More bad kayak legislation

[jason]

http://www.wtpaddlers.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2349

[spuglisi]

Is it me? Or do these "ideas" just keep getting worse?

Thanks for posting this Jason.

[jason]

Is it me? Or do these "ideas" just keep getting worse?

Thanks for posting this Jason.

I can't think of a way to make things worse. This would prevent ladder rescues and won't make rolling any better.

I expect that next year they will attempt to outlaw spray decks and float bags.

-Jason

[rwolson]

Here's a link to the actual, wacky bill - http://www.malegislature.gov/Bills/187/House/H00652

I'm still shaking my head; we elect and pay these people to come up with nutty stuff like this one?

[jason]

Here's a link to the actual, wacky bill - http://www.malegisla...87/House/H00652

I'm still shaking my head; we elect and pay these people to come up with nutty stuff like this one?

The bill text:

Section 1. Notwithstanding any general or special law, rule, or regulation to the contrary, any person who operates a kayak within the navigable waters of the Commonwealth shall have, install, and display a high visibility orange flag on a pole at a height of 6 feet above the waterline.

Section 2. Any kayak operated in navigable waters from sunset to sunrise shall display a revolving yellow stern light that is visible for 360 degrees.

The two sponsors are: Sarah.Peake@mahouse.gov & Cory.Atkins@mahouse.gov. I have e-mailed Sarah and Cory if other people contact them they might get the idea.

-Jason

[bob budd]

I would recommend you also copy your representative if you are a Ma resident. The list of e-mail addresses, etc. can be found at mahouse.gov.

[rwolson]

Yup, sent emails on Saturday to the bill's sponsors and my rep. Also, kept my tone very civil and to the point.

[bazzert]

http://www.wtpaddlers.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2349

Does anyone know what or who sparked this brilliant piece of legislation ? The post refereces a (d) from Provincetown, but I was wondering if there was an "incident". Previous bills seem to have been initiated in response to a single incident.

Barry.

[bazzert]

http://www.wtpaddlers.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2349

Eileen on the WT site has posted some very good logical reasons as to why this bill is incredibly stupid ...

1. The flag will interfere with navigation of the boat, especially in wind.

2. The flag could cause a kayak to capsize.

2. The flag will make it impossible to roll a kayak.

3. The flag may actually trap the capsized kayaker in the kayak.

any others ?

Barry.

[glil]

Eileen on the WT site has posted some very good logical reasons as to why this bill is incredibly stupid ...

1. The flag will interfere with navigation of the boat, especially in wind.

2. The flag could cause a kayak to capsize.

2. The flag will make it impossible to roll a kayak.

3. The flag may actually trap the capsized kayaker in the kayak.

any others ?

Barry.

Yes. As my mother used to say, "It's all fun and games, until someone gets an eye poked out". All jokes aside, the "flagpole" would not only interfere with rescues, but could be quite dangerous if someone was jousted by it.

[jason]

Yes. As my mother used to say, "It's all fun and games, until someone gets an eye poked out". All jokes aside, the "flagpole" would not only interfere with rescues, but could be quite dangerous if someone was jousted by it.

It could be a real problem in the surf too.

[bob budd]

As regards the "nightlight" I mentioned the incumbent night blindness and the fact that maritime regulations already specify fore and aft lights.

[scamlin]

And, the light called for is a "rotating" (Flashing or physically rotating?) YELLOW light. A yellow light could cause confusion. A flashing light is a distress signal; running lights are steady lights.

So this one is redundant, confusing and in conflict with CG regs.

Write your rep: it's how the last one got killed.

Scott

[Pintail]

Why don't these Arschlochs simply ban kayaking altogether, then no one will drown by participating in this obviously-risky and even dangerous business? It beats me!

Oh...and no more crossing the street, folks! Better to get in your Hummer and be safe! Oy!

(Scamlin: I have something of yours...send address? (Again))

[JohnHuth]

Are there exceptions for the BCU 5*?

Well, anyway, I was driving home last night and nearly ran into a guy on a bike. He was riding - without hands, in the middle of the lane, without reflectors, without lights without anything. I had to slam on the brakes and all of the stuff in my car (including my paddle) slammed forward with huge effect.

If they're going to enact legislation like that, they really should consider bicyclists, canoeists, pedestrians, and if I put some thought into it, a few other folks who wander around at night. Racoons? Opossums?

[glil]

It could be a real problem in the surf too.

surf-jousting. It will be a new sport! We all wear pfd's and helmets so it should be safe.

[brambor]

Looks like the sponsors of this bill had one too many drinks at the yacht club.

[Phil Allen]

All joking aside (and bills like this do inspire laughter), I'd speculate that someone (the sponsor?) saw a kayaker doing something in-elegantly ignorant and probably thought it should be illegal as well. So don't forget to continue your outreach and education efforts to those out there paddling down the middle of the channel in front of the yacht club. Politely of course.

Phil

[leong]

Does anyone know what or who sparked this brilliant piece of legislation ? The post refereces a (d) from Provincetown, but I was wondering if there was an "incident". Previous bills seem to have been initiated in response to a single incident.

Barry.

Perhaps here’s the answer: 1. I think the laws in some states already require kayak flags. 2. Powerboat operators have a strong lobby with lots of money. 3. Especially when up on a plane, powerboat (stinkpot) operators are lazy and don’t want to look down at the water in front of them. They place all kayaks (recreational, sea, racing, SUPs, etc.) and paddlers into the same category, namely, road kill. In general, they don’t want to share their “turf” with any small human-powered boats (especially in the open ocean). Like for Scuba divers, powerboaters want visible flags on all kayaks (canoes, rowboats, etc.) that share any water with them.

[bob budd]

My conversation with a state legislator so far. I'd be willing to digest any other suggestions and send them along. Or better yet, start your own conversation.

I have discussed this problem and similar issues at various points over the years with my kayaking colleagues. I have several friends who fish from their kayak. They are respectful of the rights of fisherman and others who make a living in the sea. They do not and never would apply either of the measures found in the bill for their protection as I have mentioned previously. Instead they take responsibility for their actions and are mindful of the sea and their surroundings.

I believe you have given unfair voice to the concerns of commercial fisherman and their version of the facts.

1. When you say "Fishing at night is usually better than daytime fishing" this does not apply to the techniques applied by those who fish from kayaks. Instead these (kayak) fisherman are aware of their surroundings not just for other vessels as mentioned above but for behaviour of birds and other indicators of the locations of where large groups of fish are active. I have had occassion to observe a "feeding frenzy" while kayaking recreationally and to see the "bait fish" driven literally out of the water by the ravenous bluefish below is truly a sight.

2. When you say "many leave the shore at dusk and return well after dark" this is simply untrue. As mentioned above this would negate many of the techniques used to fish from a kayak. I would suggest you try to sit in a kayak from dusk until well after dark, or only part of that time, and you will find it a profoundly uncomfortable experience. It is an unworkable scenario.

3. When you say "kayaks sit low in the water.  This makes them hard to see in the trough of waves, in the glare of the setting sun, and on radar screen" it is instead true that if one is paying appropriate attention forward of their vessel they would have little trouble seeing a kayak. The kayak itself is coloured in contrast to the sea. The vessel, the kayaker, and the kayaker's gear are littered with reflective materials. The kayak is a self-powered craft and as such the kayaker is more or less constantly in motion resulting in some of these reflective materials being in motion. Kayakers also follow maritime regulations regarding for and aft lighting in the dark, when they paddle at these times, and that those lights are sufficiently bright to be seen while not resulting in night blindness of the kayaker. Finally, in seas truly capable of obscuring the view of a kayaker considering all of the above said kayaker would have long since returned to shore for his or her own safety.

4. When you say "they have had to make severe course corrections" I would ask that you consider the length of a kayak to be between 10 and 20 feet and the craft travelling at 2-4 kts. In fact, their course correction would be minor.

5. When you say "I have had reports from many commercial fishermen of near miss collisions" I would suggest you are hearing each of them reporting a single incident, assuming that incident occurred. I know many kayakers who fish and many they know who have fished and the above state measures of avoidance have led to no such incidents. I would ask that you realize that all but the most experienced kayakers are uncomfortable with the idea of losing sight of shore or otherwise travelling in or near the places where commercial fisherman are operating and that the likelihood of such incidents is in fact remote.

As kayakers we assume that operators of power boats are irresponsible, if not boorish, operators of their craft who consider kayaks "speed" bumps. That's not to says the we actually believe this is true, but rather that we employ and construct methods that protect us based upon this assumption. We know that power boaters are predominantly responsible individuals who would not run us over while carrying on a casual conversation but prefer to remain safe from the minority who behave irresponsibly.

I suggest that there is no need to "craft a solution to address this issue". I would further suggest that personal responsibility be a sufficient deterrent to "an accident" occurring.

Feb 27, 2011 04:05:18 PM, sarah.peake@MAhouse.gov wrote:

===========================================

Thank you for your email regarding the kayak safety bill

that I filed this session.  This

bill, like most that are filed is just a starting point for a conversation

about the best way to address a problem. 

Since you have taken the time to express your concerns about the bill, I

would like to ask for your help and ideas about how to most appropriately

address an ever-growing safety problem.

 

Here’s the issue: 

As kayaks have become more popular they are being used in ways and by greater

numbers of people than we might have ever imagined even a decade ago.  One of those ways is as an offshore

fishing vessel.

 

It is now common along the Cape Cod Bay and the Atlantic

beaches on Cape Cod for people to attach a fishing pole or two to the back of a

kayak and paddle a half mile to a mile or more offshore in pursuit of Striped

Bass, Bluefish, and even Tuna. 

Fishing at night is usually better than daytime fishing, so many leave the

shore at dusk and return well after dark.

 

As you know, kayaks sit low in the water.  This makes them hard to see in the

trough of waves, in the glare of the setting sun, and on radar screens.  I have had reports from many commercial

fishermen of near miss collisions. 

They have had to make severe course corrections in order to avoid hitting

the unlit and unmarked kayak.  These

emergency maneuvers pose a risk to the kayaker and the fisherman both. 

 

The near shore waters surrounding Cape Cod are filled with

boats; fishing boats, ferries, sailboats, run-abouts, charter fishing boats,

etc.  As the number of kayakers

increase and paddle in waters where traditionally only larger craft have and

still navigate, it greatly increases the odds for an accident to happen and for

someone to become injured or killed.

 

I ask for your help in crafting a solution to address this

issue.  I don’t think we should

wait for an accident to happen and then rush through a bill in the heat of the

moment.  That’s when bad legislation

can get enacted.

 

I look forward to your response,

 

Sarah

On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 7:34 AM, Bob Budd wrote:

I have been made aware of legislation

relevant to kayakers that is deterimental to their safety.  If

you are interested in discussing bills that promote kayak

safety, I am willing to offer what counsel I have based upon

years of paddling in local waters as well as references and

persons who have had similar or more experience.

Section 1. Notwithstanding any general or special law, rule, or

regulation to the contrary, any person who operates a kayak

within the navigable waters of the Commonwealth shall have,

install, and display a high visibility orange flag on a pole at

a height of 6 feet above the waterline.

This provision is extremely dangerous.  For a kayaker capable of

an "eskimo roll", rendinging the maneuver impossible.  It also

substantially increases the response of the craft to windage and

would "knock down" many boats/boaters in moderate winds as

kayaks have no keel.  In both cases you are substantially

increasing the risk to the kayaker.  As mentioned below if

visiblity of the kayaker is your goal various requirements of

reflective gear/markings would be more productive without

sacrificing the safety of the kayaker.

Section 2. Any kayak operated in navigable waters from sunset to

sunrise shall display a revolving yellow stern light that is

visible for 360 degrees.

This provision substantially reduce

the kayaker's ability to see in the dark as when the yellow

stern light passed to the bow it would render the kayaker

substantially night blind.  Experienced paddlers deploy multiple

means of reflective gear including on the paddle blades and/or

have switches lights or small lights per existing maritime rules

facing the bow and stern that do not cause night blindness.

[Nancy Hill]

My conversation with a state legislator so far.

1. When you say "Fishing at night is usually better than daytime fishing" this does not apply to the techniques applied by those who fish from kayaks.

2. When you say "many leave the shore at dusk and return well after dark" this is simply untrue. As mentioned above this would negate many of the techniques used to fish from a kayak. I would suggest you try to sit in a kayak from dusk until well after dark, or only part of that time, and you will find it a profoundly uncomfortable experience. It is an unworkable scenario.

Bob,

I got the same email as you did after sending her an email opposing her pole and lighting ideas. I do not know where she got her info, but instead of criticizing her for what she believes to be true, it would be more helpful to offer suggestions. Obviously the pole idea is absurd, but she wants ideas and suggestions from people who are more knowledgeable than she is. I know nothing about kayak fishing, so I googled "kayak fishing cape cod" and came up with a website that advertises night fishing by kayak in the dark. http://www.capecodfishingexpeditions.com/

It doesn't take too many idiots fishing from kayaks in the dark without lights to give people a scare. It may not be the problem she makes it out to be in her response, but she and others obviously see it as a safety issue. There may be some good suggestions we in the kayaking community can give her. I am a big advocate of education (learning the rules of the road from the colregs, etc) rather than making silly laws that many people will ignore anyway.

-Nancy

[bob budd]

Lots of people kayak fish and noone is being run down by power boats doing it. I know many of them. I can't offer suggestions on how to solve what isn't a problem. If someone goes out for a long paddle in the dark on their own it doesn't really matter whether they are fishing or not. I won't get into whether or not its a bad idea to paddle alone in the dark. If they are aware of the risks and know how to take care of themselves they are likely to do okay. If they don't there's no amount of legislation that is going to help.

[Brian Nystrom]

I responded to the same letter in a rather different manner:

Sarah,

Thank you for explaining the issues you're trying to address and soliciting ideas. Unfortunately, there is no "magic bullet" to solve them.

I see two parts to this issue, during the daytime.

1. Kayakers are generally well aware of the fact that we're not very visible, especially in water with any "texture" to it. That's why you'll find most kayakers wearing brightly colored clothing and why PFDs typically come in bright, visible colors. Our boats are usually bright colors as well, all of which aids daytime visibility. However, that's not always the case and frankly, some kayakers simply don't take their own safety as seriously as they should. Realistically, there's no way one could turn the Coast Guard or local marine patrols into "fashion police" to try to force people to dress visibly. This has to be the responsibility of the kayakers themselves.

2. Power boaters are simply used to having free run of coastal waters and in my own experience, they simply don't want to deal with the new reality that there are a lot more watercraft of all types out there. Piloting a boat along the MA coast is now a lot more like driving on a highway than it used to be. Like it or not, that's just the way it is and it's likely to become more so in the future. Pleasure boaters need to learn that they cannot just blast along the coast without paying attention to what they're doing; they have to be attentive. They can't let their young kids drive without close supervision or use their boats as floating pubs, either. Commercial fishermen are singularly focused on their on their work, often to the exclusion of what's going on around them. Lobstermen in particular are so erratic in their movements that it's very difficult to avoid them. As a kayaker, I can tell you that there are few things more unnerving than being out in the fog and hearing a lobster boat nearby. Both groups need to learn to be more vigilant, plain and simple. There is no other choice.

As with many problems, the solution here is education of both sides. Kayakers need to understand the difficulties they can pose for other water users and learn how to reduce the likelihood of problem encounters by acting responsibly. Power boaters need to learn to keep their eyes on the water, just like they keep them on the road when they drive. The coasts are busy places, not deserted playgrounds. Education is not a "bolt-on" device and it will take time, effort and probably some money to make this happen. On the kayaking side, supporting education initiative through local clubs and retailers is probably the best bet. On the power boater side, adding more emphasis on other water users to existing boater education programs may be the most effective answer.

At night, it's a different story. You may have noticed that I did not express any opposition to your lighting requirement and the reason is simple, lighting at night just makes sense. Moreover, the Coast Guard already mandates lighting for nighttime boaters, including kayakers. If you familiarize yourself with their regulations, you'll find that they address your concern. Responsible kayakers adhere to the law and often exceed the requirements, as we know that the safety issues we face in daylight are compounded at night. I've been involved in many discussions on this topic, including with the Coast Guard. Again, not everyone does the right thing to protect themselves and make life easier for other boaters. That needs to be addressed through education and law enforcement. I have no qualms with kayakers being stopped and cited for failing to use proper lighting, we have to be responsible.

I hope this provides you with some insight from a kayaker's perspective and some potential solutions. This is not an easy problem to fix, but one thing that definitely won't work is to mandate equipment that will create safety problems during the normal operation of a kayak.

One thing that you may find useful would be to post your concerns and need for suggestions on the message board of the North Shore Paddler's Network (www.nspn.org). If you were to approach kayakers for answers, it would demonstrate your concern for our safety and show that you're interested in listening to us. That would be much better received than simply trying to impose regulation without any input from the community being regulated. You would also receive useful suggestions and I think you'll find that kayakers will be understanding of the issues you're trying to address. After all, it's our lives that are on the line...

Best Regards

Brian

[rwolson]

Good response, Brian.

I too received a response from the rep and I'm planning on responding by in a simular manner.

[Brian Nystrom]

Lots of people kayak fish and noone is being run down by power boats doing it. I know many of them. I can't offer suggestions on how to solve what isn't a problem. If someone goes out for a long paddle in the dark on their own it doesn't really matter whether they are fishing or not. I won't get into whether or not its a bad idea to paddle alone in the dark. If they are aware of the risks and know how to take care of themselves they are likely to do okay. If they don't there's no amount of legislation that is going to help.

Bob, lighting is required for paddling at night and paddlers should obey those requirements for the their own safety's sake. We need to be visible, plain and simple. What one is doing on the water is irrelevant, so there's no point in fixating on fishing.