Mforti Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Good Morning All, I just moved to the area and have been paddling a couple of sea-worthy SOT (Sit on top) kayaks for the past year and half. I'm ready to make the transition to a proper SINK for this coming spring. I've done my homework and have narrowed my selection down to a few models. I've come across some fantastic used boats within my price range in Poly, Glass, and even Kevlar. These boats meet my volume requirements, (I'm 6', 180-185, 35" waist, size 12 foot and the boat will be used primarily for day/weekend trips) and they're boats that I could 'grow into' as my skills progress. In the back of my mind I'm thinking perhaps I should be more prudent and just focus on getting a poly boat considering how many rescues drills that the boat will be subjected to. I'm envisioning the scenario of doing drills in a composite boat where a T rescue turns into a T-boning. Is a 'beater boat' smart money? It almost seems as though, the more serious I am about the sport (read: more drills), the more this supports the argument for getting a lower-end boat. BTW looking forward to pool sessions when the schedule is set for this winter/spring. Thanks, M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcosloy Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Marc,I see no correlation between frequent rescue practice and wear or abuse to the layup. If you said that you wanted to concentrate on rock play then your conclusion about poly boats being more robust would make some sense. T-rescues do not wear, scuff or damage composite boats. T-boning? What's that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mforti Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 T-bone... a car accident where one car plows into the side of another. I read a bit about 2 and 3 boat rescues Hutchinson's Seakayaking last night and was left with the impression that there was a lot of potential for boat-on-boat contact with many of the rescues - it looked as though some even required it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 As Gene writes above, there may indeed be boat-to-boat contact; but this in no way means there has to be wear and tear. It is <possible>, of course; but (a) it does not (at all) necessarily mean damage to the boat and (gelcoat is, in any case, thoroughly simple to repair!Look at what we call the T-rescue: you (the rescuer) simply lift the (rescued) boat out of the water and place it on your own boat prior to overturning it to empty it of water -- and most likely that will mean the hull of that one ends up on your cockpit combing and your sprayskirt.I wouldn't give this a second thought. Honestly. My own first boat was a P&H Sirius and <I> wondered if it was <too much> boat; but, happily for me, the founder of this club was present in the store that day, many years ago, and he persuaded me to go for it, saying I would grow with the boat -- and this I did! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Allen Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 T-boning can happen, but most commonly in surf where one kayak is suddenly accelerated into the other. Not a worry for general practice. Now playing among the rocks, you'll either want plastic or get good at gel coat repair.Bigger picture, glass (either fiberglass or the more exotic layups) boats are generally lighter than plastic boats. Can make it easier to load/unload from your car. Glass boats can also have a slightly more refined shape than plastic. Some folks notice, some don't.bestPhil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cfolster Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Marc, I see no correlation between frequent rescue practice and wear or abuse to the layup. If you said that you wanted to concentrate on rock play then your conclusion about poly boats being more robust would make some sense. T-rescues do not wear, scuff or damage composite boats. T-boning? What's that? Indeed, Gene is correct. My first (and current) boat is a composite and it has never been damaged by another boat from any activity, other than minor color transfer scuffs - which come out nicely by the way with Mr. Clean Magic Eraser used carefully and sparingly. The only repair I've had to do comes from rocks - but as Pintail wrote, gelcoat repair is quite easy and was a nice feather in my cap when I figured out how to do it from the helpful posts on this site! So think about whether the thrill of playing in rocks is in your future, but most importantly, get your butt into the boats you're considering and test them first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfolster Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Is a 'beater boat' smart money? It almost seems as though, the more serious I am about the sport (read: more drills), the more this supports the argument for getting a lower-end boat. Many in the club have glass "beater" boats and are proud of their scratch and patches. The glass boats are more resilant than you would think. I would say that the more serious you are about the sport (read: more usage), the more this supports the argument for getting a higher-end boat, with the qualification that higher cost does not mean a better boat for you. I don't know about the Kevlar boats but I think that they may be more fragile overall than the glass boats. The real advantage is less weight. I may be wrong about this, so I will let any Kevlar owners chime in. If you have the personal and financial patience to wait, go to one of the pool sessions first and see some of the t-rescuses actually performed. If someone has a boat that you fit into, you may even be invited to try one yourself. You will then be able to decide for yourself how much contact your "new" boat will actually be subject to. Finally, consider all that our boats go through other than t-rescues. Landings and launches tend to be on gravel or rock (there are never enough beautiful sandy beaches!), deck gear (short tows, spare paddles, etc.), and various self rescues tend to beat on the boats more than t-rescues, and the glass seems to hold up well enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 " I've come across some fantastic used boats within my price range in Poly, Glass, and even Kevlar. These boats meet my volume requirements, (I'm 6', 180-185, 35" waist, size 12 foot and the boat will be used primarily for day/weekend trips) and they're boats that I could 'grow into' as my skills progress."M,Perhaps it goes without saying that you do need to paddle each boat you are considering. Your foot size (12) is an important consideration. A fantastic boat needs to fit you like a good pair of shoes. We are similar in our size (13 feet) and some boats would not accommodate my feet.Warren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted November 30, 2012 Share Posted November 30, 2012 Perhaps I am mistaken, but boats known to be tough and boats selected by instructors/guides usually have reinforced foredecks to reduce the chances of damage when doing rescues which, especially when done with loaded boats and/or conditions in which rescues are more often actually needed, do raise the risk of damage to a boat. It is not unheard of for boats to be damaged, sometimes seriously, by contact with other boats and rocks. I agree the risks with routine, flat water rescue practice drills are minimal.Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katherine Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 Hello and welcome!The pool schedule has been posted already and Doug does frequent updates, if I remember correctly the Haverhill sessions (Saturday) are filling up and the Portsmouth (Sunday) sessions are fairly open.And... our Holiday Party is a week from tomorrow! Please come, you can spend the evening talking "kayak" to people and having great food. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted December 1, 2012 Share Posted December 1, 2012 The most common and possibly the best advice is:1. Try a lot of boats. On paddles people will let you play with their bpats at lunch, pool sessions and lake sessions are a great place to.2. The first boat the you purchase will be a good place to spend some time an lean what you do and don't like. Normally this boat will be a transition boat.3. Purchase a good used fiberglass boat, the hold on to their value purchase it for X use it for a couple of seasons to figure things out and sell it to someone for about the same price. Used glass boats tend to hold their value and are basically a free rental (You just paid the previous owner a deposit that you will get back from the next owner). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Mforti: Along with advice given here you may find the following of some value. http://www.kayakacad...ing a sea kayak There are many good boats out there that will serve you well until you find out what you like to do and how you like a boat to work. Then you have a basis to decide on a boat optimized for you and your paddling style/interests. Till then, just paddle the heck out of whatever boat you have and enjoy the voyages you have with it. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scamlin Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 Older post for this reply, but thought I'd address the reference to Hutchinson's Seakayaking.Derek, I think, was referring to some older (and some would argue outdated) rescue techniques which involved pulling fully loaded kayaks up on your deck and tipping them back and forth to empty them of water (X-rescue). See: http://www.kayarchy.co.uk/html/02technique/004deepwaterrescue/002emptyingakayakatsea.htm for an illustration.At that time, you could break the deck in the process. However, the technique was common because many boats did not have bulkheads and, well, other techniques had not been developed or widely practices.These days, most British style kayaks have decks strong enough to support even a loaded boat. More importantly, we rarely place a kayak on the deck during a rescue. Most likely to be damaged in my experience is a spray skirt as it gets pinched between the coaming and the rescued kayak.Derek pioneered this technique (and many others) in the dawn of modern sea kayaking. We can honor his memory and salute his contributions to the sport even if we no longer need to practice some of his ideas.Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted December 28, 2012 Share Posted December 28, 2012 <...honor his memory and salute his contributions to the sport...>Hear hear! I like that, Scott. Cheers, mate, and thank you for everything: RIP! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mforti Posted December 29, 2012 Author Share Posted December 29, 2012 Thank you all for your input. I did end up acquiring a boat. I got a fiberglass P&H Orion. I bought used so I should be able to recoup most if not all of the money if the boat doesn't work out, plus, I'll be able to participate in some pool sessions this winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaruguru Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Bearded,Sorry, but you ARE mistaken in saying that Kevlar is more fragile than glass...or even all-carbon fiber constructions. To greatly simplify, glass is brittle, reasonably stiff and a very cheap material; carbon is strong, light, brittle, and most expensive; Kevlar is compliant, very strong, and also pricey. Kevlar's compliance can make all-Kevlar layups "floppier" unless attention is made to breaking up long panels' resonance. That's why composite Kevlar-Carbon matrices are popular as they combine the stiffness of carbon with the toughness (impact resistance...see "bullet-proof vests!") of Kevlar. All-carbon designs are certainly lightest, as they can be made very thin and remain stiff, but hence are fragile, and best for non-contact events like racing.Hope this helps.Ern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfolster Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 Bearded,Sorry, but you ARE mistaken in saying that Kevlar is more fragile than glass...No apology necessary as I see the error of my ways - I was thinking of Carbon but said Kevlar. Thanks for the clarifications regarding these "exotic" materials.Marc, congrats on the "new" boat and have fun at the pools. We all look forward to seeing you on the water someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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