djlewis

I had an off/on roll until I spent 3 hours with Turner and Cheri. Best money ever spent.

GP roll, I presume?

Trouble is, whom do you go to for euro paddle rolling? I recommend Armand Mikune-Santos -- I think he is still working out of CRCK these days. Also, Bob Foote has done wonders for a number of people rolling, though he is not around here very much. And oddly enough, when I asked him for help on deep high bracing, I did not find him terribly effective. But there are a number of stories out there about Foote fixing someone's roll in five minutes without even getting out of his boat!

--David

Of course it's not going to work for everyone, just as not everyone will have a great forward stroke or any other skill. There are many things that I don't do particularly well and I consider myself a "passable" roller, no more. My point is that rolling is not some arcane skill only for "expert" paddlers; it's well within the grasp of most people who are willing to make the effort to learn. It doesn't require expensive equipment, professional instruction or any substantial degree of athleticism. It just requires dedication to learning a progression of skills, all of which are very useful on a regular basis, even if you never learn to roll. These can be learned at club events that cost virtually nothing.

I absolutely agree that rolling is not an arcane skill, reserved for the very athletic. I figured that out back in 2003 or so when I had the basics down and pondered learning to roll -- all sorts of non-athletes were doing it; crck was offering classes to all comers; etc etc.. IOW, I think your proposition here has been accepted for quite some time, and it's certainly the common view today.

The part I was focusing on is that, despite that, rolling is still a "finicky" body-mind skill -- it can be tricky to learn; it can be lost and regained; some people who oughta be able to roll (by whatever intuition) never seem to be able to, and vice versa. As someone pointed out, one of the reasons is that it's counter-intuitive, so your mind is working against your body in many ways. That's very unlike the forward stroke -- essentially anybody can get in a boat and make it go forward with no instruction, and get half-efficient at it with 10 minutes of on-water guidance -- it's the other half of the efficiency curve that we spend the rest of our paddling lives pursuing, especially the upper 10-20%.

So, as it turns out, many folks get stuck at one stage or another learning for reasons that have nothing to do with attitude or moral fiber. And it does no good to keep telling them that rolling is easy, and any idiot can do it -- in fact, that probably makes them more anxious and, rolling being very much a mind skill as well as body, actually makes it harder for them to progress.

Another personal story along these lines. As my roll was deteriorating in the last couple of years, my good-side roll was ragged and I couldn't even get up on my not-so-good side with any certainty, I decided to get a tune-up. I chose Armand Mikune-Santos because I had admired his coaching skill on a number of occasions. So I plunked down the money at CRCK where he was working and we paddled out of the dock and down the Charles. Well, for the first 15 minutes all we did was paddle slowly and chat -- about life, interests, activities, then a bit about kayaking, and then we got around to rolling, that is, chatting about rolling. By the time we got to a spot where he pulled over and said "how about here" I was so relaxed that I ran off three perfect rolls on both sides. Armand looked at me with a quizzical smile and asked what I needed him for! I said -- whoa, I do have a problem. So I kept going with the both the offside and onside rolls, and sure enough they started to deteriorate, and he gave me several good observations and pointers. Then we paddled back, and despite having paid for an hour of instruction and only gotten maybe 20 minutes of actual work, I was quite satisfied. (Except that my roll still keeps going south anyway -- the original glitch that I burned in way back is very stubborn, and I just don't work on it enough these days.)

--David

I will offer two bits of advice for anyone learning to roll and not just getting it the way Brian did.

#1 -- echoing Cathy -- do get some good professional or accomplished amateur instruction. Don't start taking a lot of random advice from friends; that could well confuse more than help you.

#2 -- if you have gotten your first roll and are working to make it better, smoother, more reliable but are either not making steady progress toward 100% and smooth, or even going backwards --stop practicing! You will just burn in bad habits. Go immediately to advice #1. (I speak from experience on this one -- my not-so-good side these days was actually my first rolling side. I did just what I am warning about here, and it pretty much permanently burned in a hitch that has now become even worse with lack of regular practice.)

My rolling story in a nutshell -- rolled after 2 hours of group instruction in the first class (with Kevin Horner at CRCK) -- spent the next year progressively losing it -- Marjorie Woodwell was a doll, went with me to several pool sessions and I got it back -- spent the next year perfecting it on both sides in combat -- reached a peak at Tybee with Steve Maynard -- great for a couple of years, all but bombproof -- started paddling less and rolling even less, and getting old, stiff hips -- developed some hitches in the movement and timing -- roll is now pretty shaky on one side, ok on the other, but not great.

BTW, in that first year of losing it, someone put a Greenland stick in my hands and I executed several perfect rolls instantly with almost no instruction. But I handed it back -- this is cheating -- I need to learn to roll with a rrrreal paddle! I have never failed a gp roll or scull or brace since, but I still cling to my spoon (= "Euro", Sir Chris) paddle -- too much investment in stroke training with it and not enough desire and time to redo it all with a gp.

Having observed lots of folks -- and myself -- fail and succeed at rolling, I can say with come confidence that it is easy for some and hard for others -- how's that for profundity! But for most of those who have trouble, I really don't think it's a matter of talking themselves out of something inherently easy. Some people are just better at it for a variety of reasons, mostly to do with athleticism, movement and motor skill, body-mind coordination, etc. You do understand, Brian, that there is a very wide range among human beings on these and other body-mind skills -- just because it was easy for you does not mean it can be easy for everyone. So have a little compassion for those who have been working on it for a long time -- and maybe offer them some of your expert instruction!

IF you have perfect technique, one could probably roll a tugboat... That said, certain boats are definitely more forgiving than others. And how many of us have perfect technique 100% of the time???

Yeah, Dubside rolls a rec boat in one of his videos. As for rolling a tugboat, seems like a cue for this again

http-~~-//www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYzpK3VqNXg

-- David

It really pains me to see statements like this, as it's simply not true. Yes, some people do struggle with learning to roll and portraying rolling as some difficult, arcane skill just makes it more likely that one will fail at it. If you believe it's hard, it will be hard and building it up to be some "big deal" just makes it worse. Rolling is just another paddle skill, like bracing, ruddering and sculling. It's not a big deal and it requires no more practice than these other skills do. When taught as part of a logical skills progression (low brace, high brace, deep high brace, roll), it can be easy to learn.

If you are struggling with rolling, I feel for you, but please don't project that onto other paddlers by perpetuating the myth that rolling is difficult.

Brian, you really ought to tell folks here -- most of whom don't know you and have never seen you paddle -- that you use a Greenland paddle. It really is important context.

Now if you wanna argue that the standard layback, extended-paddle greenland roll is no easier than the standard spoon paddle sweep or c-to-c rolls, then I think you will be on shaky ground. If, however, you compare the greenland roll to the pawlata or to a simulated greenland roll with a spoon paddle, you may have something. IMHO those rolls are almost as easy as the greenland roll, but not altogether. It's unfortunate that, perhaps because of the whitewater heritage of spoon paddle rolling, those techniques are not taught as much as they might be.

BTW, how is your spoon paddle roll these days? When did you last try one? When did you last have a spoon paddle in your hands while in a kayak?

--David

Ho hum, another incredible trip report from Kate!

Sounds like you guys had a great time. You almost define the art of paddling vacations.

--David

Here are two place to look for fairly detailed conditions forecasts, taking landforms, distance from shore, etc into account, things you don't get from the big swaths reported in NWS's usual marine forecasts. That's especially important in MA, given the major swell shadowing effect from the Cape, which fools a lot of people into thinking the swell will be bigger than it is (depending on the direction, of course). That effect doesn't apply as much to the Maine coast, except for Penobscot Bay, plus of course the local estuaries and peninsulas. But you can definitely see the N-S differences.

NWS graphical (scale a bit small)

http://graphical.weather.gov/sectors/maineMarineDay.php#tabs

Swellwatch, separate reports for N and S Maine coast

http://forecasts.surfingmagazine.com/#place=44.406316252661355_-67.752685546875_8_1879_height_none_Sat_-1

My solution is to replace the Icom M72 VHF radio every two years (whenever the on/off/volume control freezes up permanently)

I took Lisa's advice and got a spray bottle of Salt Away. Just used it once so far, but it appears to do the job nicely. Hey, I inadvertently ordered an extra bottle -- it's yours when you get back on the water.

--David

Dead at around 80 hours. So around 22-23 mA/h.

It is logical and reasonable to assume a 1200mA/Hr battery could supply 1200mA for an hour or some lesser current for a proportional amount, but that is not correct as you need to know how the manufacturer rates the battery to know how much current it will provide at what voltage over what period of time.

That's why I guess it's good to measure actual burn-down time. At 75+ hours it finally lost a bar. So the effective drain rate -- on my kitchen counter, at room temp, with no incoming traffic -- seems to be about 20-25 mA/h. So my typical day above would take about 300mA, giving it 6+ days of usage on one battery charge. Pretty impressive.

--David

Current drain (at 7.5V DC)

Tx 6W output -- 1.7A typical

Tx 5W output -- 1.5A typical

Rx Internal SP -- 400mA typical (AF Max.)

Rx External SP -- 200mA typical (AF Max.)

Yes to question and agree with estimate that if you do not use it much the batery should last for a week's trip.

In the specs there should be current draw number for transmitting, receiving with audio at full and standby which means radio is on, but not receiving a signal.

Standby draws least.

Ed Lawson

65 total hours on standby and still showing all the bars.

Here are the specs

Current drain (at 7.5V DC)

Tx 6W output 1.7A typical Tx 5W output 1.5A typical Rx Internal SP 400mA typical (AF Max.) Rx External SP

200mA typical (AF Max.)

They don't show standby draw, but obviously it is under 30mA (at this point -- may go lower). I presume internal SP is the built-in speaker, and external SP is the add-on external speaker/mic.

Assuming 3 minutes/day of transmission, 30 of incoming traffic, mostly for weather reports, 6 hours on standby, I get a drain of about 400A/day, so maybe 5 days usage. But that could go a bit longer depending on the final estimate of standby draw.

-David

I bought the ICom M72 on eBay for $170 -- thanks Ern.

Reasoning -- The incredible 2000 mAh battery is worth the $70 (almost double the 1040 mAh on the WM)...

Report on the used ICom M72 I bought on eBay... I used it on a paddle and it worked fine. It was on for 6 hours during the paddle with a bit of transmitting. Then Thursday evening around 8:00 I turned it on and have left it on since. Now, 44 hours later (total 50 hours), the battery indicator is still showing a full charge. Obviously I have not transmitted, but does it take more juice when there is incoming traffic? Do folks think this is what we can realistically expect on the water?

In any case, the battery on the used unit seems fine, and now I have a backup. But Ern told me that he talked to an ICom technician who said that it is not designed to have the battery removed and replaced very much -- that will degrade the seals. They figure the battery will just stay in place until it fails, years later. So that calls into question the intention to use the second battery to extend life on a longer trip. Sounds like under-engineering to me, and too bad. With judicious use of the on/off knob, it seems like one battery will go for up to a week's expedition, so I could get almost two weeks out of it with the second battery.

I bought the ICom M72 on eBay for $170 -- thanks Ern.

Reasoning -- The incredible 2000 mAh battery is worth the $70 (almost double the 1040 mAh on the WM) -- plus good reports about durability from everyone, except that the volume knob gets crudded with salt. But Lisa told me about Salt Away, which keeps hers in perfect working condition. If the battery is crappy, I'll use the still-good battery from the unit I ruined by not clearing volume knob of salt religiously. If it's a good battery, I'll have two 2000 mAh batteries! Even if the battery is crappy, I'll have a backup that will extend usage by something.

It's covered by the eBay warranty, so it has to work as a radio. If the battery is demonstrably crappy, I may even be able to get a refund from that -- I'll test it right away.

"Sorry, there's no camping on Nantucket. According to Nantucket Online: "In order to protect the Island's fragile environment, camping (including just spending the night on the beach in your sleeping bag) is prohibited and punishable by a fine of up to $200."

http://camping.about.com/od/frequentlyaskedquestions/f/Nantucket-Island.htm

I suspect the Island's fragile environment" refers more to an economic than a natural environment, especially since you can camp there if you're in the Boy Scouts...

http://www.camprichard.org/

And lastly, for those who insist on an M88:

http://www.ebay.com/...9#ht_797wt_1398

BATTERY NOT TESTED OR GUARANTEED

$75 with shipping. Either I use my existing battery, which is in decent shape, or I buy a new one for $90 from WM. I guess the Uniden/WM unit looks better.

Christopher -- I see a 5-inch pair for $4, but nothing under that. I got one of those, and they are probably just as effective for kayaking purposes -- cutting an untensed tow line that threatens to entangle you -- as the usual 7-inch models.

So bottom line, I guess that the price barrier on these items has long since been busted -- I was years out of date and fretting unnecessarily. They are a nice, cheap knife alternative which won't spread peanut butter or slice an apple, but then again, won't slice your jugular either.

Ern -- The ICom M72 is $215 at Defender, and the Uniden MHS75 (roughly the same as the WM VHF85) is $90 there, a $125 difference. But the battery packs are $63 at defender and $40 at Uniden. So I was wrong about that being the price differential. I guess the proper comparison is to carry an extra battery pack with the Uniden/WM, making it $120-130 vs $215.

And you are right about 15 hours of transmit -- a typo or marketing exaggeration (so, Christopher, we can test in receive mode -- that's the crux).

Definitely worth considering the Uniden or WM. I still want a way to mount it on my PFD strap, however. And only time will tell how well these guys hold up under use. If it's $135 for 5 years, that's about $27/year as a "consumable". But if it craps out in the middle of a week-long vacation, it won't be pleasant.

The battery's a 1040mAh Li-ion unit with claims of up to 11hr continuous op. I don't know if a bigger one is available, and wonder if it matters?

The ability to toggle among 1, 2.5 and max 5w transmission helps you control battery life greater than any other factor, as standby use draws minimal current. If the iCom sports a 1.3 or 1.5Ah battery then of course it would have an inherent advantage, but only very significant if transmission power is controllable? The VHF85 is a nice 10 oz too. (Batteries are heavy.)

I looked up the ICom M88 and M72 battery specs -- 1700 mAh and 2000 mAh respectively -- 63% and 92% more than the WM VHS85. That explains my observation that the IComs go for-evah! It matters a lot, IMHO especially on a multi-day trip.

Perhaps everybody could turn on their VHF at home after charging and note when it runs dry. I'd say use the maximum wattage since, IMHO, that's what you'll want to use on the water, and not be constantly fiddling, especially if it's on your strap. I suspect there are no complicated battery drainage issues as there are with cell phones -- it's in their software (which I used to work on). The ambient temperature is probably the only variable, so do it indoors.

The battery size alone probably accounts for most of the price difference, so be clear what you are paying for... and what corner you are cutting by going cheap.

I resolved this years ago in my mind -- it was worth the extra money for the IComs. The catch is, back then they were built like tanks -- now both my IComs have had "issues" and I'm not so sure any more.

I was just about to buy one by mail for $99 plus extra insurance

Also, has anybody used one enough to know if the 11 hour battery life is standby time or talk time?

Just for the record, the ICom M88 lists 15 hour talk time. I know that manufacturers' battery time figures are unreliable, but my experience with ICom units is that the battery never seems to run out if I'm doing minimal talking (which is essentially always the case -- I can't imagine using one hour of talk time on a trip, much less 15!). In fact, I can go several consecutive days on a charge, leave it on the shelf for a month, and the battery indicator still says full (though I do charge it up anyway).

Is the West Marine / Uniden battery anywhere near that good? I think over half the cost of handheld VHFs is in the battery. If the manufacturer's spec is 11 hours standby time, then it probably can't even get through a long paddling day, much less a weekend. Anybody have experience with the VHF85?

BTW, I am having issues with my IComs too, Suz. My old M88 just stopped working, so I got a M72. But the volume knob always stuck, and more recently I forgot to wash it over the winter and it stuck so hard the unit is now useless. But like you, I found my M88 coming back to life. So I have something, but I ain't counting on it for long.

But ohhh... that ICom battery life!

--David

David,

All user reviews were extremely positive except for the charger "clip" (Also note that the WM listing shows the 3yr warranty as +$50. It's NOT...it's FREE. An extra 2 years is +$14, as stated above.)

The charger "holster" uses two sprung levered side clips to secure geometry rather than relying on a friction fit. If they were to break off I don't know if the radio would stay secure in the charger with friction alone.

I don't see it as an issue as the holster/cable uses a separate wallwart, so a replacement is probably inexpensive.

I was just about to buy one by mail for $99 plus extra insurance and then I saw this...

Extend your warranty protection with PLUS Plan!

PLUS Plan One-Year Warranty $18.44 USD

PLUS Plan Two-Year Warranty $23.49 USD

No, thank you

Ern -- you said $14 for two extra years. Is it cheaper in the store?

Also, the specs say 4.56" tall -- I assume that is without the antenna -- correct?

Finally, what kind of mount does it have? I am specifically y looking for a vertical clip sort of deal, since I already have a loop of gorilla tape on my pfd strap that takes a clip quite nicely. (Yes, I keep my radio on my pfd strap -- wanna fight about it? ;-)))

I guess I could go to the Woburn store, but I'm lazy and it might not be in stock. Yes, internet shopping and free shipping has sapped my moral fiber.

Dynamite, Pru!

Ever since my fawncy Sea Snips took a dive, I've been dreading laying out $25+ for a new pair. Now I know why.

I think these guys are buying these or these smaller ones and marking them up 500-1000% (with $0.75 worth of "holster").

Or, now I see something similar here for $13 plus who-knows-what for shipping.

Anyway, I just got a pair of the titanium-bonded ones by Clauss from Amazon for $8 and no shipping (with Amazon Prime), and they claim to be "3 times stronger than plain stainless steel and highly resistant to corrosion." I'll letcha know how they hold up, but truth to tell, my original expensive Sea Snips corroded pretty badly after a season or two, so they may be happier on the bottom. But hey, I can still use the holster.

--David

The West Marine/Uniden VHF85 seems dandy. Charges quickly either 12v or 110v, and I really like the individual top-mounted painted-index volume and squelch pots for when it's tucked vertically into a PFD pocket.

3yr warranty is included in the $99 price...and a 4th and 5th year are added for only +$14. Finally a great deal in a compact, fine radio. Only wish it came with TWO power cords so I could have a charger indoors and in the car....

There's this review from the West Marine site...

The only drawback is the charging cord. The clips that retain the radio in the charger break too easily. When I bought the radio, one clip was broken right out of the box. I exchanged it at the store for another, which was used all last season with no issues. I took the radio out recently to charge it up for the coming season and discovered the charger clips on this one were broken too. Repair has been unsuccessful so far. It looks like I'll have to use tape to hold the charger on.

I don't have a mental image of what's going on here -- can somebody explain. Also, if it can be fixed with tape, then it doesn't seem so bad -- got lotsa tape around the house.

My question with West Marine units is how they hold up. I seem to recall one a couple of years back that was cheap and got good reviews. But then a year later complaints came in that it was cheap in the other sense -- failing prematurely. Of course, this one's got a good warranty, but it's still a nuisance.

--David