Isle of Shoals Sept 16

[tyson]

If you really think that 7 experienced NSPN paddlers had trouble handling 3 foot swell, ...

I don't think that at all. There is a BIG difference between 3 foot (or even 8 foot) deep water swells with a 10-20 second period and 3-4 second wind driven chop that is anywhere above your head.

I have been in conditions where I was relaxed, comfortable and having fun while some of our experienced NSPN paddlers sat on the side lines because it was beyond their comfort level.

I have done a 'Shoals trip were conditions turned for the worse on the return leg. The objective data logs show that the conditions were a fair bit worse than this past Thursday.

I have made a practice of noting my reaction to wave heights and then comparing that with buoy data, the height of people around me, the height of surfers and what the same waves look like when standing on firm ground.

People who are in difficult conditions are often very poor witnesses to what happened. On the other hand, buoys don't tell the whole story (superposition of multiple wave sets) and they don't tell you what its like to be in those conditions. ...not until you have made a practice of objectively comparing the experience with the data.

Ty

[tyson]

I don't really know whether it was really an 8-footer. But I sat on the floor yesterday looking at the wall to my left (at about the same distance away from where I saw Gene on top of the wave) trying to picture the wave height. Not very scientific I know, but from where I imagined the wave was on the wall, 8 feet seemed in the ballpark. If I had to bet my life on the minimal height I'd say 6 feet (but I'm risk adverse with my life, I think it was closer to 8 feet).

Excellent exercise!

P.S. You can do a lot of thinking in a few seconds while waiting to be dumped by a wave about 5-miles from shore. I haven't practiced a roll with the Seda Impulse (that I was paddling on that trip) since buying the Epic earlier in the year. I feared that my roll wouldn't work! (The Impulse is hard to roll, even in Walden Pond conditions, especially with a wing paddle. Back of the cockpit is too high for a layback).

That's why I strongly prefer kayaks with low rear decks. Windage is one of the reasons I prefer lower decks overall. ...and I'm learning forward finishing rolls.

[EEL]

We who were there will thrash it out in private and will learn from it.

Having raised a variety of issues candidly in his report which directly relate to appropriate steps individually and collectively for successful group paddles and, as I recall, raising the question of adequate training/knowledge/skills; for others to point out relevant matters that are addressed in the training NSPN and others provide in an effort to get everyone to think about them is not confrontational or disparaging. Its not like each of us has not gotten way over our heads from time to time and been thankful to step onto land so throwing stones is stupid. Not critically thinking about the issues raised and confronting unpleasant facts is as well.

Ed Lawson

[Pintail]

Regarding rescues in conditions: if the rescued person is finding difficulty in getting back into his or her boat (from the "outside" position), then perhaps it is better to try from <between> the two boats, lying dorsally. In addition, if the two boats (assuming that they are not rafted to a third, for argument's sake) are thumping up-and-down beside each other at a rate making re-entry tough, then there would be an advantage in a third boat attaching a tow-line and keeping the boats aligned into wind and wave.

This sounds to have been an exciting and interesting trip...hopefully much has been learned. The forecasters do not <always> get it right; but that is why we study the weather for ourselves, isn't it?

I do not like the sound of breaking up a small paddling group -- <especially> in tough conditions; but that is a personal preference and is not a judgement. If someone has been slower than others, my paddling partners/friends have always stayed together.

As someone wrote above, you always have the option of returning whence you came!

Happy that all returned safely.

[brambor]

Looks to me like Leon coming in and assisting Bob in the rescue was the right and best call at the time. Considering the big waves and the possibilities of being dumped ... - Leon's decision to raft up added stability to Bob's operation.

[prudenceb]

As a newcomer to nspn, and wanting to learn as much as I can from the clearly very experienced paddlers in the network, I just want to say that I have appreciated reading all of the posts regarding this difficult trip. As others have said, I'm glad everyone made it back OK. It seems pretty certain that the wide dissemination of information about this "private" trip will end up helping everyone - both those who come up with plans and those such as myself who sign up to participate. I know that I will be more careful about realistically assessing my abilities and comfort level on trips that get us farther away from shore.

So I would particularly like to thank the trip participants, who've opened up the dynamics of a difficult day for all of us to learn from.

pru

[tyson]

So I would particularly like to thank the trip participants, who've opened up the dynamics of a difficult day for all of us to learn from.

[Suz]

Tow Belts???

Who in the group had them?

Where were they?

Why weren't they put to good use?

Seems the fast paddlers could have used them to keep the slower paddlers with them. There was no need for the group to separate. Groups separate when it becomes "every man for them self". NOT when it is just a joy paddle.

The "what if's" are not to be reviewed at each and every beach briefing. How could that be done and ever expect to get on the water?

[bazzert]

. I don't believe this is a full list, but hits, perhaps, a few points.

I'd hate to see the "full list"

[leong]

Tow Belts???

Who in the group had them?

Where were they?

Why weren't they put to good use?

Seems the fast paddlers could have used them to keep the slower paddlers with them. There was no need for the group to separate. Groups separate when it becomes "every man for them self". NOT when it is just a joy paddle.

The "what if's" are not to be reviewed at each and every beach briefing. How could that be done and ever expect to get on the water?

Dear Suz,

Come on, Suz, you surprise me! Don’t you know that Leon would always have his tow belt on a trip that far out? Before you probably even took up sea kayaking, I had already towed Derek Hutchinson, Bob Burnett (the founder of this club) and four or five others (that came along for the ride) for over a mile against the tide in the Charles River. That tow was after a race that I had only placed second and needed to get the loss out of my system. Ask Bob Burnett, if you don’t believe me. But he’ll probably exaggerate and say it was a dozen boats or something silly like that. Of course, I’m in better shape now so I probably could tow more than I did back then in 1999 (I know the date because I still have Derek’s dated note to me in the inside cover of “The Complete Book of Sea Kayakingâ€, by Derek H.

I know for sure that there was at least one other tow belt on the trip. I went over this at the beach briefing before we left. The tow belt was shown to me … right now, I don’t remember if there were others.

The tow belts were put to the best use that, under the circumstances, they could have been put to. They stayed in their respective holders. In the conditions we were in you’d have to be a complete idiot to tow anyone that was able to paddle. Almost certainly, a tow would have caused a capsize; especially when the towed boat got jerked around as it surfed down a wave. Remember, Suz, I was there … you weren’t!

By the way I think you might remember saying something this to me in writing on 9/22/08 so I’ll paste it here for you to see:

“Leon,

I don’t have enough time in the day to sort through this.

All I know is that I returned with the people I launched with and that is good enough for me.

Suzanneâ€

Boy, that sure is appropriate for our trip isn’t it.

By the way, I have a lot of experience towing people that can’t keep up. But I only do it in very mild conditions. For instance, on a very calm day last year, I towed Karen G almost all the way around Cape Ann. Even though she was paddling well and able to brace, the jerkiness of the tow sometime made her uncomfortable. Feel free to ask her about it.

About your other comments and questions: Like you said to me, “I don’t have enough time in the day to sort through thisâ€.

And I’m not mad at you dear. You’re one fine sea kayaker. I wish you were on the trip to help us out as necessary.

Leon

[djlewis]

I'm still wondering what the wind and swell forecasts were for the day. I don't think it's been mentioned yet in this thread (except in my earlier question, still unanswered).

And I don't mean the standard NOAA forecast from "Cape Elizabeth Me To Merrimack River Ma Out To 25 Nm". I mean the detailed forecast for the specific area and time (to within 2-3 hours). This was not a multi-day expedition requiring 5-star weather and condition forecasting skills. It was a day trip, with lots of relevant, timely information available prior to launch.

The best safety measure is ~not starting out~ when the forecast is dicey. The second best is being prepared for it. In either case, you gotta know what that forecast is.

Did anybody? If they did and it was wrong, c'est la vie. But if nobody even looked and conveyed it to the group...

[EEL]

I'm still wondering what the wind and swell forecasts were for the day.

The AM forecast issuance (issued around 3AM) for 9-16-2010 for Cape Eliz. to Merrimack River and 25NM offshore was for S winds 5-15Kts and seas of 2-4 feet. The PM issuance included a Small Craft Advisory starting at 8PM that night.

I know this is not the detailed forecast info you are looking for, but it is entirely consistent with the reported conditions by the trip participants and if anything forecasts higher seas and to some extent higher winds than reported at the buoys over a relatively large area. So the forecast appears to have been quite accurate.

In my opinion, as a timid woodland creature, that is not a forecast for mild weather or an easy day paddling a few miles offshore. If paddling within a hundred yards off the coast, as we most often do, then it would be fair to assume a mild day overall based on that forecast.

If the forecast says 2-4 foot seas it means the significant wave height will be in that range and in turn that means you should expect to encounter more than a few waves in the six foot range with the potential for rare eight foot waves.

In my limited experience a 15 kt wind over a long fetch blowing for several hours will build a "interesting" sea of around 4 feet that has the combined hallmarks of the swells with some energy with sets and shorter/steeper early wind waves. That appears to be what would have happened that day given the forecast. To me it is a realm for decent intermediate paddlers ( as opposed to the universal and vague label of "experienced paddler"). Personally, I consider the skills listed in the NSPN guidelines for Level 4 to be the minimums for a decent intermediate paddler and Level 4 conditions would be comfortable for them.

Ed Lawson

[djlewis]

The AM forecast issuance (issued around 3AM) for 9-16-2010 for Cape Eliz. to Merrimack River and 25NM offshore was for S winds 5-15Kts and seas of 2-4 feet. The PM issuance included a Small Craft Advisory starting at 8PM that night.

I know this is not the detailed forecast info you are looking for, but it is entirely consistent with the reported conditions by the trip participants and if anything forecasts higher seas and to some extent higher winds than reported at the buoys over a relatively large area. So the forecast appears to have been quite accurate.

Ed Lawson

Right, it does appear accurate. Plus, if there's a small craft advisory for 8:00 PM, then unless it's a storm line or similar discrete event, conditions don't just pop up from nowhere -- they build, for at least a couple of hours. And more, if that time is off by another hour or two, it could well mean tough conditions several hours in advance of the official time when the advisory begins.

So again, did anybody on this trip (1) know the forecast; (2) forsee the possibility of tough conditions later in the paddle; (3) attempt to convey that information to the group at launch?

--David

[tyson]

So again, did anybody on this trip (1) know the forecast; (2) forsee the possibility of tough conditions later in the paddle; (3) attempt to convey that information to the group at launch?

In spite of what some may think, I don't see this as a witch hunt. therefore, I don't think it is important if they did this or not.

The useful question is, has anyone reading this thread come to the realization that this sort of preparation is what's needed? That a forecast or conditions report that reads like this indicates some rather difficult paddling?

Some people will be comfortable in these conditions.

Some people will be in over their heads in these conditions.

Some might be fine if they get some help and shepherding from a more skilled paddler.

When I had a similar experience last year, I was lucky that everyone on the trip was up to the task. Though no one felt out of control, it really got my attention that with different companions or somewhat worse conditions, it could have been a disaster. Though I felt no stress or panic, I did get a glimpse of where stress and panic hide out waiting to pounce.

Ty

[Suz]

Dear Suz,

Come on, Suz, you surprise me! Don’t you know that Leon would always have his tow belt on a trip that far out? Before you probably even took up sea kayaking, I had already towed Derek Hutchinson, Bob Burnett (the founder of this club) and four or five others (that came along for the ride) for over a mile against the tide in the Charles River. That tow was after a race that I had only placed second and needed to get the loss out of my system. Ask Bob Burnett, if you don’t believe me. But he’ll probably exaggerate and say it was a dozen boats or something silly like that. Of course, I’m in better shape now so I probably could tow more than I did back then in 1999 (I know the date because I still have Derek’s dated note to me in the inside cover of “The Complete Book of Sea Kayakingâ€, by Derek H.

I know for sure that there was at least one other tow belt on the trip. I went over this at the beach briefing before we left. The tow belt was shown to me … right now, I don’t remember if there were others.

The tow belts were put to the best use that, under the circumstances, they could have been put to. They stayed in their respective holders. In the conditions we were in you’d have to be a complete idiot to tow anyone that was able to paddle. Almost certainly, a tow would have caused a capsize; especially when the towed boat got jerked around as it surfed down a wave. Remember, Suz, I was there … you weren’t!

By the way I think you might remember saying something this to me in writing on 9/22/08 so I’ll paste it here for you to see:

“Leon,

I don’t have enough time in the day to sort through this.

All I know is that I returned with the people I launched with and that is good enough for me.

Suzanneâ€

Boy, that sure is appropriate for our trip isn’t it.

By the way, I have a lot of experience towing people that can’t keep up. But I only do it in very mild conditions. For instance, on a very calm day last year, I towed Karen G almost all the way around Cape Ann. Even though she was paddling well and able to brace, the jerkiness of the tow sometime made her uncomfortable. Feel free to ask her about it.

About your other comments and questions: Like you said to me, “I don’t have enough time in the day to sort through thisâ€.

And I’m not mad at you dear. You’re one fine sea kayaker. I wish you were on the trip to help us out as necessary.

Leon

In actual fact, it seems that the group all arrived back which is what is allowing for the discussion. BUT in point of fact, the group did NOT return with the people that launched UNLESS I misunderstood. I believe that three groups landed separately in separate locations at separate times.

On towing...

In the conditions you stated, competent paddlers should have been able to tow the slower paddlers (with them paddling). This would have kept the group together.

Practice towing in swell, practice being towed in swell. Understand how to back paddle to prevent surfing down on the tower. Practice in the conditions that you may end up needing to use a technique in. Practicing in calm conditions does not prepare you for paddling in conditions.

If the paddlers were unable to remain together in the conditions that they were in, then they were paddling in conditions that were beyond their abilities. I have also ended up in conditions that were beyond my abilities. When I rehashed those episodes after, either publicly or with the private paddling group, I used the opportunity to learn from the situations.

Ed put together a real nice list of things to think about:

1. How many CAM or trip leadership training sessions have you attended?

2. Have you taken classes which are similar to the new BCU 3* or 4* trainings classes?

3. If you have done either of the above, in what ways did the your and the group's actions follow or deviate from what was taught in the above classes?

4. If your or the group's actions deviated why?

5. What steps do you plan to take to avoid having a similar experience?

6. How easy was it to maintain visual and aural contact with the other paddlers?

7. Did you have a tow belt? Were you wearing it? Have you towed anyone is 3' seas for any distance? Have you been towed for any distance in 3' seas.

8. Did you have or did someone provide you with a time management plan and/or "go/no go" points/events for the day's trip?

9. Did you plot anticipated courses before hand and have a chart with tide and information needed for day's trip written down. Did you determine or were you told what headings to use during the trip?

10. Did you listen to the marine and land forecasts before launching? Were they monitored during the day?

11. Did you check buoy information before launching?

12 Was a float plan left with anyone?

13. Did you have adequate gear to stay overnight on the Shoals if necessary?

14. Where you able to adequately provide yourself with needed food and water during the trip? If not, why not?

15. What would you describe as an adequate nutrition and hydration efforts during the trip?

16. Did you consider and did the group discuss how it should proceed in light of the incident early in the return leg?

17. Have you practiced a rescue in 2' seas? Have you practiced being rescued in 2' seas?

18. Have you practiced rolling in 2' seas? What percentage of the time do you successfully roll when knocked over unexpectedly while on a paddle?

19. Have you practiced cowboy re-entries and re-entries and rolls in 2' seas?

20. What did you carry on/in your PFD on this trip and why?

Not needed for all to answer it but it gives food for thought.

None of this is said to point fingers. It is written in an effort to get readers to think about the situations that they read about so that they can learn from the mistakes made.

If participants who were on the trip don't think that mistakes were made and that the situation could not have been handled differently, then I don't think that the trip report would have ever made it to a place that anyone would have ever read about.

[subaruguru]

Point well taken and I apologize if that is how it is perceived. Perhaps an occupational hazard.

Intent was to highlight the various steps in the decision making process from evaluating if personal skills suitable for the trip, to equipment selected, to planning/monitoring for the proposed trip, to what tools are good to have when sorting out a difficult situation. More a shopping list for folks to think about as opposed to questions I suppose.

Ed Lawson

Hi Ed,

I think we understand your intent, and would like to suggest that you forward such a query list to the CAM Committee for inclusion in next year's workshops. Perhaps you'd be interested in volunteering to lead a practicum re such? It's hoped that these workshops will be held earlier next year now that the framework is established.

Tyson,

I KNOW you and Emilie didn't mean to swipe at us with the buoy stuff, and I was a bit bothered by your defensive "censorship" response following Shari and my pushbacks. My suggestion was simply that technical discussion of the apparently poor correlation between buoy data and local conditions merits its own thread, as it was obviously too easy to misinterpret your intentions given our tender climate right now.

Obviously learning how to interpret buoy data and its proper correlations to paddling realities would be useful in our workshops next year.

[subaruguru]

David,

Leon et al will add more info, but I remember checking the hourly forecast data for Rye Harbor the night before, seeing WNW winds at 4-7knots, 10% chance precip, throughout the morning and continuing through mid-afternoon, eventually turning to SW winds strengthening to 10-12knots only AFTER 5pm, with chance of precip increasing to 30% AFTER 7PM.

I was satisfied, though erroneously, that we were good to go, with an expected return c. 4PM.

This info WAS presented to the group (as well other info, I suspect) during the briefing, for what it's worth. Now please be careful to NOT berate me for it being insufficient, nor deficient.

I'm asking you and Ed to think twice before continuing to post in a manner that's still seeming like cross-examination. Thanks.

Suz,

I defer to Leon and your better judgment and experience, but isn't towing in large swells different from towing in very dynamic breaking chop in the 4-6 ft range with only a 3sec period?

Unless the tow lines were elastic bungy cords I can only imagine both the towed and towers getting whipsawed dangerously. From all the physics I can imagine given the violent nature of the water I can't imagine that tethering two vessels whose distance and THREE dimensional geometry was so random would've made any sense. In smooth roly-poly big swell, maybe, but not the crazy stuff we had to negotiate...especially being beam seas. Help me out here?

[leong]

"In the conditions you stated, competent paddlers should have been able to tow the slower paddlers (with them paddling). This would have kept the group together."

Again, you don't know what you're talking about! It would have increased the chances of a capsize, for both the tow-er and the tow-ee. Don't you realize that we were there and you weren't? Apparently you really don't know me Suz. In an emergency when towing was required towing would have happened. But, (and this is important), the tow would only have lasted until the Coast Guard or some other help arrived. I wouldn’t screw around being the Rambo hero that you must think I am. Instead of towing someone 5 - 7 miles through heavy conditions and risking his or her life, I would have rafted up and yelled on VHF 16: MAYDAY, MAYDAY, …

"Practice towing in swell, practice being towed in swell. Understand how to back paddle to prevent surfing down on the tower. Practice in the conditions that you may end up needing to use a technique in."

Go preach to someone else Suz. Let me decide for myself what practice I need.

"Practicing in calm conditions does not prepare you for paddling in conditions."

That’s true. But so what? What is this, a nitpicking contest? I towed her only because someone had to get back to the put-in quicker. The point of telling you of that tow was is not to demonstrate that I have the power and energy to tow someone a long distance. Everyone who knows me knows that. The point was (and you apparently missed the point) that even towing in calm conditions jerks the towed boat around. In rough conditions it’s very dangerous to tow for long distances. Read all the armchair Rambo books you want to. I can pontificate too. Listen to me on this. Leon’s Rule of towing: Don’t try to tow long distances through very heavy conditions (unless there is no other choice). And, if you don’t think you have the energy to make it to safety towing another boat then kiss the person goodbye and save yourself. No sense killing two instead of one.

"If the paddlers were unable to remain together in the conditions that they were in, then they were paddling in conditions that were beyond their abilities."

No, they were competent in the conditions. It's just that some pods wanted to paddle faster. I agree that this shouldn't have happened. No one was a dictator. Each pod stayed together. It's just that there were three different pods. What you’re saying is like telling someone that he’s incompetent because he hit a patch of ice and skidded. From the limited information, you don’t know. When you don’t know it’s better not to judge others.

"I have also ended up in conditions that were beyond my abilities. When I rehashed those episodes after, either publicly or with the private paddling group, I used the opportunity to learn from the situations."

Good, but what’s your point?

“Ed put together a real nice list of things to think about.â€

Yes it’s very good. I don’t think this is the only place to post it though. If it’s important, then label it so and place it where everyone can read it, not just in this bloody water where the sharks feed. Not everyone swims here.

[...]

To: Isle of Shoals Team of Seven

I address my comments not to the NSPN community at large but instead to you the IOS Team. I will attempt to keep my comments brief.

I do not have a depth of experience in the kayaking field; instead my depth of experience is in the healthcare field. In healthcare we have, all too often, adverse events. The adverse events always create crucial conversations which are both essential and at times painful. These conversations have multiple phases. In healthcare, the team involved in the event always controls the movement from one phase to another if they establish one common voice.

The first phase is always the discussion phase. When the team is ready and they have established one voice, they frequently request a pause in the discussion while they work to develop a plan. Since healthcare is typically a very collegial community we always honor the request with both dignity and respect.

The adverse event team works on their plan which always has two essential characteristics. 1. The plan must express the unified views of all involved in the event. 2. The plan must be both honest and genuine.

The plan itself typically has three component parts. Part#1 – A clear list of the missteps. Since most events are the result of multiple missteps, all must be listed. Part#2 – A statement of what we learned as a team from those missteps. Part#3 – What is the message we wish to bring forward to the community at large so that other teams will benefit. Everyone within the community makes missteps and we all benefit from this section.

This approach is simply one methodology, you may settle on a more effective approach to move us forward.

As the new day is dawning, I hope my comments have some value.

May you all have safe journeys.

Warren

[rylevine]

Hi Warren,

Welcome to NSPN. In terms of rapidly increasing one's competence in sea kayaking, I dont think you could pick a better organization to join. In the summer, try to make the after-work skills sessions at Chebacco on Thurs, Seabrook on Tues, Walden pond on Weds, and in recent years sessions in Mystic Lake, Lake Gardner, and Forest River/Willows. In the winter, there are pool sessions. There are individuals at these sessions that are very experienced kayakers, and extremely giving of their time to help people develop skills. All these sessions are posted on the web site. This year we had three outstanding CAM sessions - one indoors and two on the water, in which trip planning and execution, navigation, and ocean rescues were discussed and practiced. I think CAM sessions will be repeated next spring. A lot of advice for people new to kayaking is also provided during the well-attended Solstice paddle.

Thank you for the information for the IOS event team on how to effectively assess what happened, and then formulate a constructive response that other NSPN members can gain from. Many of your suggestions are actually being implemented around people's busy schedules.

Bob

[lhunt]

To quote Tyson:

_Learning_ is what NSPN claims to endorse

If that is true, probably you need to get past the "you should never have taken this trip with your skills" point, unless that's all you want to learn about.

The towing question has been asked and answered. Weather, we're consulting on (with the basics already answered). What else? No, we didn't have tents. There is a hotel on Star Island. With ferries. And ice cream. (Yes, I brought a credit card.) I'm just kidding. But you see what I mean. We need to pare down to the relevant questions and stop beating people with sticks at least until the facts are known.

The splendid abilities that some posters admittedly possess are not useful to the discussion if they weren't actually on the paddle.

I might also point out that if you ask the question with a subtext of "How could you be so stupid as to..." you might not actually get an answer.

I'm hoping to hear from Shari and Bob and Leon more about that splendid assisted rescue. I have questions about the second, unintended, pod separation (questions, not criticism), and I think there were some entanglement lessons we could learn from. That's the short list from my point of view. There were plenty of things I did wrong that I'm willing to share.

I think we are going to need a post-mortem for the post-mortem. How should the group dynamics in a posting situation deal with hothead posters who are offensive or overly critical or just want to boast of their own abilities? Can you still learn from the paddlers even if you don't believe their posted reports about conditions? Should there be a CAM workshop on trip reports :-) ?

I'll be out today and I've spent far too much time on this already. Believe me, the whole post-mortem thing has been far more harrowing than the paddle itself, which was a challenge I enjoyed and feel privileged to have experienced.

Lisa

(PS, some posters have been valiantly trying to drag this thread back into the sunlight - thanks! You guys rock.)

[brambor]

I really don't know why this is such a big deal. We learn not to go seakayaking alone. Two is better and three is great. Four (I feel like the holy handgranate in Month Python) is as good as three but is it necessarily better? I don't think so. Five is the same thing ... and on and on...

So the group broke into 3 pods based on their skill levels. Looks like every group had at least one competent paddler to assist with rescues.

They all had radios to call channel 16 in case of catastrophic situation.

The rest is just speculation and monday morning quarterbacking. I'm pretty sure that we all realize that we are risking our lives every time we get our foot out of the door. We have tools at our disposal to deal with situations the best we can. Sometimes the reaper wins and most of the time it's all good.

[tyson]

The "system" is restricting proper inclusion of context, so I'll have to use a different indication of context for some of this post:

To quote Tyson:

---> _Learning_ is what NSPN claims to endorse

If that is true, probably you need to get past the "you should never have taken this trip with your skills" point, unless that's all you want to learn about.

I never said that you never should have taken the trip. I have tried to point out that this is an L4 trip and one needs to consider that before heading out. It was a debate about this being a L3 vs. L4 trip that prompted this specific trip in the first place. My comments in the prior thread were the direct result of my own experience on an IOS trip where I got lucky because things could have been much worse. I have _tried_ to keep my comments to objective fact and forward looking statements. ...though I can't claim infallibility.

What else? No, we didn't have tents. There is a hotel on Star Island. With ferries. And ice cream. (Yes, I brought a credit card.) I'm just kidding. But you see what I mean. We need to pare down to the relevant questions and stop beating people with sticks at least until the facts are known.

Kidding or not, IMHO, this is a very fair response. I don't think I'd bring camping gear on an IOS trip. But Suz's comments does remind me that I have an emergency shelter that perhaps could be on some of my trips but I've been forgetting to pack this season.

---> The splendid abilities that some posters admittedly possess are not useful to

---> the discussion if they weren't actually on the paddle.

They are relevant in the context of a forward looking discussion, which this thread unfortunately has not entirely been. When discussing what skills are possible or reasonable to develop so that one is better prepared for such conditions, such skills are quite relevant. I've lived a life time listening to people proclaim that things are impossible when I easily do them routinely.

I also feel that it is counter productive to declare that anyone who wasn't on the paddle can't possibly have anything to say or contribute. One of the ways that I develop my skills is to consult with people who weren't on my trip. I ask them because they have greater skill and experience than I do. If I always felt that anyone who wasn't with me can't possibly know anything better than I do, I would miss out on a lot of great learning opportunities.

I might also point out that if you ask the question with a subtext of "How could you be so stupid as to..." you might not actually get an answer.

You are absolutely correct!

It is not my intent to create enemies. I joined NSPN because I WANT to paddle with you folks. I joined NSPN because I wanted to learn and become a better paddler. I have very much enjoyed the NSPN trips I've been on and I have learned a MOUNTAIN of knowledge and skill over the past year and a half. I am easily 3 times the paddler I was before my first NSPN paddle ("You lost Gene?!") because of the education that is available here.

Please consider that maybe you are reading much more hostility into the thread than is actually intended.

(questions, not criticism)

That is the intention.

I think we are going to need a post-mortem for the post-mortem.

How should the group dynamics in a posting situation deal with hothead posters who are offensive or overly critical or just want to boast of their own abilities?

Have I been offensive? Do you feel that I have boasted? (those are real questions, not adversarial, rhetorical ones)

Can you still learn from the paddlers even if you don't believe their posted reports about conditions?

...and it is unreasonable to question subjective _estimates_ made by people in a difficult situation? Are you infallible at making these estimates? Questions were raised because there is objective _measurements_ available. There really are relationships between wind, wave height, wave period and wave shape that are dictated by the laws of physics. Those laws don't change from trip to trip.

Should there be a CAM workshop on trip reports :-) ?

Now that appears to be the clearest lesson from this thread!

... which was a challenge I enjoyed and feel privileged to have experienced.

I always most fondly remember experiences that pushed my limits without leaving permanent damage.

(PS, some posters have been valiantly trying to drag this thread back into the sunlight - thanks! You guys rock.)

...I've been trying, but I fear that I'm not on your list.

Ty

[EEL]

Speaking for myself, I was quite troubled by the events as described. I trust you can appreciate when fellow paddlers describe a situation in which they were in "preservation" mode and the group was widely separated with different segments landing miles apart it raises many concerns and questions. As this thread progressed I sensed a fair amount of denial and defensiveness which is understandable, and I might well have done the same. However, it would be unfortunate if that response prevents consideration of alternate views.

It is the nature of this medium to make conversations of this type difficult and intentions/emotions/attitudes are easily misconstrued. That is unfortunate, and we should all be aware of its limitations.

I sought to be restrained, but acknowledge my list of items was not appropriately presented. It seems to me others have been restrained or at least as restrained as some of the participants in the statement of their opinions and their perceptions of what is or is not possible.

I am quite willing to learn from your experience and in fact I have already. If for no other reason than it has caused me to evaluate how I go about journeys and to what extent I have prepared for them.

In return, I hope you are willing accept the opinions of and to learn from others, and I exclude myself, who though not there have the skills and experience to not only comfortably paddle in such conditions, but who have also practiced and accomplished successful group paddles as well as tows and rescues in similar circumstances.

Ed Lawson

[Pintail]

Tyson, you mentioned there having been debate regarding whether this was a level 3 or a level 4 trip -- and on this I am emphatic: there should have been NO debate! This was, by definition, a level 4 trip. Go into "trip levels" and read what is said about exposure to open ocean.

I agree with you that a trip to the IOS <may> be undertaken in level 3 conditions (I've had that, myself); but it is level 4 by definition -- trust me.

Suzanne makes a very apposite remark here:

<If the paddlers were unable to remain together in the conditions that they were in, then they were paddling in conditions that were beyond their abilities>

It is <this> that may (or may not) be the very heart of the matter here under discussion: the need for paddlers to be totally honest regarding their abilities, when responding to a trip posting, in the first place.

Sh*t happens -- we all know that; but when you are all on the same page and all decent paddlers, then the ability to extricate yourselves from the dudu should be understood. I also agree that by never challenging one's self, one does not progress...

So, perhaps we need to look more closely at trip planning and (again) CAM? This should give us something to do through the winter (which is coming, ho hum!)

Like Ed Lawson, I am also troubled by the break-up of the group, as stated previously; but I shall not judge on that.