Sea Ice

[...]

I am seeking knowledge from the cold weather paddlers regarding sea ice. I am a member of a small but hardy clan of cold weather sea kayak campers who are planning two or three camping trips in December on MITA islands in Casco, Muscongus and/or Knubble Bay. We are concerned with the presence of sea ice at the MITA island camp sites. Clearly the ice would hinder our efforts and may be a trip limiting factor. Since safety is of high concern to the clan, we seek any recommendations on safe actions we should consider for both landing and launching when sea ice is present.

Warren

[beckt]

December? I wouldn't worry too much about trips in December. The freezing temperature of salt water is lower than fresh water; ocean temperatures must reach 28.8 degrees F to freeze. Because oceans are so deep, it takes longer to reach the freezing point. The way the winters are going recently even the lakes are still open in December. But you never know but about the weather, but God help us Mainers if it gets THAT cold this early in the winter.

[EEL]

Warren:

I suspect issues like the type of stove fuel and type of paddling clothes (think frozen solid/stiff as a brick) will be far bigger issues than sea ice.

Ed Lawson

[bob budd]

Since you asked about sea ice I thought I'd add the following. One thing that can happen with ice is that broken ice can wash into a put-in and block your return (or departure). Also, you can carry dowels with nails or other means to drag a boat over the ice to spread your weight over a large surface area as breaking through the ice is indeed the greatest peril. As regards comments about cold weather I would also suggest you consider non-cooked foods to remove the stove from your list of risks and items to carry, perhaps including a jet boil or two for hot tea, coffee, soup.

[NateHanson]

You will not find any salt-water ice in Maine in December. Water temps are near 50 that time of year. My experience paddling year-round up here (downeast maine) is that ice is only present on protected bays and rivers, and even then mostly during cold snaps in January and February.

The ocean temperature isn't below the mid-30s in late winter, so ice can only form when water gets isolated in a bay on a calm night, and the air temp gets very cold and freezes the surface of the still water. Then we'll get an inch or so of ice on the surface, and in bays with any tidal current, that ice breaks up and is flushed out to sea with the next tide.

In island camping, you will not likely encounter any snow on the ground in December, but the nights will be cold, so I agree with the above poster, that clothing and appropriate camping gear is probably the biggest concern.

As to meals, personally I'd never camp in winter without hot meals because I find cold food on a cold night demoralizing. And from a safety perspective, I'm never without a stove and thermos during cold-weather or cold-water paddling, even for day trips. You need to be able to warm people up.

[...]

Thank you all for the fine comments and suggestions. Nate, I do agree a thermos full of a hot beverage is a valuable piece of safety equipment when paddling in cold weather. This past weekend a few of us were fine tuning our cold weather paddling and camping skills and saw first hand the value of the hot beverage. I believe it is safe to say, none of us will venture out on the water in December without a hot beverage in our day hatch. I also agree that a JetBoil or equivalent stove does not take up too much space in the hatch and can provide you with a hot breakfast and hot dinner.

In fact the past weekend was full of “Ah Ha” moments when you encounter a valuable skill that is not easily internalized until you live the experience. As a case in point, when cold weather camping I will now seek out an east facing rock ledge for breakfast to enjoy the warming rays of the rising sun. A simple enough concept, but a real treasure to be remembered when you live it!

Warren

[rfolster]

I think Ed has a good point about gear freezing up solid. One consideration is to only camp where fires are allowed, and making firewood sourcing a priority in order to be able to dry out gear and keep warm in general. I think that this might be a good question for Suz and Scott at the cold water clinic. Warren, to you want to keep this thread just on ice or bring all cold-weather camping into it?

As far as ice is concerned, what about shorelines? I would assume that they get coated as soon as the air temp hits the bottom 30s with a wind-chill, and definitely the 20's which I would expect in December, especially overnight. Does anyone have experience traversing over frozen rocks or ice-covered beaches at put-ins and landings?

[Lallen]

Warren, when backcountry skiing, Phil and I have used the Jet Boil with some of Annie Chun's or Simply Asia Noodle Bowls. So great on a cold day for lunch! Hot soup in a thermos would also do the trick. With snow on the ground though, we simply carried the noddle bowls and melted the snow for the jet boil. More of a consideration when carrying stuff in a backpack vs a sea kayak. But nothing like a hot meal to feel like you're really living the life of luxury in the backcountry!

[PeterB]

I have been told that Jetboils don't work so well in cold weather. I haven't tried one in subfreezing temps, they certainly are great for the three-season conditions I've used them : but it might be a good thing to do a test run at home on a very cold night, see what stoves, Jetboils, fuels, heat sources etc. really work and which don't.

yes, soups, stews etc= good winter outdoor food. Easy to prepare. as many or as few calories as you plan for, liquid has more hot surface area warming your innards as it goes down.

Moving a boat around on snow and ice is pretty much as one might expect,: it slides like a toboggan so it can be easy and fun to land and (especially) launch , but you can slip and fall easily. Tether or otherwise be extra vigilant about securing your boat. It can slide on the ice, right back into the water!

[bob budd]

On land ice presents risk mostly for slipping and falling (or a boat sliding into the water). Ice over water is subject to air pockets, etc. There appears to be a consensus you will not encounter ice over water. Testing stoves and tents/bags in similar conditions is also worthwhile.

[...]

Wow! What great ideas! Rob, we can clearly benefit from an open discussion on all aspects of cold weather paddling and camping.

I always found it puzzling that we invest so much time and money in this sport and many paddlers only paddle 6 months or less each year. Suz mentioned to me that perhaps I should continue to get out on the water until I experience temps below 20 degress and wind in excess of 20 kts. With that guideline in mind, I realized I did not have all the skills needed to meet that goal while maintaining both safety and comfort. So, these Nov/Dec camping trips will test our skills and problem solving abilities.

Peter, I certainly depend on my JetBoil and I have not tested its operation in less than 20 degree weather. Hopefully, I will before the year is over. It makes me think about how often I have tested my tow rope and yet my stove could be an even greater piece of safety equipment.

Bob, like many of us I participated in wilderness first aid training and my focus has been more on treating blisters. But with the introduction of ice, I will need to refresh my memory on how to treat a twisted ankle.

Although I do like the feeling of solitude you gain from paddling and camping at this time of year, I do hope more paddlers will seek the knowledge they need to paddle at least 10 months per year.

Warren

[jason]

I have been told that Jetboils don't work so well in cold weather.

Different fuel mixes do better in the cold. This one claims to be a 4 season mix:

http://www.kitterytradingpost.com/product.php/pid/4/sid/60/tid/274/prodid/25565

IMO it's best to practice winter camping in land then once you have it dialed in up the challenge by doing it offshore.

[gyork]

Realistically, very difficult to dry gear and (perhaps) keep warm around a (MITA island) campfire when temps dip into the 20s, the limitation being the source of firewood, though there are some exceptions. If you can add an activity like night paddling to your short day, perhaps it would be worthwhile, though now you've added another risk to the adventure!

Behooves one to pack a pair of those elasticized/rubberized slip-on ice grippers that go by a number of names.

[bob budd]

If you are over water and you break through the ice your ankle can be the least of your worries, especially if you are looking up and having trouble the hole you broke through. Again you are unlikely to encounter that sort of ice. As regards months paddled with a dry suit and proper layers you should consider any and all months, personally if it weren't for long days and swimming I might not paddle in the summer given the crowds and traffic. I find winter second only to the fall and prefer to miss winds at and above 20 kts any time of year.

[EEL]

IMO it's best to practice winter camping in land then once you have it dialed in up the challenge by doing it offshore.

Excellent advice. Critically important advice in my opinion. Cold weather camping is not just camping with more clothes.

My definition of cold weather camping is when the daytime high temperature is 20F or less.

When the temps get around 0F things change, when the temps get around -20F things really change.

I am talking thermometer reading not wind chill.

A few random thoughts. Except in dire, survival situations, if you need a fire for ANY reason while camping you really need to step back and rethink how you do things. Well, I understand the aesthetic, primal thing. I am talking about actually using a fire. Getting warm or drying anything with a fire in cold temperatures is far more iffy than it might seem.

In my opinion the absolute worst weather to camp in is when the temps are from 40 to 25 and it is damp/rain/sleet. Seems kayak camping is going to take place mostly in that environment which means having one's act together is important. Using a cannister stove at sea level in other than modestly cool temperatures is tricky. Cold weather camping is the realm of white gas and kerosene stoves it seems to me.

Ed Lawson

Who dimly remembers camping in the winter

[rfolster]

Some comments from the nut gallery:

Stoves - I have an MRS Whisperlite stove that allows the fuel canister to be inverted for supposed cold weather cooking, which might help if the Jetboil fails, but only if it works as they say it will. Both types will be tested as much as possible. I have gotten into the practice of bringing extra food that does not need water or to be cooked in case of the following: stove/fuel failure, water shortage, severe weather, being stranded/trip extended, assistance to others, etc.

Clothing - Layers!!!! Having the ability to adjust your layers, not only before you start out, but DURING your trip is very important. I took advantage of a campsite evaluation stop to add a sub-layer to improve my comfort level during a cold-wind day. You must have the layers available and be willing to take the time to stop and make the necessary adjustments.

Gear - This has been a recent focus, including 7 different sleeping bags/liners for three people to try out to find the right combinations. There is nothing worse than being cold when trying to sleep.

Location - Jason, you have an interesting suggestion that might be considered as a secondary plan for a given weekend. We have been focusing on islands that are close to the launch to facilitate a quick and easy trip-abort if necessary. Also, the day paddling is becomming much more conservative, with an eye towards protected areas close to civilization.

Weather - As the temperature continues to lower, the wind and moisture factors increase exponentially. A 10kt wind in September is manageable while a 10kt wind in December can be a deal-breaker. A 60% chance of rain in August would be welcomed, but in November may flip a go/no-go decision.

Duration - December is not the time to test out gear and skills on a four-day/three-night trip. One night at most from this point on will be the norm.

Agenda - It may turn out that, at some temperature, it just doesn't make sense to camp. I know that there are some that paddle year round, and that seems risky enough. In that regard, winter camping has it's own set of risks. However, if you prepare, just as you do kayaking, then you should be able to remain safe and maybe even have a little fun. Who knows, maybe WE will become the winter kayak-camping experts. Maybe we will be the experts that say "don't go winter kayak-camping!!", but we would prefer to say "where do you want to go, and can we come along?!"

[kate]

short addition to this conversation: alcohol stove will not fail in cold weather. takes more fuel than in warm weather, but no parts to freeze up. I hear that with a wick it works more efficiently. (I will have to try that one.)

myself, I put away the kayaks and get out the skis in December. Happy camping, Warren and Rob!

k

[...]

More great ideas! Thank you!

Jason, thank you for the idea to try a four season fuel for my JetBoil. Kate, someday soon I plan to test a different stove and I very much like the uncomplicated design you have engineered.

As Rob has noted above, we have worked to create a learning laboratory for ourselves. Our do-it-yourself style of learning allows us to tailor the consumption of knowledge to fit our styles while always working to stay (using Lorrie's words) out of the "Terror Zone". It feels right.

Warren

[Brian Nystrom]

If you want to see what can happen when there's a lot of ice about and the conditions are just right (a rising tide to float the ice that's on the beach combined with an onshore wind), check out my Ice Trip album at: http://community.webshots.com/user/brian_nystrom-reg

The bottom line is that we were blocked by the ice ~1/4 mile from the put-in. Take my word for it - as someone who was dumb enough to try - there is no way you are going to get a kayak through wind-packed sea ice! We ended up paddling downshore about a mile until we found a sheltered cove where we hauled out on someone's yard (the owner was home - and was a kayaker himself - and we asked permission). It was a long trudge in dry suits to get the cars...

[Michael_Crouse]

As others have said ice shouldn't be a problem now as far as everything else.....

The canister stoves work in cold weather, people (including me) have used them on mountains in winter. You might have to put the canister in your jacket to warm it up before using it. If you always use a canister stove and you think a white gas stove is a PITA and you can never prime it correctly so you get 3 foot flames when you try to light it I respectfully suggest that you don't want to experiment with one when your hands might be cold.

Sleeping bag, you'll need a warm one and a good compression sack and/or a bag that compresses well (cough cough, down, cough cough). Yes I know when down gets wet it takes years to dry .

Tent, that all mesh tent that you used all summer is not what you want. You don't need a 4 season mountaineering tent but something will a full fly that will keep out wind and snow is what I have used. Ok I did use a mountaineering tent, but you don't have to use one.

Clothing, as others said, layers and something compressible and warm. Remember you'll already be wearing layers under your drysuit. Don't forget the hat, gloves, and something for your feet. If you have mukluks, and they're dry, they can do double duty.

Years ago I went winter camping with a friend who used a light weight summer bag but he wore down pants, jackets, etc... essentially he wore his sleeping bag so that if nature called he could leave the tent and still be warm. This also meant he was warm and toasty hanging around at the campsite.

The planning (as always) is the most important part. Picking the right weekend and the right people to go with, making sure you all have the same goals and are willing to call it a day if something goes wrong.

Personally I always wanted to do a winter day trip out to one of the harbor islands and cross country ski out there.

[Suz]

Lots to add to this but think it might be best to break it down into separate sections so that the info would be more usable for all.

I have started typing and erased a few times because I have too much to say and not enough time to say it!

Down - do a search on the new down with ' nano technology' - really looks promising for water environments.

Don't rely on one stove and you certainly need hot food 3 + times a day to warm up!

Nights are too long for winter kayak camping in my opinion. Never enough time to dry things out and you have to put on cold/frozen things.

Nalgene bottles filled with hot water help to warm cold feet. Use the water in the morning for your oatmeal....

Bring extra fuel and batteries as the long nights require more of both.

Use a pot parka to help cook faster. http://www.backpackerspantry.com/products/outback-oven.html

Don't plan to do much food prep while you are out. Cold fingers don't chop well. Make your food ahead of time and bring along as is. The cold temps allow for keeping most food cold enough...

Ice on the ocean is mainly an issue where the tidal rivers freeze up and then after the high tide the ice comes out the river towards you or blows into places to prevent you from coming ashore.

[spider]

It's nice to see different folks figuring out the cold weather camping.

I see several things already mentioned (like the eternally long nights) and it's fairly safe to say you won't be wondering where to pack your snowshoes.

About the ice...I do want to mention, that sea ice (or perhaps ice in general) will sag and flex under the weight of a kayak and not necessarily break if you try to plow through it. Even the thinnest stuff you might think "Oh I'll break through that no problem it looks so flimsy"

but it often sags and you can become extremely unstable, much like being half on land and half in the water.

non- ice stuff..

Personally I try to practice everything here at home before heading out for an overnight else where. Though sea water freezes up around 28 degrees, You'll might want to know at what temps do your hands "freeze" up to become numb or useless.

Can you use the zippers on the tent and clothing to allow you to use them with you gloves on, at what temp does the fabric claim it's good for etc...

I used to call it a day at -25 degrees (camping in general) these days + 20 degrees is fine ... I think some of the novelty wore off over the years.

Last "words of wisdom"....never believe the temp rating of your sleeping bag... :->

[...]

More great ideas! Thank you!

Suz, I am definitely going to try the Nalgene bottle filled with hot water in the sleeping bag. It seems my feet do get cold at night, but double wool socks help.

Spider, you are so right about the rating on the sleeping bag. My 15 degree bag did not keep my feet warm in 35 degree weather. Hopefully the socks and the bottle filled with hot water will help and the temperature drops in December.

Suz, you taught me about the value of managing cold hands effectively on the water and during lunch breaks when paddling in cold weather. I have four different pairs of paddlers gloves and three different pairs of land gloves. One pair of the land gloves should go inside the dry suit to stay warm and to be available during lunch. The paddlers gloves are made available via the day hatch so you do not need to put a wet pair back on your hands after lunch. That was my take away from our discussions. Sound AOK?

Warren

[Suz]

What you suggested works. BUT, I am way too cheap to own 4 pairs of gloves!

What I use for gloves is just one on water and a pair of pogies. If I need to warm up my cold wet gloves after a stop, I just pour hot tea in them. I figure it can't hurt the gloves.

Off water I use a thin polypro liner style glove (Mountain Hardwear my current favorite) - store those inside my drysuit always warm and dry for when I need them. Always leave a pair of mittens and hat on the car seat for when I am done paddling and need to warm up to tie the boat on.

Last year prior to the cold water workshop we had numerous 'how to' threads on the message board. This was an effective way to learn from others and the information provided by all was very specific.

Perhaps someone wants to start up a few to get people thinking.

[jason]

More great ideas! Thank you!

Suz, I am definitely going to try the Nalgene bottle filled with hot water in the sleeping bag. It seems my feet do get cold at night, but double wool socks help.

Spider, you are so right about the rating on the sleeping bag. My 15 degree bag did not keep my feet warm in 35 degree weather. Hopefully the socks and the bottle filled with hot water will help and the temperature drops in December.

As of two weekends ago, I have already moved from my 20deg bag to my -20 deg bag. If your warm you can always sleep on the pad with the bag draped on top of you. I find that a warmer bag is the way to go. Once you get off the water your already at a heat deficit. As for gloves on the water I really don't like them, as they tend to restrict the blood flow in the hands and are really cold compared to pogies.

-Jason