Little Splash on the Right and Feathering

[cfolster]

So I have a little splash only on the right when I put the paddle in the water. Does anyone have some thoughts as to why it might only be on one side. I am right handed.

I should add that I don't know anything about feathering the blade and why or how much. So if you'd like to add your two cents about that or direct me toward some good online learning sources that would be great.

A long time ago, when I first started paddling someone told me to feather the blades to 15 degrees right and I've (stupidly) blindly followed this direction until this year. Now I want to develop a better forward stroke and I'm betting it helps if I'm holding the blade properly and it's set correctly . . .

[Doug]

I strongly suggest you take a forward stroke class with Ben Lawry. He also has a video out that would be a great preface to the workshop.

If you opt to join a paddle in the near future, don't be too shy to ask someone there that seems to have it down to help you out. Difficult to learn this in a pool.

Doug

[leong]

So I have a little splash only on the right when I put the paddle in the water. Does anyone have some thoughts as to why it might only be on one side. I am right handed.

I should add that I don't know anything about feathering the blade and why or how much. So if you'd like to add your two cents about that or direct me toward some good online learning sources that would be great.

A long time ago, when I first started paddling someone told me to feather the blades to 15 degrees right and I've (stupidly) blindly followed this direction until this year. Now I want to develop a better forward stroke and I'm betting it helps if I'm holding the blade properly and it's set correctly . . .

Cathy,

I second what Doug said. Also:

Everyone’s body is probably asymmetric to some extent. I have the same problem on the right side that you do. When I paddle slowly and pause before the spear I can eliminate the splash. When I sprint, my right blade splashes much more than my left blade (I can hear it). I don’t have a solution other than just pause before the spear and make sure the blade goes in squarely.

On the feather angle, here’s a good discussion by a real expert (Greg Barton) http://www.epickayaks.com/extras/tips/equipment/feather-angle.

In my opinion a 15-degree feather provides almost no advantage for reducing wind resistance. I use a 52-degree feather (a compromise between the 45-degree and 60-degree index lines on my Epic wing paddle). I’d go to a higher feather angle, but it feels uncomfortable for me and I think I lose some bracing ability on the feathered side. Others may have completely different opinions.

Leon

[cfolster]

Thanks! Ben Lawry will have to wait until next year to fit in the budget, but I'll definitely get the video now to help for the season and I'll take a look at that link.

[spider]

I know that early on I was all about feathering the paddle and bought expensive paddles that I could feather in any direction to most any degree.

My wife was unconvinced about feathering. Funny thing was that after a few years expounding the virtues of using a feathered paddle, I swapped over to her style of paddling without a feathered angle.

So what I wound up with were 2 very expensive paddles that we used unfeathered.

I remember getting tired of the wind always catching the paddle an near taking it out my hands...though I don't remember at what angles the wind grabbed it the most.

So here we are a few years later... thing is we don't even use those paddles any more. The most expensive spares we have kicking around.

So I think the gist of what I'm trying to say is whatever way you do decide to paddle, don't be surprised if a few years later you change your mind..and of course I would recommend not to forget the "fun factor" in paddling.

My thoughts are you do not want to drift over to a situation where you come off the water thinking I did this wrong and I didn't paddle properly etc. etc

Many times a beautiful day on the water is simply that...a beautiful day.

[prudenceb]

John Carmody,kayak teacher to many nspn'ers, recommends NOT feathering the paddle at all - or that's what he told me.

pru

[EEL]

So if you'd like to add your two cents about that or direct me toward some good online learning sources that would be great.

My two cents worth is there are only two complementary ways to learn to paddle and hone your skills/strokes. Working with a first rate coach and spending time messing about in your boat. Everything else may, or may not, provide useful, but abstract information.

Assuming you have the basics down for the forward stroke (I believe this requires good coaching and practice), my generic advice would be to go out on flat water with little wind and just play around to see what the paddle "likes". Seriously. Paddles differ in how they like to move into, out of and through the water. You can force them of course and/or not worry about this or that, but it you play around you can usually find how the combination of your specific body and your paddle works best. Keep in mind we are all different and asymmetrical as a general rule so there are no absolutes here. As Leon mentions, even then things will change depending upon how "hard" you are paddling. Finally, I believe you never "learn" or "master" the forward stroke, rather is is a lifetime pursuit. My experience has been the difference between a paddle stroke that makes a little noise entering the water and a paddle stroke that does so noiselessly can be very subtle. Often it happens on one side or the other and comes and goes over a day's paddling.

Once you get a feel for what the paddle "likes", then just spend as long as you can paddling in a relatively straight course and do not think about what to do or what you are doing. Just absorb the feel of it. With luck you will develop the ability to get into a "zen-like" zone. Thinking about it while doing it is counterproductive to me, but that's just one person's view. I suspect no matter what it will still splash now then so don't obsess over it.

Ed Lawson

[PeterB]

Cathy,

I think that your feather angle and what is right for you, and your splashing right paddle may be separate issues. At any feather angle, planting the blade quietly in the water is always a good thing: a quiet paddle (no splashing, cavitation or air bubbles ) is an efficient paddle , and that should be achievable no matter what your feather angle, since paddlers and coaches all over the hemisphere have done so, at all sorts of paddle angles. So you can just practice getting that blade in the water, quietly and splash- free. Just keep trying, experimenting, and its likely that you'll find a way to plant the blade more quietly.

Now: on to your your feather angle; your current feather angle may or may not be good for you. Here a forward stroke coach like Mr. Lawry could help you out a lot, as others have said. If you are not prepared to change your stroke and/or your feather angle at this time, you can definitely just focus on paddle entry, working with your current stroke and your current feather angle, towards eliminating or minimizing splashing.

[tyson]

John Carmody,kayak teacher to many nspn'ers, recommends NOT feathering the paddle at all - or that's what he told me.

pru

I was going to bring this up, but you beat me to it. Yes, he paddles with no feather and recommends others do the same.

I expect that most people are most comfortable with what ever they have recently paddled the most with. I've always used 60 degrees for a euro blade, but there is no good reason for that other than that was what I was taught when I started.

I'm a bit puzzled about all this wind resistance stuff and maybe someone can enlighten me. Any wind worth talking about it _MUCH_ faster than the paddling speed of any of us (except Leon and Rick with his new V8) and can blow in any direction. So, unless you change your feather with every change in the wind, what does the feather do for us?

I'm putting one more +1 next to sticks because there is no need to debate feather angle and wind doesn't bother them much.

Cheers!

Ty

[bob budd]

Feathering is intended to allow one to have the blade not in the water more or less horizontal so it has a minimal cross section to the wind. The wider the paddle blade and the lighter the paddle the more substantial the effect (of the wind on the blade not in the water). I paddle greenland style, with a paddle that is neither heavy nor carbon fiber light. The blade cross section is less than alot of "high performance" paddles, though substantially larger than your average wing paddle. I have never seen a feathered greenland paddle and I must admit that I never found a need to feather before I saw the light (and switched from spoon to stick).

In general one should not consider feathering or any other option as optimal or otherwse an absolute but rather experiment and choose a method that best suits them. To that end one thing I get from a relatively robust paddle made at home from a 2x4 is an inexpensive tool that takes alot of abuse which best suits me.

[Paul Sylvester]

Thanks! Ben Lawry will have to wait until next year to fit in the budget, but I'll definitely get the video now to help for the season and I'll take a look at that link.

I would check your indexing on your right side (knuckles lined up with the top edge of the blade) and arm extension/ torso rotation to make sure that the paddle enters evenly and at the right spot on both sides.

[leong]

I'm a bit puzzled about all this wind resistance stuff and maybe someone can enlighten me. Any wind worth talking about it _MUCH_ faster than the paddling speed of any of us (except Leon and Rick with his new V8) and can blow in any direction. So, unless you change your feather with every change in the wind, what does the feather do for us?

Cheers!

Ty

Ty,

Not so fast about disregarding wind resistance on an unfeathered blade.

Even with no wind there is non-trivial air drag on a paddle blade. Unless I made a mistake somewhere, the apparent wind drag on a paddle is a lot more than you think. For example, suppose we have the following:

Wind speed = 0

Total paddle length = 2 meters

Blade area = 0.8 square feet(data for an Epic mid-wing paddle)

Kayak speed = 6 mph

At the highest point of the stroke the blade will be moving (with respect to the kayak) at about 7 mph (a little faster than the boat is moving because of slippage). Thus the total speed of the blade would be 13 mph (6 mph for the kayak + 7 mph due to the paddle’s rotational rate). The air drag on a 0.8 square foot surface area (the frontal area of the unfeathered blade) at 13 mph is about 0.186 pounds. This is about 2.7% more drag than the total drag (about 7 pounds on the Epic 18X going at 6 mph according to the John Winters' KAPER model of drag). And, of course, if paddling into a wind the air drag would be much more.

Leon

[cfolster]

Leon, thank you for quantifying what I could feel. It's helpful to see the math behind it.

Even without getting technical - Saturday, when the wind was so strong, I was fighting just to keep my blade in position; the wind kept catching the upper paddle blade. I had this happen from both directions and it was definitely worse with the headwind. After seeing everyone's responses, I'm going to unfeather my blade from the pointless 15 degree right feather and work on a proper forward stroke with an unfeathered blade, but when the wind picks up, I'm definitely going to play around with a 45-60 degree feather.

[Pintail]

Cathy, that recommendation of Dr. Carmody's is all well-and-good; but I am also certain that he would be the first to tell you to go and experiment on your own -- what I am saying is that you should not feel locked into zero feather in calm conditions. However, you already know this...

In 25-30kt of headwind, you <will> want that feather!

[prudenceb]

Cathy, that recommendation of Dr. Carmody's is all well-and-good; but I am also certain that he would be the first to tell you to go and experiment on your own -- what I am saying is that you should not feel locked into zero feather in calm conditions. However, you already know this...

In 25-30kt of headwind, you <will> want that feather!

or a greenland stick...

pru

[jason]

Leon, thank you for quantifying what I could feel. It's helpful to see the math behind it.

Even without getting technical - Saturday, when the wind was so strong, I was fighting just to keep my blade in position; the wind kept catching the upper paddle blade. I had this happen from both directions and it was definitely worse with the headwind. After seeing everyone's responses, I'm going to unfeather my blade from the pointless 15 degree right feather and work on a proper forward stroke with an unfeathered blade, but when the wind picks up, I'm definitely going to play around with a 45-60 degree feather.

The current recommendation from the top coaches these days is a lower feather in the 0-15 degree range. I have moved from a 60 degree feather to 0 a few years ago and my wrists couldn't be happier. But as they say you have to do what feels good to your body.

-Jason

[Deb Millar]

The current recommendation from the top coaches these days is a lower feather in the 0-15 degree range. I have moved from a 60 degree feather to 0 a few years ago and my wrists couldn't be happier. But as they say you have to do what feels good to your body.

-Jason

While I fully agree that feather angle falls into the realm of what works best for your body, I, like Jason, started out at 60 degrees, went down to 10 and am now at 0, this after taking more than a few classes with Mr. Lawry and Mr. Carmody. As for paddling in a stiff breeze: I've never had any difficulty trucking along into a 20k headwind with my blades set at either 10 or 0. Than again, that's me; someone else might find their happy place with some degree of feather.

Deb M

[leong]

Cathy,

In a 25 mph wind, the force on a 0.86 square foot paddle (stationary kayak and paddle held perpendicular to the wind) would be about 2.8 pounds.

Leon

[leong]

or a greenland stick...

pru

Pru dear,

Don't count your chickens so fast. A GP stick has about half the surface area of a Euro paddle. But if you feather the Euro blade sufficiently, it’ll have a smaller surface area than the stick.

I’m not discouraging the use of GP sticks, though. They’re way nicer in many ways. I’m just stuck with wings for racing.

Here’s a good article on the GP stick … I just started to study it.

http://www.me.rochester.edu/courses/ME241/G11%28Final%29.pdf

Leon

[djlewis]

I never understood the wind resistance thing re feathering. There are 360 degrees and the wind can (and will) come from each of them with probability 1/360 -- what x degrees giveth, 180+x degrees taketh away. Well, I guess you could adjust the feather precisely with every change in heading and shift in wind, but somehow I doubt that's what those fancy adjustable feather gadgets are for.

So why feather at all? I've been told that feathering (at some angle or other) optimizes blade and wrist positioning throughout the stroke. I dunno, but I've gone from 60 to 30 degree feather, and to tell the truth, I quickly adjust to any change.

Plus, there is a whole coast -- the left one -- full of non-feathering paddlers. But whaddatheyknow?

The way I handle wrist and RSI issues is in the gym. Years ago I worked up to high reps with small weights of forward and reverse wrist curls, and my wrists AND elbows have thanked me ever since! Sound forward stroke mechanics also help, and I've worked at that pretty hard, thanks to said Mr. Lawry and others.

[leong]

I never understood the wind resistance thing re feathering. There are 360 degrees and the wind can (and will) come from each of them with probability 1/360 -- what x degrees giveth, 180+x degrees taketh away. Well, I guess you could adjust the feather precisely with every change in heading and shift in wind, but somehow I doubt that's what those fancy adjustable feather gadgets are for.

So why feather at all? I've been told that feathering (at some angle or other) optimizes blade and wrist positioning throughout the stroke. I dunno, but I've gone from 60 to 30 degree feather, and to tell the truth, I quickly adjust to any change.

Plus, there is a whole coast -- the left one -- full of non-feathering paddlers. But whaddatheyknow?

The way I handle wrist and RSI issues is in the gym. Years ago I worked up to high reps with small weights of forward and reverse wrist curls, and my wrists AND elbows have thanked me ever since! Sound forward stroke mechanics also help, and I've worked at that pretty hard, thanks to said Mr. Lawry and others.

David,

Perhaps this will help. I think that you should be thinking about apparent wind, and that isn’t symmetric. For example, suppose there is a 25-knot wind coming directly from the north. If you could paddle at 5 knots due north, you will feel an apparent wind of 30 knots from the north (pulling you back). But if you paddle at 5 knots due south, you will feel an apparent wind of 20 knots from the north (pushing you forward). It’s the apparent wind on your paddle that speeds you up or slows you down.

The mechanics for boat speed as a function of wind speed are too complicated to address here. However, I have the book “Fundamentals of Kayak Navigation” by David Burch. Table 5-4 has a graph of paddling speed versus wind speed. For instance, it shows that if you can paddle at 3.5 knots in still air, then with a 20-knot head (tail) wind speed your resultant kayak speed will be 2 knots (4.5 knots). So you lose 1.5 knots going upwind and gain only 1 knot going down wind. That is, what the wind takes it doesn’t exactly give back.

Of course this kind of asymmetry isn’t true for paddling with and against a current in still air. However, round trip time (up and down a river) is not symmetric. Obviously, your round trip time is minimized when the current is 0.

"Plus, there is a whole coast -- the left one -- full of non-feathering paddlers. But whaddatheyknow?

"

Not the racers out there. Racers want to maximize their efficiency even if it's just a little bit.

Respectfully,

Leon

[Paul Sylvester]

Leon, thank you for quantifying what I could feel. It's helpful to see the math behind it.

Even without getting technical - Saturday, when the wind was so strong, I was fighting just to keep my blade in position; the wind kept catching the upper paddle blade. I had this happen from both directions and it was definitely worse with the headwind. After seeing everyone's responses, I'm going to unfeather my blade from the pointless 15 degree right feather and work on a proper forward stroke with an unfeathered blade, but when the wind picks up, I'm definitely going to play around with a 45-60 degree feather.

Pick an angle and stay with it.I like 60 deg...

If you start changing feather angle to wind speed you will swim more.....

You want to know that your bracing and roll is as good as can be and a slice can mean a swim.

[cfolster]

Pick an angle and stay with it.I like 60 deg...

If you start changing feather angle to wind speed you will swim more.....

You want to know that your bracing and roll is as good as can be and a slice can mean a swim.

Yes, definitely going to pick an angle (or lack thereof) and stick with it. I am ashamed to admit, I've never played with it before though. So I'm curious to go out and experiment to see how much of a difference I feel.

[djlewis]

David,

Perhaps this will help. I think that you should be thinking about apparent wind, and that isn’t symmetric. For example, suppose there is a 25-knot wind coming directly from the north. If you could paddle at 5 knots due north, you will feel an apparent wind of 30 knots from the north (pulling you back). But if you paddle at 5 knots due south, you will feel an apparent wind of 20 knots from the north (pushing you forward). It’s the apparent wind on your paddle that speeds you up or slows you down.

You are correct, Dr.G. You win this round of scientific challenge, so we are now even. However, your reasoning is a bit incorrect, and I think it still leads to some questionable conclusions. I'll model it mathematically for the geeks among us -- glad to explain in more detail if non-geeks would like to get in on it.

Let W = wind speed, K = kayak speed over water, P = speed of the dry paddle blade (up in the air) relative to the kayak. You have W = 25 and K = 5. To try this out, set P to something like 12. We are looking for D, average apparent paddle speed against the air -- D for drag, even though it's not really drag in the technical sense. But the higher D is, the higher the actual drag, so it'll do for now. The relevant equations are:

Kayaking into the wind: D = - W - K - P.

The minus signs are because all the air forces are against the paddler. The wind is negative because it is against you. The K term is negative because your boat speed is "against" you as well -- you feel an apparent wind against your face even when paddling in still air. Likewise, the dry blade of the paddle is against you as well, and P is the additional measure of that beyond kayak speed.

Kayaking with the wind: D = W - K - P.

This says the wind is now with you so it's positive, but the kayak and air paddle are still against you, as they always are. Now assuming these two cases are equally likely throughout a trip, we simply average them to get the expected (technical term) paddle drag at any moment:

Expected (average) D = ((- W - K - P) + (W - K - P)) /2 = - (K + P)

Wow, what happened to W -- it's gone, cancelled out! What this says is that, with wind and kayak direction random throughout the day, the effects of wind cancel out on the average. What's left is the fact that the kayak speed (wind in your face in still air) and dry blade (additional wind in its face) both work against you at all times, including in still air and not any more in wind. This makes sense intuitively as well as mathematically.

So, what does feathering do? It reduces P and thereby reduces average "drag". So you are correct, but it has nothing to do with wind -- it's only the effect of kayak and blade in still air that count. So it's a good question how big that P factor really is. But now that we know that wind is not an issue on average, the drag we control by feathering is just from the paddle moving through still air. How much can you get a kayak to move by waving it in the air? Now much, if any. Yes, wind against kayak and paddler's body is a significant factor -- but the surface area of a paddle blade is a lot less than those, maybe 15%. So is paddle drag a factor at all? I doubt it -- under normal circumstances.

But how about abnormal circumstances, like a high wind? Yes, Dr.G., I have assumed all effects are linear, that is, double the wind and it doubles the drag. And yes, that's not always true even as an approximation. At high wind you get significant turbulence around the dry paddle blade, so at some point doubling the wind more than doubles the air paddle drag. Many of have experienced that and it's not pleasant. But how high does the wind have to get before that's a measurable effect? You're the engineer here, Dr.G., so I'll leave it to you. But my intuition says the wind has to be pretty high before anything significant happens there. How much of a sail can your paddle be with winds under, say 15-20 kts -- not much -- try it.

And it the wind's up in the high 20's, 30's or -- heaven forbid -- higher, why are you out on the water? Well, maybe you got caught by unexpected conditions or forgot to check the forecast. Hmmm... that puts you in about the same spot as a traditional Inuit out hunting. -- no electronic forecast and no choice. And guess what -- traditional Inuits carry a storm paddle for the this exact reason! And perhaps we can conclude with the Inuits that only in a storm does air drag on the paddle matter enough to worry about, and only then do we need to switch. Instead, folks seem to recommend feathering at all times for the extremely unusual circumstance of high wind against you (and it might just be with you at that point).

------------------

As for left-coast racers feathering their blades, do we know why they do? Well, you are a racer, and if you feather because of the wind factor, then this analysis shows you are not quite on the mark -- it's typically a minuscule factor among many more important ones. In particular, much more crucial to a racer -- if I may be so bold -- is stroke mechanics, and that, IMHO, is where the feathering matters. And likewise for recreational paddling. So Jason's right -- do what feels good to your body. I think I recall that Ben Lawry recommends feathering at a relatively low angle for just this reason, but he has a very nuanced account of stroke mechanics.

[billvoss]

A GP stick has about half the surface area of a Euro paddle. But if you feather the Euro blade sufficiently, it’ll have a smaller surface area than the stick.

While I can feather my light-carbon-fiber-Euro blade to handle steady wind from a relatively constant bearing, my heavier GP stick practically ignores those unexpected gusts which sometimes catch my Euro. The different paddle weights may contribute to that effect, but the different shapes seem to make a significant difference.

Someday, I need to make myself a GP storm paddle. That seems to be the ultimate choice for fast-shifting-confused winds.