I had said earlier my >paddle is almost horizontal when I paddle because of rotator >cuff issues. If you can find a time and place, I suggest taking a forward stroke class with Danny Mongo of Impex kayaks. He has a great down to earth style, and I think he would be a good resource for how to deal with joints that are not perfect since he has some personal experience. Ben Lawry is a master as well. I suspect you might find the shoulders are not the limitation you think they are after some time with these instructors. Ed Lawson

>Typically, it takes a combination of strokes, edging and >skeg to deal with them, and it will take some >experimentation to determine the optimum combination for the >prevailing conditions. Which is why just going out and playing around with a boat to see how it works and what will work and not in terms of paddler/blade input is ultimately so very important. Ed Lawson

>anyways, the shorter shafts will allow you to bring the >stroke into a more vertical position and you can propel >yourself along a bit more efficiently. more bang for your >excercise buck. > To ask a follow up question. Would one way to select a length be to select a length that just fully puts the blade underwater with a tad to spare? I suppose that assumes a decent forward stroke. I found going down to 210 made many things, as in various control/turning strokes, easier and promoted a more vertical and shorter/efficient forward stroke. FWIW Ed Lawson

>I'll be there...christening the new stripper..finally! That does it. I doing what I can to be there, but cannot commit. Ed Lawson

> > >you wonder what could be swimming under you at any given >moment . . . One thing is certain. Once on the ocean, you are no longer on the top of the food chain. Ed Lawson

>(Here I'll save Gillian some keystrokes...) > >You wear something under your dry suit... that's not what >Gillian said. LOL (ducking). > On the contrary, G. wants him to wear some type of layer...think about those drysuit zippers...think about....nevermind. Ed Lawson

>Actually, many do start at 2-star, but we don't hear a lot >about them around here. The competitive pressures in NSPN, >especially on the public message board generally discourage >anyone from admitting that out loud. "but the original philosphy of paddling together, learning together and enthusiastically sharing with newcomers has been kept as the bedrock of the club." May I humbly suggest something seems amiss. FWIW Joe, the majority of folks you are likely to meet while paddling on NSPN trips really could care less about whether or not you have elected to pursue certification or, if so, what your level of certification happens to be. I'm not saying they will not care about your abilities as a paddler because they will be concerned for everyone's safety and enjoyment and growth, but that is another question and it is answered once your paddle is wet. Ed Lawson

> >The secret to tying this knot is to not let go of the >working (bitter) end of the rope. Not to disagree, but just as a comment; when using the bowline to tie into something or to use the loop around waist or other object, it is not always possible to tie a bowline as shown. Nevertheless it is a neat way to tie a bowline and good one to practice. Ed Lawson

> all I heard was Walter shout >up the stairs Walter shouting? Seems implausible. >Billy and Jason came down in >their footie pajamas And you did not post pictures? In any event, congrats to all and to all a good night...oh..nevermind. Ed Lawson