Isle of Shoals Sept 16

[tyson]

I agree with you that a trip to the IOS <may> be undertaken in level 3 conditions (I've had that, myself); but it is level 4 by definition -- trust me.

I agree! I have my trip there last year to prove it to me!

The irony is that had Gene joined us for the SMSKN's July IOS trip this summer, he would have experienced it in L1 "conditions". Any pool with a half dozen kayaks in it probably has more lump and bump than we experienced that day. Is was actually glassy for most of the paddle out and nearly so for the return trip.

Cheers!

Ty

[rylevine]

I'm hoping to hear from Shari and Bob and Leon more about that splendid assisted rescue. I have questions about the second, unintended, pod separation (questions, not criticism), and I think there were some entanglement lessons we could learn from. That's the short list from my point of view. There were plenty of things I did wrong that I'm willing to share.

Lisa,

I'm involved in all the issues in this paragraph. I think we were just beginning to realize that things looked bad, and I remember us trying to organize a formation with me or Leon as sweep, you or Bev (GPS monitors) as points, and Gene, Shari, and Ernie was the middle section. Leon was already in the sweep position and so I moved up and remember telling Ernie to stay with Shari. She was in a new boat which is never easy. I was maybe 50-100 feet behind them, thinking to return to a back position, when I saw Shari bobble on a high wave. I sensed she was going over before she actually did, and started out after her. Then someone yelled that she was in the water, maybe it was me? Anyway, as per Rick C Chebacco lake instructions, I aimed for the bow of her kayak and reached it before Leon. She was at the back of the kayak, and I asked her if she was OK. Ernie was also close by, and since Shari did not have a helmet (none of us did), I had a real concern that she could get hit with his kayak. I was about to ask her assistance in turning her kayak over, when I realized that she was entangled on the end of the kayak. Just as I was about to walk-paddle my kayak around to the back in order to help disentangle her - and present another dangerous bow in the vicinity of her head - she managed to get free. That would have been tricky anyway since her boat was still upside down and I couldnt right it with her attached. Also, I would lose my very stable T and have kayaks in parallel while I went around to the back. Every distraction increased the probability of getting knocked over myself. I may have asked Ernie to help her at this point. It turns out that her spray skirt loop had entangled on the back toggle of her boat. Anyway she was doing OK and I flipped the boat with the two-hand twist; again as I had seen done by Rick. One major concern was paddle management, which has always bothered me in T-rescues. I hate to have my paddle hanging by a deck line off the bow of the kayak. I recently bought a contact tow, with a velcro strap for the express purpose of wrapping both the rescuer's and swimmer's paddles during a rescue. I've even practiced with it in surf rescues with Blaine Bjornstad. The strap was sitting right in front of me, but for some reason I was reluctant to take the time, or more likely just uneasy about not having my paddle free in those conditions. We could have all been tossed at any time, and I just couldn't tie up my paddle. I've thought a lot about not using that strap. Instead I put both Shari's and my paddles under my outside arm and proceeded. She was in a good position where I could see her, and probably hanging onto my boat, as I lifted her kayak across mine and drained it. However, just as I was rotating it back to set up the reentry, a wave hit her kayak and filled it with water again. The very same thing happened to me during one of the practice sessions with Blaine (that I mentioned above) in the surf off Lynch park in Beverly. It is not a very comfortable event because the benefit of the T-rescue, namely the very stable T, is now working against you as a that lever takes the force of the wave. Also, if you lose the grip, the boat could fly into your swimmer. I think the solution is to watch carefully for waves and time the flip over appropriately, but in these conditions that was not easy. In this case I held on and simply repeated the drain from scratch. I put the kayak in the appropriate front-to-back orientation quickly to avoid having that sharp bow free and pointing at me. I definitely committed to her kayak and was telling Shari to put her outside leg over for the roll up onto the back, when Leon came up. I was really grateful he was there and felt that we were better off rafted up. Besides having a more stable platform, I did not really have a good grip on our paddles under my arm, and as I committed to secure Shari's kayak I felt them slip a little. I may have even mentioned that to him. Shari got back in and settled quickly; and we even took a little time to catch our breath before separating.

I'll post my observations on the second pod separation, entanglement and beach landing in separate postings. I would really be interested in people's opinion of how the rescue could have been performed better. I'm hugely relieved that we all got home safe, and believe that it is due to all the participants' basic paddling skills and expertise - which certainly for me is due to NSPN. I think mistakes were made that we are all considering in great detail, but this was not a panicked race for the shoreline. We were looking out for each other.

Bob

[PeterB]

I'm puzzled as to why this trip report was posted here in the “Trip Reports “ forum in the first place.

As far as I can see, this was a private trip, initiated by a strong, veteran paddler who has his own way of doing things, and who doesn’ t subscribe to much of what CAM and NSPN group paddling/club trips are currently all about. Otherwise he would have posted this as an NSPN trip in the “Trips†forum . As it was, he contacted individuals with whom he was comfortable, planned a trip, and events ran their course. I dont see any evidendce of CAM or NSPN paddling principles in this trip , and dont see why it would apply.

Now, one trip member , evidently without consulting the other trip members , has posted this on the NSPN trips forum, where CAM, NSPN group paddling, trip levels and such are being invoked when there's no evidence that those for whom such advice is intended or who might benefit from it, are receptive to it . Consequently, paddlers on this trip would only naturally feel embattled, see this thread as “bloody water where the sharks are feedingâ€, and assume a :â€I was there. You weren’t†posture.

In turn, club members contributing their well intended experience and advice to this thread may only come across as monday morning quarterbacks , and

the CAM program may be seen as deficient as it has not spread to those who clearly are not open to it in the first place.

In CAM workshops earlier this year, virtually every issue which arose on this trip was covered by very good presenters. : how to deal with a slow paddler, group paddling, how to deal with a paddler not up to a trip, trip levels, how to manage incdents, trip planning etc. As far far as I can see, this culture" has been applied on many subsequent trips to good effect. For those paddling outside of this "culture" , i dont really think theres much to share here .

For my part, If I were signed on to this trip I would have presumed that this was not a CAM/ NSPN trip, this was Leon’s trip and tried to do things Leon’s way, and if I were uncomfortable with this I would have elected not to go. If things had gone awry I would not try to attribute it all to CAM, or NSPN or anything else but I would try to to debrief within my group as fully as possible.

However , since I personally would have been uncomfortable doing so , I would have elected not to go on this trip. I would not have felt confident of my own abilities to contribute to this particular group on this particular day. Could I keep my head on a swivel for such long crossings in big seas? . I probably could manage myself, but would I be prepared to manage a long tow, or a complicated incident, or doing my part to keeping a group together, or otherwise turning my full attention to others in need? Do I know enough about weather to be assured that conditions with which I would be comfortable would prevail? To these questions I would answer “no.â€

To be fair, Ernie told me that the trip participants had debriefed together , and that’s a good thing. I would hope that you continue to do so amongst yourselves As it is, I don’t think that this forum will help much.

Ernie you need to think about what is an NSPN trip and what isn’t.

E.G. To announce that a group of paddlers from Montreal are gathering at Popham, and that NSPN is welcome to join them, and ask that the web moderator move to the “trips†section, is unwise in the extreme,.

http://www.nspn.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=7338

Paddlers could then assume that there’s an NSPN trip and travel to this potentially dangerous venue, with no initiator, no planning, and if something goes wrong, its an NSPN trip.

[EEL]

Peter:

As to be expected, your post is reasoned, cogent, wise and sage.

Where did you learn to herd cats so well?

Ed Lawson

[subaruguru]

Tiny points of clarification:

I'm involved in all the issues in this paragraph. I think we were just beginning to realize that things looked bad, and I remember us trying to organize a formation with me or Leon as sweep, you or Bev (GPS monitors) as points, and Gene, Shari, and Ernie was the middle section. Leon was already in the sweep position and so I moved up and remember telling Ernie to stay with Shari. She was in a new boat which is never easy. I was maybe 50-100 feet behind them, thinking to return to a back position, when I saw Shari bobble on a high wave. I sensed she was going over before she actually did, and started out after her. Then someone yelled that she was in the water, maybe it was me?

....No, that was me. Apparently I yelled loudly enough that even Leon back in the sweep position said he heard me when we discussed it Tuesday.

Anyway, as per Rick C Chebacco lake instructions, I aimed for the bow of her kayak and reached it before Leon. She was at the back of the kayak, and I asked her if she was OK. Ernie was also close by,

ERN...............When Shari capsized I yelled, then advanced to her stern, assuring that she had a handle on it and was ok. Since I was in-line with her I PERHAPS should have simply advanced to raft up, but instead failed in trying to turn perpendicular to T-up, both because of the beam waves (she wasn't tossed by a rogue, but simply one of the very frequent (3sec) 4-6 footers), and that my skeg was fully down. By that time Bob was able to advance from enough distance behind so as to approach perpendicularly and form the T. I stayed presenting my bow a Shari's stern because it was unclear that she looked ok there, soon to realize that she was tangled in her strap. Once she disentangled She (and maybe Bob too) asked me to retreat.

...and since Shari did not have a helmet (none of us did), I had a real concern that she could get hit with his kayak. I was about to ask her assistance in turning her kayak over, when I realized that she was entangled on the end of the kayak. Just as I was about to walk-paddle my kayak around to the back in order to help disentangle her - and present another dangerous bow in the vicinity of her head - she managed to get free. That would have been tricky anyway since her boat was still upside down and I couldnt right it with her attached. Also, I would lose my very stable T and have kayaks in parallel while I went around to the back. Every distraction increased the probability of getting knocked over myself. I may have asked Ernie to help her at this point.

ERN....I don't remember hearing anything, but I saw her get disentangled soon after you (Bob) were draining her kayak. That's when she told me she was ok and I should/could retreat so as to not bonk her. Leon had not arrived by this time. I stayed in the vicinity not being sure whether to secure the stern of either boat, or whether to raft up. Assuming (oh boy) the rescue was under control, I looked around to see that Lisa, and Bev were ok. I don't remember seeing the second emptying maneuver nor Leon's arrival, so I can't comment on the second half of the complete rescue, as I was probably still focused on Lisa, and starting to wonder where Gene was....

...... It turns out that her spray skirt loop had entangled on the back toggle of her boat. Anyway she was doing OK and I flipped the boat with the two-hand twist; again as I had seen done by Rick. One major concern was paddle management, which has always bothered me in T-rescues. I hate to have my paddle hanging by a deck line off the bow of the kayak. I recently bought a contact tow, with a velcro strap for the express purpose of wrapping both the rescuer's and swimmer's paddles during a rescue. I've even practiced with it in surf rescues with Blaine Bjornstad. The strap was sitting right in front of me, but for some reason I was reluctant to take the time, or more likely just uneasy about not having my paddle free in those conditions. We could have all been tossed at any time, and I just couldn't tie up my paddle. I've thought a lot about not using that strap. Instead I put both Shari's and my paddles under my outside arm and proceeded. She was in a good position where I could see her, and probably hanging onto my boat, as I lifted her kayak across mine and drained it. However, just as I was rotating it back to set up the reentry, a wave hit her kayak and filled it with water again. The very same thing happened to me during one of the practice sessions with Blaine (that I mentioned above) in the surf off Lynch park in Beverly. It is not a very comfortable event because the benefit of the T-rescue, namely the very stable T, is now working against you as a that lever takes the force of the wave. Also, if you lose the grip, the boat could fly into your swimmer. I think the solution is to watch carefully for waves and time the flip over appropriately, but in these conditions that was not easy. In this case I held on and simply repeated the drain from scratch. I put the kayak in the appropriate front-to-back orientation quickly to avoid having that sharp bow free and pointing at me. I definitely committed to her kayak and was telling Shari to put her outside leg over for the roll up onto the back, when Leon came up. I was really grateful he was there and felt that we were better off rafted up. Besides having a more stable platform, I did not really have a good grip on our paddles under my arm, and as I committed to secure Shari's kayak I felt them slip a little. I may have even mentioned that to him. Shari got back in and settled quickly; and we even took a little time to catch our breath before separating.

I'll post my observations on the second pod separation, entanglement and beach landing in separate postings. I would really be interested in people's opinion of how the rescue could have been performed better.

ERN: I've been told by principals at CRCK that I should've immediately rafted up with Shari because the seas were too rough for a closely-following kayak to advance in only 20-30 feet and TURN to form a T. I'm glad they understood my difficulty implicitly, as it was very frustrating. After rafting, I would presumably work up the length of her kayak to its bow, then try to rotate to form a T. I'm not sure how suvccessful this would've been given the beam hammers. In hindsight because you had enough distance to turn squarely and approach more steadily, FACING the waves into her beam to form the T I can understand an argument where a minimum of 3 in a pod could highly be recommended. But this an aside.

In conversations yesterday with Shari it became clear that she became adrenalized following her rescue, and was able to make very quick headway, with you along her side.

Bev and I had greater difficulty staying at 270 (beam sea), so a gap opened up between us, soon getting large enough to be out of shouting distance.

Somewhere in this I heard Leon on the radio suggesting we turn to the right (north) to make better progress. It was unclear to me how far behind the "trio" was, so Bev and I continued a while longer at 270, which turned slightly to 260, then 240. Eventually you and Shari were no longer in sight (Shari confirmed this from her perspective too), and we finally turned fully north at 0 deg and rode the big waves in, constantly searching for you two, but eventually getting close enough to shore to then focus on landing safely. A beach with only 2 footers presented itself so we landed sans drama, about 3/4 mi north of you.

It is unclear to me how much of the 3/4 mi separation was due to difference in speed or direction, but there's no question that Shari's new Atlantic LV is a quick craft in heavy seas, as confirmed also by the folks at CRCK ("it's a moderately fast boat in flat seas that simply doesn't sloe down in heavy seas"). Bob can more comment as to whether he was working hard to match Shari's speed, or whether he thinks our separation had more to do with a variation of our angles.

Bev probably could shed some light on these aspects, of course, but it certainly seemed like we were making poor progress at c 260 compared with 0 of course.

Hope this helps.

Ern

I'm hugely relieved that we all got home safe, and believe that it is due to all the participants' basic paddling skills and expertise - which certainly for me is due to NSPN. I think mistakes were made that we are all considering in great detail, but this was not a panicked race for the shoreline. We were looking out for each other.

Bob

[rylevine]

...and since Shari did not have a helmet (none of us did), I had a real concern that she could get hit with his kayak. I was about to ask her assistance in turning her kayak over, when I realized that she was entangled on the end of the kayak. Just as I was about to walk-paddle my kayak around to the back in order to help disentangle her - and present another dangerous bow in the vicinity of her head - she managed to get free. That would have been tricky anyway since her boat was still upside down and I couldnt right it with her attached. Also, I would lose my very stable T and have kayaks in parallel while I went around to the back. Every distraction increased the probability of getting knocked over myself. I may have asked Ernie to help her at this point.

Ernie,

Thanks for the clarifications. I appreciate the note on how we got separated, and will put in another post as time permits. About the entanglement, if Shari had not been able to untangle herself we would have had a real problem. If by myself, I couldnt really walk around an upside-down boat in those conditions. You could have come in at that point. Did you or Shari have a knife? I did not, and without a knife I'm not sure I could have been much help from my kayak. This may be a reason to carry knives on these trips - something I've never thought to do since my tow belt has a quick release.

Bob

[tyson]

If by myself, I couldnt really walk around an upside-down boat in those conditions.

I'm not sure how it would work on a wet, round hull, but you may have been able to aggressively lean on Shari's kayak for stability. ...much like rafting up, just harder due to less to hang on to.

Did you or Shari have a knife? I did not, and without a knife I'm not sure I could have been much help from my kayak. This may be a reason to carry knives on these trips - something I've never thought to do since my tow belt has a quick release.

Some will recommend alternatives such a scissors. Entanglement can be deadly and I suspect a non-trivial risk, so I recommend carrying something

Ty

[rick stoehrer]

"This may be a reason to carry knives on these trips - something I've never thought to do since my tow belt has a quick release. "

for clarification - entanglement is THE reason to carry something that can cut line (shears, knife, line cutter) and if you have a tow belt on, then you ought to have a way to cut the line your carrying as you could very well become entangled in that line as easily as you could become entangled in anything else. a QR buckle is on the thing in the first place so that you can remove it BEFORE/IF/WHEN it becomes a hazard and your tangled up in 40 feet of line...the removal of the rig though doesn't make the line disappear and if that's what you're tied up in, then it's a problem.

this has been the conventional wisdom for a very long time; it was covered at the spring cam meeting and was a topic on water for the practical to the cam meeting and i'd daresay every single class where a tow line is presented, used, etc.

[Pintail]

Another small learning point: if impossible to empty a boat due to big conditions, it really may not matter -- get the paddler back into his or her boat and cover as much of the cockpit as feasible, allowing space for insertion of a pump!

The boat floats lower in the water, yes; but it is quite easy, then, to pump it out, whilst keeping it from further flooding.

This thread seems set to go strong for a while...

[brambor]

Another reason to promote Reentry and Roll with a float as one's primary rescue skill.

[rick stoehrer]

Another reason to promote Reentry and Roll with a float as one's primary rescue skill.

i disagree - you primary self rescue skill (after avoidance and bracing) is rolling. if you simply roll and don't come outta your boat you decrease the likelihood of further problems. once you're outta your boat, you've exacerbated the problem. then your solo fall back would be re-enter and roll.

if you're paddling in conditions with people that can't help you, then you're paddling alone. you'd wanna be capable.

while intentions and "plans" are grand, it's what you can and can't do that matter and will define your day when it gets interesting.

[brambor]

I agree on the importance of the roll. However. It is far easier to learn first reentry and roll before one learns to roll and before one's roll becomes 'bombproof'. Maybe I worded it incorrectly...

[alec]

Did someone mention pumping out the boat after the swimmer got in? How was that possible in the conditions?

Do you think it would have helped for the free boats to have attempted a tow to keep you end on to the sea?

Please write up your thoughts on pod size. Some comments here seem to suggest that everyone should keep together more or less regardless. But that cannot always be true - what if there had been 14 of you, or 28..?! If the group has all reasonably strong paddlers there must be some rough number which is the optimium for safety and efficiency. These things shouldn't be prescriptive but your perspective would be helpful.

We have a lot to learn from your trip (at least until we are willing to pop out into a sharp sea of 6 footers to practice our rescues).

[Pintail]

<Did someone mention pumping out the boat after the swimmer got in? How was that possible in <the conditions?

Yes, I did. I suggested (above) that that is often easier than trying to empty a boat in big conditions -- and I stand by the comment. Read all that goes before.

<Do you think it would have helped for the free boats to have attempted a tow to keep you end on <to the sea?

Read all that goes before. I mentioned that too.

<Please write up your thoughts on pod size. Some comments here seem to suggest that everyone <should keep together more or less regardless. But that cannot always be true - what if there had <been 14 of you, or 28..?! If the group has all reasonably strong paddlers there must be some <rough number which is the optimium for safety and efficiency. These things shouldn't be <prescriptive but your perspective would be helpful.

The group was nothing <like> that big. "What if..." -- we could go on for months if you want.

<We have a lot to learn from your trip (at least until we are willing to pop out into a sharp sea of 6 <footers to practice our rescues).

Yes, of course -- and that is exactly what this club and message board are all about.

[EEL]

Did someone mention pumping out the boat after the swimmer got in? How was that possible in the conditions?

Not suggesting these are similar conditions, but I think you it gives you an idea of what things can be like and how easy or not things can be.

Ed Lawson

[rick stoehrer]

I agree on the importance of the roll. However. It is far easier to learn first reentry and roll before one learns to roll and before one's roll becomes 'bombproof'. Maybe I worded it incorrectly...

"bombproof" is a nice word but doesn't pertain to bunkers or rolling a kayak...there are always bigger bombs and bigger waves and personally i don't believe that anything is bombproof.

i think that bombproof as it pertains to a roll would mean you have a very reliable roll in conditions where you are comfortable (and we all define comfort differently) and have thus far had experienced BUT from the sounds of things, the day on hand was beyond the norm for the group and so could be considered a bigger "bomb".

i stand by my first post...the whole thing is a great opportunity for a personal lesson and growth and all it cost anyone was a little bit of a paddling bloody nose...coulda been worse, just understand the stakes. but as is, big whup. move along, keep your friggin' hands up, duck and counter and fight another day.

[brambor]

Looks like we are on the same wavelength here ... with one major distinction, of course, your skill level and years of experience vs my big mouth.

Rene

"bombproof" is a nice word but doesn't pertain to bunkers or rolling a kayak...there are always bigger bombs and bigger waves and personally i don't believe that anything is bombproof.

i think that bombproof as it pertains to a roll would mean you have a very reliable roll in conditions where you are comfortable (and we all define comfort differently) and have thus far had experienced BUT from the sounds of things, the day on hand was beyond the norm for the group and so could be considered a bigger "bomb".

i stand by my first post...the whole thing is a great opportunity for a personal lesson and growth and all it cost anyone was a little bit of a paddling bloody nose...coulda been worse, just understand the stakes. but as is, big whup. move along, keep your friggin' hands up, duck and counter and fight another day.

[jeffcasey]

i disagree - you primary self rescue skill (after avoidance and bracing) is rolling. if you simply roll and don't come outta your boat you decrease the likelihood of further problems. once you're outta your boat, you've exacerbated the problem. then your solo fall back would be re-enter and roll....

Hi Rick - most of us would agree totally, in principle. However (and a big one), is how many really have reliable rolls. I certainly don't have a roll that works more than one time out of 10 in ANY conditions, even after more than 10 years of everybody in the club trying to work with me. Many folks I know who claim a fairly reliable roll somehow usually seem to miss it under conditions (even though they do fine in a swimming pool). I suspect that the number of folks who can safely count on their roll as a primary self-rescue skill in all conditions is embarrasingly low. I urge practice of re-entry skills under ALL conditions, especially bad ones.... I certainly need to have them handy.

In any case, taking a group of this size from NSPN membership (without extremely careful vetting) and assuming that everyone has a bombproof roll is most likely delusional, and leadership should always take that into account.

[alec]

Thanks, I had read your comments. I was more interested in what they had done, but perhaps I wasn't clear.

In conditons where the cockpit re-fills, you are absolutely right, it has to make sense to get in and worry about the water later. However I can't image it is much fun trying to empty even a half full cockpit using a hand pump (which is really a two hand pump!).

Ed's vid was instructive.

[rick stoehrer]

Hi Rick - most of us would agree totally, in principle. However (and a big one), is how many really have reliable rolls. I certainly don't have a roll that works more than one time out of 10 in ANY conditions, even after more than 10 years of everybody in the club trying to work with me. Many folks I know who claim a fairly reliable roll somehow usually seem to miss it under conditions (even though they do fine in a swimming pool). I suspect that the number of folks who can safely count on their roll as a primary self-rescue skill in all conditions is embarrasingly low. I urge practice of re-entry skills under ALL conditions, especially bad ones.... I certainly need to have them handy.

In any case, taking a group of this size from NSPN membership (without extremely careful vetting) and assuming that everyone has a bombproof roll is most likely delusional, and leadership should always take that into account.

hey jeff

we agree...the statement made was something along the lines of "...re-enter and roll should be the primary means of self rescue..." and all i'm saying is that the primary way to self rescue after you aren't able to avoid and/or brace is to roll. i understand that that can be a sketchy proposition sometimes...we're all between swims! if the situation though has gone from bad (crap, i'm upside down) to worse (double crap, i'm in the drink) then by all means, you'd better be comfy with re-enter and roll and then other rescue techniques.

personally, i think it's the "leadership" part where a lot of trips fall apart...once a peer group gets together and there aren't guidelines, there's a lot of room for stuff to happen.

there are huge differences between paddling amongst and with amateurs/peers and paying for a class/trip and paddling with professionals and leadership really oughta be right on near the top of that list. it's just easier for a pro to be a position of leadership - it's assumed by everyone there that that person is "in charge" and that they have requisite skills to tackle anything you're going to see that day, couple days, whatever.

in a peer group though, assumptions are baaaaddd and things ought be talked ought on shore. people can be sensitive to assuming leadership or other assuming leadership. at best i think leadership is dynamic and at worst it's non-existent on peer group trips. a lot of times it just doesn't matter because there's little consequence...and then others' it matter a whole lot and the lack of leadership and coordination of efforts becomes painfully apparent.

[alec]

Good video, thanks.

[rylevine]

Hi Rick - most of us would agree totally, in principle. However (and a big one), is how many really have reliable rolls. I certainly don't have a roll that works more than one time out of 10 in ANY conditions, even after more than 10 years of everybody in the club trying to work with me. Many folks I know who claim a fairly reliable roll somehow usually seem to miss it under conditions (even though they do fine in a swimming pool). I suspect that the number of folks who can safely count on their roll as a primary self-rescue skill in all conditions is embarrasingly low. I urge practice of re-entry skills under ALL conditions, especially bad ones.... I certainly need to have them handy.

In any case, taking a group of this size from NSPN membership (without extremely careful vetting) and assuming that everyone has a bombproof roll is most likely delusional, and leadership should always take that into account.

Jeff,

The following was from the dozens of emails we exchanged after the trip.

During the return, I tried not to think about self rescue options if my roll failed...Cowboy - for me, forget about it, no matter how many times I manage it at Chebacco lake. Paddle float-T - absurd in those conditions. Re-enter and roll - sure, but how to pump the water out and brace? Re-enter and roll with the paddle float - well maybe, but the float might interfere with effective bracing rather than help while pumping. My experience in practice is that if I get tossed again, that paddle float really makes it hard to move the paddle around from under the boat. The self rescue options are dwindling fast. Re-enter and roll, pump a little, and then try to progress with a spray skirt over the water filled kayak? Maybe the answer are foot pumps? Luckily we were at least paired-up, so another boat was around.

Bob

[EEL]

However I can't image it is much fun trying to empty even a half full cockpit using a hand pump (which is really a two hand pump!).

Oh, its no fun at all and much more work and takes much longer than you really want to deal with. You would be surprised how dry the boat can stay once dumped. Still, once things start going downhill the momentum really gets them rolling at a good clip. For example last weekend I was involved in some training and while pumping away the handle came off the rod. Talk about looking stupid bouncing about with a handful of pump parts.

On the other point about group size, when the water gets rough as described on this adventure, I have found it very hard to keep track of folks only twenty or thirty feet away as they just disappear on you.

I like paddling in groups of no more than 6. I can tolerate maybe 12 on calm water if they all try to stay within comfortable shouting distance. My personal view is if you cannot paddle and chat, you are too far apart.

BTW, not my video. I just found it.

Ed Lawson

[Duke]

Wow! What a ridiculous thread and discussion, I'm new here... If you don't have a combat roll you simply don't paddle to Isle of Schoals, especially if water is rough. It's not like friendly chit-chat rolling session at Walden Pond. Sorry guys...

Cheers everyone,

Paddle safely

[rylevine]

Wow! What a ridiculous thread and discussion, I'm new here... If you don't have a combat roll you simply don't paddle to Isle of Schoals, especially if water is rough. It's not like friendly chit-chat rolling session at Walden Pond. Sorry guys...

Cheers everyone,

Paddle safely

I've fired a roll or two in anger - but that does not mean it cannot fail. Are you saying that one should not consider backups?

Bob