Fiberglass repair advice needed

[bazzert]

Hi Folks,

I got back from a paddle in NH yesterday to find about a gallon of water in my stern hatch. At home I discovered a couple of soft spots on the keel and dug out the rotten glass. The result is two holes on the keel back behind the skeg box. I cant even (with my long arms!) reach these spots from the inside. How would you go about repairing this ? I have some experience with repairing a simpler hole.

Picture here.

Really appreciate your help,

thanks,

Barry.

[Doug]

Hi Folks,

I got back from a paddle in NH yesterday to find about a gallon of water in my stern hatch. At home I discovered a couple of soft spots on the keel and dug out the rotten glass. The result is two holes on the keel back behind the skeg box. I cant even (with my long arms!) reach these spots from the inside. How would you go about repairing this ? I have some experience with repairing a simpler hole.

Picture here.

Really appreciate your help,

thanks,

Barry.

Ouch! Barry. This would be a good time to put a keel strip on. Lincoln Canoe & Kayak in Freeport ME did the one you see on my boat. You must have followed the wrong person through that rock garden, LOL.

I don't think I can repair my paddle damage from yesterday. $$$

Doug

[bbjorn]

Wow, those are beauts! But didn't we have fun in those rocks!

Maybe this would be the ideal time to add a keel strip. I had mine installed where I bought my Nordkapp, and despite the lousy job they did with the finish, I'm thankful every time I scrape hard over rocks. It provides great peace of mind. You might want to talk to Brad Gwynn about this option.

If I were going to patch it myself, though, I would stuff something solid into the compartment to provide a temporary solid backing on the inside of the holes. Maybe a wooden dowel (to extend your reach) wrapped with dense foam (to conform to the shape of the inside of the hull where the holes are)with a sheet of wax paper between the dowel/foam and the hull (to prevent the epoxy from sticking to this temporary backing). You could then wedge pieces of wood or whatever between all that and the underside of the deck to hold the dowel tightly in place. You would then have a solid surface on the inside of the holes to work against and would not need longer arms. All your work would be done on the outside, where the wear and tear happened in the first place.

Disclaimer: I have never had to patch a boat yet, so this is purely theoretical based on various epoxy repair problems I've faced with antique houses.

Good luck.

Blaine

[bob budd]

When you do fiberglass repair you generally open up the hole to allow for adhesion of the fiberglass. You add generally add layers of reduced size to taper to the surface. If you need to "backfill" try to use something like polyethylene to which little or nothing will stick. Also, consider using packing tape on the outside to get a relatively smooth surface to minimize sanding. I think Brian's site has good instructions for glass repair.

[brambor]

Barry,

I have this two-part marine paste that hardens to 'sandable' blob. If you plugged the hole with it and then sanded it and then added a stripe of fiberglass tape over it and then West System epoxy then you'd be doing good. Sand it and paint over it with white gelcoat (thinned with paint thinner) and sanded again. Something like that.

rb

Wow, those are beauts! But didn't we have fun in those rocks!

Maybe this would be the ideal time to add a keel strip. I had mine installed where I bought my Nordkapp, and despite the lousy job they did with the finish, I'm thankful every time I scrape hard over rocks. It provides great peace of mind. You might want to talk to Brad Gwynn about this option.

If I were going to patch it myself, though, I would stuff something solid into the compartment to provide a temporary solid backing on the inside of the holes. Maybe a wooden dowel (to extend your reach) wrapped with dense foam (to conform to the shape of the inside of the hull where the holes are)with a sheet of wax paper between the dowel/foam and the hull (to prevent the epoxy from sticking to this temporary backing). You could then wedge pieces of wood or whatever between all that and the underside of the deck to hold the dowel tightly in place. You would then have a solid surface on the inside of the holes to work against and would not need longer arms. All your work would be done on the outside, where the wear and tear happened in the first place.

Disclaimer: I have never had to patch a boat yet, so this is purely theoretical based on various epoxy repair problems I've faced with antique houses.

Good luck.

Blaine

[rylevine]

Barry,

I have this two-part marine paste that hardens to 'sandable' blob. If you plugged the hole with it and then sanded it and then added a stripe of fiberglass tape over it and then West System epoxy then you'd be doing good. Sand it and paint over it with white gelcoat (thinned with paint thinner) and sanded again. Something like that.

rb

Hey Barry and Doug,

We have to stop going out is such rough conditions!

Barry,

I did something similar to what Rene is suggesting last summer for somewhat less damage at the same location - minus the paste and gel coat - just the fiberglass tape and epoxy. It's not very pretty but has held up fine. Since you have to bridge larger openings, maybe the paste and Blaine's supporting dowels make sense. It was the first time I did any fiberglass repair, and it went very well.

Bob

[scamlin]

Barry:

Definitely check out Brian's glass repair sequence on his website, besides the basics, he shows several helpful tricks of the trade.

Couple of things I learned watching him do it:

1. Must remove absolutely ALL loose, soft, spongey material: cut, file or sand down to ringing hard glass. No short cuts.

2. You need a good overlap with the surrounding sound glass composite: taper the edge at least 1/2" to 3/4" onto the glass substrate, more if you can.

You've got to get below the gel coat layer and expose at least some glass/resin matrix. This overlap is what gives the repair it's strength, especially if you cannot put a layer or two of glass cloth on the inside. If I couldn't reach inside, I'd want a wider overlap: 1" or more, the kind of overlap you'd want inside if you could do it. If you want a flush final surface, you have to fit the taper, all the layers of cloth and resin, and a couple of coats of gelcoat within the thickness of the hull, so taper accordingly.

3. Given the above, you really want to squeeze out all the resin you can. Remember: resin provides no strength, it just holds the glass in place.

4. Some kind of firm backing helps as it allows you to squeeze out excess resin when applying the glass while still maintaining the contour of the hull. Some ideas:

Brian put one layer of resin saturated cloth on the inside, with a cut down milk jug section as temporary backing held in place by an inflated paddle float. He got a super clean and exact contour in a difficult curve of the hull.

I've done other repairs where a single layer of cloth was stretched taut over the hole from the inside using a brush to draw the edges, then allowed to set before applying the layers from the outside.

If you simply can't reach the inside, you can do a "backing" layer from the outside. Cut a small, piece of glass cloth (your first inner layer) just a bit larger than the hole. Saturate it with resin, then gently apply it from the outside to the bottom rim of your tapered hole and let it harden; it then becomes the "backing" for the rest of the 3-4 layers. The trick is to get enough resin in the cloth to saturate without it sagging, bubbling, folding or wrinkling (not easy). A almost dry small brush works best, tapping and drawing the edge of the cloth over the inner rim of the tapered hole. Be sure the surface of the first layer is low enough to leave room for the rest of the layers AND the gelcoat (better to have the layer sag in a bit than bulge up a bit while hardening). The remaining layers will provide the strength for the repair; this first layer allows enough support for the subsequent layers to be applied and squeeze out the excess resin. The jobs I've done this way are a bit lumpy on the inside but hold. You may have to sand imperfections on this first layer to make room for the remaining layers.

For a keel location, you do have the option of a keel strip approach that avoids the need for any backing. When I repaired a similar soft area on my hull behind the skeg, I sanded down to glass along the bottom of the keel and about 1/8" to 3/16" of gelcoat on either side of the keel, down about 1" to 1-1/2" tapering to the hull (NDK's have enough gel coat to do this :-) ). Then I stretched a couple of layers of heavy cloth over keel from the skeg box stern ward. Same principle as all repairs: start with narrower strip then wider, etc. Because of the location, I was able to fair the gel coat over this 8-10" keel strip into the taper I'd sanded into the hull. The overall width of the keel was definitely wider, but was a clean repair with no visible keel strip. Because it started at the skeg box, it blended in nicely. I ended up with a sort of integrated keel strip that repaired the damage with no backing on the inside behind the skeg box.

5. Make sure the final layer of glass repair is BELOW the finish surface level of the hull: if you don't leave room for the gel coat, you will either have glass showing through or a lump of gel coat.

Good luck.

Scott

[bazzert]

Thanks everyone for the great information. It's funny, Doug posted some pictures on facebook of the paddle and the very first picture is of me dragging my boat on it's keel down the beach ... so I guess I get what I deserve! I think this was a long time in the making. Scott, taking your advice I probed for the remaining soft spots and cut out the section between the two holes so the final hole is about 6 inches long. If I can organize suitable backing I'll tape and glass it in from the outside. If I cant I'll take it to the professionals and probably have a keel strip installed. Thanks again for the info.

Barry.

[Suz]

Thanks everyone for the great information. It's funny, Doug posted some pictures on facebook of the paddle and the very first picture is of me dragging my boat on it's keel down the beach ... so I guess I get what I deserve! I think this was a long time in the making. Scott, taking your advice I probed for the remaining soft spots and cut out the section between the two holes so the final hole is about 6 inches long. If I can organize suitable backing I'll tape and glass it in from the outside. If I cant I'll take it to the professionals and probably have a keel strip installed. Thanks again for the info.

Barry.

Barry,

Based on the spot, I was going to point that out. Glad you recognized it! Much nicer getting earned holes in the boat rather than the lazy holes - holes from dragging.

Hint of the day - if you HAVE to drag your boat (never necessary on a group paddle w/ 10 + boats!!), drag from the cockpit as it spreads out the drag over a larger surface w/o as much pressure in one spot.

Good luck on the repair.

Suz

[EEL]

if you HAVE to drag your boat (never necessary on a group paddle w/ 10 + boats!!

To emphasize Suz's point, I was on a BCU 4* assessment recently and the assessor made a point by rather forcefully telling folks to stop trying to deal with boats by themselves and to help each other get the boats launched quickly and without potential trauma to boats and paddlers. Seemed like sound advice to me.

Ed Lawson

[Michael_Crouse]

Doug you should send that picture to Werner and give them a call, I broke the shaft on my carbon Camano years ago and they replaced the shaft for me. Hopefully they could put a new blade on for you and it will be cheaper than buying a new paddle.

[Phil Allen]

Barry-

Just a "keen sense of the obvious" point, but don't forget that most resins need warmish (warmer than normal January that is) temperatures to harden. Good luck with the repair.

Phil

[brambor]

Barry,

If needed, you can borrow my boat in the meantime.

Rene

Barry-

Just a "keen sense of the obvious" point, but don't forget that most resins need warmish (warmer than normal January that is) temperatures to harden. Good luck with the repair.

Phil

[bazzert]

While NDK probably wont be offering me a job any time soon the repair is going quite well. I have 3 layers of glass down (pic) and will apply a fourth and hopefully final layer before gelcoat. I have been working in the basement which is warm, although I open the bulkhead doors and windows while working to vent the noxious fumes. A power sander with shop vac minimizes the stray dust. The packing tape idea has worked really well to squeeze out the excess resin and to get a smooth (albeit dimpled) surface. Thanks again for the advice and offers of loaner boats!

Barry.

Hi Folks,

I got back from a paddle in NH yesterday to find about a gallon of water in my stern hatch. At home I discovered a couple of soft spots on the keel and dug out the rotten glass. The result is two holes on the keel back behind the skeg box. I cant even (with my long arms!) reach these spots from the inside. How would you go about repairing this ? I have some experience with repairing a simpler hole.

Picture here.

Really appreciate your help,

thanks,

Barry.

[Brian Nystrom]

While NDK probably wont be offering me a job any time soon the repair is going quite well.

Are you kidding, that's better than the original construction!

[bazzert]

Hi Phil,

Turns out my basement was warm enough to cure the resins, but not the gelcoat! I ended up using a small electric space heater to finally cure the first coat of gelcoat. The remaining coats will wait till spring so no giving me a hard time about my repair job in the meantime :-) Googling gelcoat repair turned up some articles suggesting you need 70 degrees to harden gelcoat.

Barry.

Barry-

Just a "keen sense of the obvious" point, but don't forget that most resins need warmish (warmer than normal January that is) temperatures to harden. Good luck with the repair.

Phil

[Brian Nystrom]

Gelcoat will still cure at lower temps, it just take considerably longer. Conversely, a little heat applied to it will accelerate the curing process considerably. You can also add extra hardener in cooler temps to reduce the cure time or use less in hot temps to allow for more working time.

[bazzert]

Thanks Brian,

I'll try the extra hardner. Part of the challenge is that I am mixing such small amounts its hard to get the proportions right.

Barry.

Gelcoat will still cure at lower temps, it just take considerably longer. Conversely, a little heat applied to it will accelerate the curing process considerably. You can also add extra hardener in cooler temps to reduce the cure time or use less in hot temps to allow for more working time.

[traction]

Wow, those are beauts! But didn't we have fun in those rocks!

Maybe this would be the ideal time to add a keel strip. I had mine installed where I bought my Nordkapp, and despite the lousy job they did with the finish, I'm thankful every time I scrape hard over rocks. It provides great peace of mind. You might want to talk to Brad Gwynn about this option.

If I were going to patch it myself, though, I would stuff something solid into the compartment to provide a temporary solid backing on the inside of the holes. Maybe a wooden dowel (to extend your reach) wrapped with dense foam (to conform to the shape of the inside of the hull where the holes are)with a sheet of wax paper between the dowel/foam and the hull (to prevent the epoxy from sticking to this temporary backing). You could then wedge pieces of wood or whatever between all that and the underside of the deck to hold the dowel tightly in place. You would then have a solid surface on the inside of the holes to work against and would not need longer arms. All your work would be done on the outside, where the wear and tear happened in the first place.

Disclaimer: I have never had to patch a boat yet, so this is purely theoretical based on various epoxy repair problems I've faced with antique houses.

Good luck.

Blaine

For the record... I Brad Gwynn did not install the keelstrip on Blanes boat, so the lousy finish he writes of is not mine.

Just to remove any ambiguities...

[bbjorn]

For the record... I Brad Gwynn did not install the keelstrip on Blanes boat, so the lousy finish he writes of is not mine.

Just to remove any ambiguities...

Gee, it didn't occur to me that anyone might jump to that conclusion, so I'm glad you chimed in, Brad. My keel strip was installed by a dealer in RI.