Don't do what Al did - Puzzler #1

[alcoons]

We all learn from each other. Earlier is better than later. I hope many of you will post puzzlers as soon as the previous one is answered. Here is an easy one - in retrospect.

The Cetus had been working well all day. Paddling a bit off but into the 10-12 knot wind produced the expected weather cocking for its design. We stopped for lunch and headed down wind. The seas picked up a bit - 1.5 ft? The further we moved off shore the more I had trouble maintaining my heading. Well, that happens downwind, downwave. But it got worse and worse. Skeg up, skeg half way, skeg down. Found myself with the paddle extended to one side, mostly paddling on that side. Hardly in control no matter how much I edged or paddled asymmetrically. Found myself on the opposite heading more than once. Much more wind or waves and I would have been unable to continue in the desired general direction.

Is it time for a new boat, much more training, or ????

[Pintail]

Something trailing from the stern, perhaps -- like a loose deckline or red-flag-type thingie? Maybe even a loose hatch cover, aft? Or skeg not doing what you <thought> it should have been doing (ie, loose control or cable)?

BTW, Al, did you think to try moving your arse to one side in the seat?

[Phil Allen]

You say it got worse and worse, with no indications that the conditions did as well. I'd think someone would have seen things dragging behind you. I'll argue for loose hatch cover and taking on water in the stern.

Phil

[tyson]

I think that the problem was weather cocking, not lee cocking. This would suggest that the bow was anchored/engaged too much and so I would guess that it was extra weight (water) in the bow, not the stern.

[spuglisi]

I think that the problem was weather cocking, not lee cocking. This would suggest that the bow was anchored/engaged too much and so I would guess that it was extra weight (water) in the bow, not the stern.

Well, the weather cocking was mentioned before the lunch break...and was thought to be within normal parameters. Since the problem got worse after a break and with following seas. I'd have to go with water getting in a loose day, or stern hatch.

[Katherine]

How about stuff in the hatch? How was the boat loaded? Would re-distributing the "stuff" have helped?

Katherine

[Michael_Crouse]

I wouldn't obsess about it too much, years ago on a trip I just couldn't roll. Ok I didn't roll then I convinced myself that I couldn't roll because I thought about it too much. The solution was to knock it off and stop trying to roll, a few weeks later I was rolling again without any practice or change in technique.

My point is if you've paddled in those conditions before without any problem maybe it was just one of those days, we've all had them.

[tyson]

Why is everyone saying that weathercocking is promoted by more weight in the stern? ...that is contrary to what I think I know (knew?).

[alcoons]

Great responses. First answer had it right. I broke my rule of always checking my skeg after leaving the beach. It was jammed up by a rock and a shell. But then I might not have caught it. Let me explain.

The skeg on the Cetus is controlled by a slide on the left side of the cockpit. From there a thin (flexible) cord runs internally back to the skeg. I moved the slide often as the problem increased but did not realize the skeg was not lowering. Unlike skegs controlled by stiff wires, the slide can move without the skeg moving.

I finally realized the skeg was not lowering when I saw a small loop of the cord next to the skeg level when I pulled it towards the stern.

So, don't do what Al did!

(1) Always check your skeg when you leave the beach in a way to ensure that it actually comes down, and

(2) Don't miss the obvious -- I knew the boat was not handling as it should with the skeg even partially down, but I did not make the connection since the skeg adjustment level seemed to be functioning normally.

I hope others will share some more Puzzlers.

Al

[spuglisi]

Why is everyone saying that weathercocking is promoted by more weight in the stern? ...that is contrary to what I think I know (knew?).

Tyson,

I agree with you that extra weight (water) in the stern wouldn't tend to contribute to weatercocking. But, from Al's scenario it wasn't clear to me that, after the lunch break, weatercocking was the problem. He only mentioned weathercocking before they stopped.

[Pintail]

There could, conceivably, have been one other scenerio; but it would have had to have been tough to pull it off without detection by Al -- a friendly (wicked?) co-paddler might have been keeping pace with Al, just off his stern, and that person might have been nudging his stern periodically...

BTW, Al: time to remove your skeg altogether? Just cut out the whole box and fibreglass it over! End of recurrent stony problem -- of course, you'd have to get comfortable with protracted edging over a distance?

[rick stoehrer]

There could, conceivably, have been one other scenerio; but it would have had to have been tough to pull it off without detection by Al -- a friendly (wicked?) co-paddler might have been keeping pace with Al, just off his stern, and that person might have been nudging his stern periodically...

BTW, Al: time to remove your skeg altogether? Just cut out the whole box and fibreglass it over! End of recurrent stony problem -- of course, you'd have to get comfortable with protracted edging over a distance?

a lot of problems can be traced back to the cockpit region of one boat or another.

[PeterB]

a lot of problems can be traced back to the cockpit region of one boat or another.

Cetus weathercocks a lot. wind from rear quarter and following seas can be a bear: you may have gotten fatigued, which can translate into subtle changes in ones normal boat handling, and turn things into "one of those days" .

best you can do is:

1) Load boat stern heavy. things in the stern hatch.

2)skeg down

3)corrective strokes and edging.

4) have someone tow you. when someone is towing just to help you with directional control, and you're still paddling, its not that hard on the tower (nothing close to towing a non-paddling person, or a rafted tow), so always should be an option in a mixed group: won't really slow down or burden the group, and will keep everyone together.

[alcoons]

BTW, Al: time to remove your skeg altogether? Just cut out the whole box and fibreglass it over! End of recurrent stony problem -- of course, you'd have to get comfortable with protracted edging over a distance?

Not sure what the recurring problem is??? I posted this because it was an example of my not reacting well to a new problem. Cetus does weather cock more than most boats, part of the compromise of a Cetus. However, with the skeg down it works fine.

On the other hand, I would not even consider paddling a Cetus without a skeg, at least without a significant load in addition to my rear end. I don't believe even those with much better technique than I would have found any satisfaction in compensating for the weather cocking I experienced. By the way, the two paddlers that continued on and circled Childrens reported increase conditions.

[rick stoehrer]

Not sure what the recurring problem is??? I posted this because it was an example of my not reacting well to a new problem. Cetus does weather cock more than most boats, part of the compromise of a Cetus. However, with the skeg down it works fine.

On the other hand, I would not even consider paddling a Cetus without a skeg, at least without a significant load in addition to my rear end. I don't believe even those with much better technique than I would have found any satisfaction in compensating for the weather cocking I experienced. By the way, the two paddlers that continued on and circled Childrens reported increase conditions.

the "stony" problem to which he refers is just that - a stone. they can get caught in the skeg box and prevent the skeg from deploying. christopher also suggest a remedy of cutting out said box but if the boat weathercocks like a mother then you really, really don't want to do that. some boats definitely benefit from a skeg...if the cetus is one, you don't want to eliminate it. if you're in bumpier water, the skeg will be out of the water a good bit as the wave/swell catches, passes under you and your stern is dry back there...doesn't sound like a really nice boat to be in, does it?

in regards to cockpit region pecadillo's....loading the stern, holding an edge, sweeps, deploying the skeg or even maybe lashing a dry bag to the front deck are all possible solutions for weathercocking.

you seem to indicate in your initial post al that you've got the solution to your problem....so what's your answer?

[gyork]

Always check your skeg when you leave the beach....

Al

Good advice, and please remind others, before getting in boats. Two other items I try to remember at launch time:

-last-second check that hatches are tightly sealed, especially when on safari, or rough waters ahead

-radio check for all pod members

[rick stoehrer]

the "stony" problem to which he refers is just that - a stone. they can get caught in the skeg box and prevent the skeg from deploying. christopher also suggest a remedy of cutting out said box but if the boat weathercocks like a mother then you really, really don't want to do that. some boats definitely benefit from a skeg...if the cetus is one, you don't want to eliminate it. if you're in bumpier water, the skeg will be out of the water a good bit as the wave/swell catches, passes under you and your stern is dry back there...doesn't sound like a really nice boat to be in, does it?

in regards to cockpit region pecadillo's....loading the stern, holding an edge, sweeps, deploying the skeg or even maybe lashing a dry bag to the front deck are all possible solutions for weathercocking.

you seem to indicate in your initial post al that you've got the solution to your problem....so what's your answer?

ahh, oh...i see....i was right...the problem was in the cockpit.

[alcoons]

the "stony" problem to which he refers is just that - a stone.

Actually, now that I think more about my "normal procedure" and just returning from the driveway where I happened to check the skeg before putting the boat on the car:

When I do test my skeg when I leave the shore, I can hear/feel when it deploys. If I am not mistaken there is a bit of thump then it reaches fully down. Will see if my memory serves me correctly tomorrow.

2) In the last 7 years I think I have had a jammed skeg coming off the beach maybe three times. Things I try to do that help:

a. Don't drag the stern over sand/rocks. Dah.

b. If the launch allows it, check the skeg before you get in and paddle out. Much easier to clear.

c. Stay home and watch the World Cup.

[JohnHuth]

That's happened to me a few times - the skeg cable seems to move, but the skeg itself doesn't because it's jammed.

I was playing with weather cocking a few days ago - wind on the beam. When I leaned backward, it had a miraculous effect of swinging me right back on course.

[ayong]

That's happened to me a few times - the skeg cable seems to move, but the skeg itself doesn't because it's jammed.

I was playing with weather cocking a few days ago - wind on the beam. When I leaned backward, it had a miraculous effect of swinging me right back on course.

When I put in a new seat in my Force 5, it stopped responding to the skeg; when I added weight in the rear hatch, it responded beautifully. I then moved the new seat back 1/2 inch, voila--excellent response to skeg.

Al, hope to get out later this month.

Tom

[alcoons]

When I put in a new seat in my Force 5, it stopped responding to the skeg; when I added weight in the rear hatch, it responded beautifully. I then moved the new seat back 1/2 inch, voila--excellent response to skeg.

Al, hope to get out later this month.

Tom

Hi Tom.

I put all my day gear in the rear hatch last Saturday. While the wind was really too light to tell, it did seem to help. Of course, I started this thread over my failure to realize the skeg was not deploying even though the skeg lever was moving. I did check to see if I could hear it deploy. Not much noise on the way down as I tested as I left the beach. But then, there was a clear thump when it comes up -- the position you usually leave it in after a test. So that should be an easy way to check without canting the boat before I get in.

Hope to see you soon.

[subaruguru]

Hi Tom.

I put all my day gear in the rear hatch last Saturday. While the wind was really too light to tell, it did seem to help. Of course, I started this thread over my failure to realize the skeg was not deploying even though the skeg lever was moving. I did check to see if I could hear it deploy. Not much noise on the way down as I tested as I left the beach. But then, there was a clear thump when it comes up -- the position you usually leave it in after a test. So that should be an easy way to check without canting the boat before I get in.

Hope to see you soon.

Hi Al,

I found through much trial and error that using the skeg is a much better mitigator of wind-cocking with the Cetus than loading the stern. Although the Cetus' Swede-form fat ass begs to be loaded, the resultant "lighter" high volume bow will run even drier, but unfortunately in moderate chop become VERY percussive, slamming loudly when trying to make progress. Whereas this nature helps when surfing this big guy, the violent trampolining grows very tiresome when trying to make way in the stuff. I found that even 5 pounds of gear in the FRONT hatch weighs down the bow enough to dampen extreme bouncing. You'll be amazed at the difference.

Having to completely correct the poorly-built skeg slot geomtery of my clear-hull was the only major annoyance of my Cetus. I liked its stock seat so much I retrofitted one into my Force 5, and may have to hunt down another for the upcoming Vaag.

As mentioned at our last paddle, P&H skeg control slider friction increased often with mine, when I thought the culprit was in the line. Occasional dousing with WD40 (or any LIGHT low-residue lube) worked wonders, as the plastic used to make the controller parts is NOT self-lubricatiing, like some of the fluorocarbons ($$$).

See ya.

Ern

[jason]

Hi Al,

I found through much trial and error that using the skeg is a much better mitigator of wind-cocking with the Cetus than loading the stern. Although the Cetus' Swede-form fat ass begs to be loaded, the resultant "lighter" high volume bow will run even drier, but unfortunately in moderate chop become VERY percussive, slamming loudly when trying to make progress. Whereas this nature helps when surfing this big guy, the violent trampolining grows very tiresome when trying to make way in the stuff. I found that even 5 pounds of gear in the FRONT hatch weighs down the bow enough to dampen extreme bouncing. You'll be amazed at the difference.

Having to completely correct the poorly-built skeg slot geomtery of my clear-hull was the only major annoyance of my Cetus. I liked its stock seat so much I retrofitted one into my Force 5, and may have to hunt down another for the upcoming Vaag.

As mentioned at our last paddle, P&H skeg control slider friction increased often with mine, when I thought the culprit was in the line. Occasional dousing with WD40 (or any LIGHT low-residue lube) worked wonders, as the plastic used to make the controller parts is NOT self-lubricatiing, like some of the fluorocarbons ($$$).

See ya.

Ern

Ern,

P&H has a line upgrade kit for the cetus to make the skeg easier to work:

http://www.phseakayaks.com/newsSheet.php?boardID=1&id=13

[subaruguru]

Ern,

P&H has a line upgrade kit for the cetus to make the skeg easier to work:

http://www.phseakayaks.com/newsSheet.php?boardID=1&id=13

Interesting. But I found the serious problem was an incorrectly-formed skeg "slot" that required rebuilding to hold the skeg, and then finally "stiction" on the plastic controller sliding parts, NOT the internal line. So they upgrade the line instead? Figures....

Owners should also note that the pinch-clamp used on the spring-bungy to secure it in its skeg slot can loosen, reducing or eliminating release tension. As well, the line is wound around the skeg hubs, but in some cases will slip off this thin axis, requiring rewinding it, and learning to use a zip tie to hold it around the hub circumference. Very clever design relatively poorly executed with cheap parts.

[jason]

Interesting. But I found the serious problem was an incorrectly-formed skeg "slot" that required remolding to hold the skeg, and then finally "stiction" on the plastic controller sliding parts, NOT the internal line. So they upgrade the line instead? Figures....

From what I have hear the old line is hygroscopic and will swell especially on long multi day trips. The inner cor would also become lose from the outer core that would then streach.

-Jason