Refining Rescues?

[chetpk]

In looking at pictures of rough water rescues one thing caught my attention today. That is the fact that as the person who is managing the rescue, lays across the deck of the boat belonging to the person in the water, their body weight lying across the front deck can make the stern of the other kayak be lifted quite high out of the water. Thus the person in the water really has a higher distance that they need to muscle their body up and out of the water from to get up and onto their own boats back deck. Am I missing something or is there an added step that would allow the swimmers boat to have their rear deck stay lower in the water making it easier for them to get all of their body up and onto that back deck?

Respectfully,

~Scott

[EEL]

In looking at pictures of rough water rescues one thing caught my attention today.

Scott:

Would provide a link to the pictures to which your are referring?

Hard to comment without seeing the pictures?

Is this the picture?

http://www.pixel8er.net/Other/TUCKS-to-MAGNOLIA-NSKNSPN/20427726_VF3rWC/1616603768_XfqZjmP/1616604827_5dC3fNc#1616629137_M6c8XXd

If so, a few peanut gallery comments.

1. Maybe the camera angle makes it appear the stern is higher than it really is.

2. Maybe the rescuer moving a little more to the stern and/or not putting weight as much weight on the other boat prior to the swimmer getting on the rear deck would help. I do not recall needing to put much weight on the other boat until the swimmer was on the rear deck. Several variables here as in which decklines do the swimmer and rescuer use, what technique does the swimmer use to get onto the back deck, etc. can greatly affect things.

3. Seems to me good, prompt rescues are not about just the skill of the rescuer, but the skills of the swimmer can play a huge role. We should all work on being skilled swimmers. After all, the swimmer is the one who needs to get back in their boat. Failure to be skilled puts others at risk as well.

4. Like nearly everything about paddling, core muscles and torso rotation play a big role in making things easy or hard during resuces. My recollection is having to free one hand and grab the swimmer to pull them onto the deck because they did not have the strength or skill to do so efficiently really compromises things even in mild conditions.

Ed Lawson

[chetpk]

Scott:

Would provide a link to the pictures to which your are referring?

Hard to comment without seeing the pictures?

Is this the picture?

http://www.pixel8er.net/Other/TUCKS-to-MAGNOLIA-NSKNSPN/20427726_VF3rWC/1616603768_XfqZjmP/1616604827_5dC3fNc#1616629137_M6c8XXd

If so, a few peanut gallery comments.

1. Maybe the camera angle makes it appear the stern is higher than it really is.

2. Maybe the rescuer moving a little more to the stern and/or not putting weight as much weight on the other boat prior to the swimmer getting on the rear deck would help. I do not recall needing to put much weight on the other boat until the swimmer was on the rear deck. Several variables here as in which decklines do the swimmer and rescuer use, what technique does the swimmer use to get onto the back deck, etc. can greatly affect things.

3. Seems to me good, prompt rescues are not about just the skill of the rescuer, but the skills of the swimmer can play a huge role. We should all work on being skilled swimmers. After all, the swimmer is the one who needs to get back in their boat. Failure to be skilled puts others at risk as well.

4. Like nearly everything about paddling, core muscles and torso rotation play a big role in making things easy or hard during resuces. My recollection is having to free one hand and grab the swimmer to pull them onto the deck because they did not have the strength or skill to do so efficiently really compromises things even in mild conditions.

Ed Lawson

Yes Ed, that is the photo that first triggered my thoughts, but in doing a basic net search, I've seen some other photos of re-entering from the water where the stern looked high. For the record, this event went pretty quick and I don't recall any issues because of the high stern, but in looking at the photo, it gave me pause as to what might have made the mechanics of the whole event even more efficient and that is when I wondered about doing it in a way in which the stern could be allowed to stay lower in the water.

~Scott

[Brian Nystrom]

What you're forgetting is that the swimmer's boat no longer has his weight in it, so it's going to ride considerably higher in the water, no matter what the rescuer does. Even leaning hard on the swimmers boat, I'll bet the rescuer cannot transfer more than 40 pounds to it.

I also suspect that wave action exaggerates the situation in the photo.

[Doug]

Scott...

No worry, the rescue went just fine. When the full weight of the person being rescued is behind the cockpit, the bow of any boat will rise. The heavier the rescuer, the less so due to counter balance. As mentioned, wave action can cause the bow to bob more especially when facing oncoming waves but that too has the advantage of keeping the rescued boat dry to a point. There are times when it's close to impossible to keep the rescued boat dry which is why we carry a pump.

In this case, the rescue went quickly. No need to dwell on it too much. Your response was quick and deliberate. We can practice again in conditions when the water warms next spring.

Until then, lets stay dry. Not!

Doug

[Phil Allen]

And of course, in lumpy water, what goes up must come down. So as long as the swimmer holds on to the boat, timing the re-entry so that the boat deck is relatively low when scrambling is usually only a matter of a few seconds wait.

And I agree with Doug; your rescue of Glen was safe, quick and efficient.

Phil

[Gcosloy]

Scott,

Looks like a successful rescue-swimmer back in the boat! From the pictures I can't tell if the swimmer swam onto the rear deck or whether the heel-hook method was employed. If the latter than the height of the rear deck is less of an issue. What I've done in the past is to stabilize the swimmers boat by grasping the front of his combing with both hands and placing as much of my weight by leaning over it almost horizontally. As the swimmer attempts to insert his outboard heel into the cockpit I try to assist by twisting his boat outwards lowering his insertion point. As he straightens the leg and begins to torque himself into the boat I simultaneously twist his boat inwards. Hope this helps.

[Pintail]

...and always remember, Scott, that climbing in from <between> the two kayaks is often easier, especially in big conditions. In that instance, you can aid yourself on both your own and the rescuer's boat, initially lying on your back before hooking your feet into your own cockpit. I'm sure you know what I mean? It's in plenty of the textbooks, as an alternative method.

Also -- what goes <up> must come down, meaning that if you are in "conditions", then your boat also comes <down> (lowwer) periodically -- not so?

The best thing would be to get out in big swells deliberately in order to practise!

[EEL]

...and always remember, Scott, that climbing in from <between> the two kayaks is often easier, especially in big conditions.

I have a story about this technique. At a symposium I heard a coach with considerable experience in "consequential water" extoll the virtues of this technique in rough conditions and the next day had a coach with equal credentials say no way would he use it after the problems he had seen arise from its use in rough conditions. Which reinforced my view that only after trying stuff out could I know what worked and what did not for me regardless of the experts.

Ed Lawson

For whom it seemed to work just fine

[chetpk]

Well of course I could always loose some weight as that might lower the other boat's stern a tad when I have to lean on it.

I didn't post this because we had issues with the rescue, we didn't, but it did make me want to put this out there for discussion to see if there were ways to further the efficiency factor considering the fact that being efficient and having all involved expend as little energy as possible carries the most merit in the end.

~Scott

[Pintail]

<Well of course I could always loose some weight as that might lower the other boat's stern a tad when I have to lean on it>

Erm, Scott...wouldn't you need to <gain> weight to make that work? (As I read it, that is)

[chetpk]

<Well of course I could always loose some weight as that might lower the other boat's stern a tad when I have to lean on it>

Erm, Scott...wouldn't you need to <gain> weight to make that work? (As I read it, that is)

Well, unless they have changed the laws of physics, I think that the one leaning onto the the front deck of the kayak being rescued to stabilize it is more likely to raise the stern then sink it. Then us portly paddlers add even more "stabilizing" power to the whole process, me thinks. I have considered this new fad diet of helium though.

[jason]

Well, unless they have changed the laws of physics, I think that the one leaning onto the the front deck of the kayak being rescued to stabilize it is more likely to raise the stern then sink it. Then us portly paddlers add even more "stabilizing" power to the whole process, me thinks. I have considered this new fad diet of helium though.

The stabilizing is just forward of the center of the boat thus you might see the rear of the boat as going up. As son as the person in the water grabs the boat they will have much more leverage to pull the boat the boat down as they are much more astern of the boat than the rescuer is forward of the center. The flotation of the boat and the height of the rear deck will control how high out of the water they will be.

-Jason