Valley Avocet LV Seat

[deeski]

Hi Folks,

I have a new Avocet LV, and after paddling a couple of days on it, I find that the seat is poorly designed. It is digging into my hamstrings and causing discomfort. At first I ripped out the pad, but the ridge from the molded plastic underneath the pad is still digging in.

So I need to rip the entire assembly out and start from scratch. Could anyone help me with what the best kind of foam to use is, and where I can get it? Should I just start with a blank square and rasp it to my butt size, or should I find a premolded foam blank to customize? I will also need to create thigh braces, because I am using my knees to make contact with the boat deck. (short legs)

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I want to get this beautiful boat to fit!!!

Thanks!

Dee

[Suz]

You can buy grey minicell foam and build a seat to fit your bottom. Brian Nystrom has some good examples on his website and step by step procedures. It does take time though.

The other option is to see if you can buy one of the NDK foam seats. Not sure who might be stocking them nowadays - try Tom Bergh or Greg Paquin. They are nice covered foam seats and they work well and you just need to glue them down.

As for your knees contacting the boat - that is a sure fire problem - sure to give you knee pain (for me it was on the inside of the knee that got so bad that at one point, I could barely stand in the morning). So definitely pad the deck down on the inside and then put thigh hooks in - that way you won't be putting pressure on the knee.

You can check around for foam, New England Small Craft used to stock it, you can start looking there. Get a full bun or a half bun and then you will have plenty for other small projects. I have bought online here: http://www.sweetcomposites.com/Minicel.html

Full buns are 4' x 4' x 3" thick.

Suz

[Phil Allen]

The kayak center in RI does mail order foam for not too bad shipping. On the seat issue, you might want to check out the pre-made foam kayak seat (but pad, backrest and hip braces) that redfish kayaks sells. They sell plans or kits for strip built wooden boats. http://www.redfishkayak.com/seats.htm

Phil

[brambor]

I followed Brian's information to rip out a seat in Valley Quajariaq and install minicell foam. It worked quite well. My desire was simply to sit lower in the kayak ( I think I have too much of natural padding / lol)

NESC has the minicell squares the last time I checked (month ago). You'll need this tool and Wellwood glue.

Brian might chime in with his link. I don't have it anymore.

Rene

You can buy grey minicell foam and build a seat to fit your bottom. Brian Nystrom has some good examples on his website and step by step procedures. It does take time though.

The other option is to see if you can buy one of the NDK foam seats. Not sure who might be stocking them nowadays - try Tom Bergh or Greg Paquin. They are nice covered foam seats and they work well and you just need to glue them down.

As for your knees contacting the boat - that is a sure fire problem - sure to give you knee pain (for me it was on the inside of the knee that got so bad that at one point, I could barely stand in the morning). So definitely pad the deck down on the inside and then put thigh hooks in - that way you won't be putting pressure on the knee.

You can check around for foam, New England Small Craft used to stock it, you can start looking there. Get a full bun or a half bun and then you will have plenty for other small projects. I have bought online here: http://www.sweetcomposites.com/Minicel.html

Full buns are 4' x 4' x 3" thick.

Suz

[Gcosloy]

If the only complaint about the seat is the edge digging into your thighs a temporary solution while you're designing the idea foam seat is under thigh support.

http://www.sunnysports.com/prod/SLNDKTCN.h...ci_sku=SLNDKTCN

I've use one of these for years and find it solves many issues like legs falling a sleep, sciatica as well as relieving pressure under the thighs.

[Phil Allen]

To add to Gene's suggestion, a cheaper approach is an inflatable camp pillow. http://www.brandsonsale.com/hg-004770.html A friend I paddle with uses one both for comfort and to increase or decrease the space between his thighs and the deck for better connection to the boat depending on the degree of inflation. Of course if you swim, it does to.

Phil

[Deb Millar]

I have an AvocetLV and, while I don't have any issues with the seat although I did remove the padding, I always figure what works for one person won't necessarily work for someone else.

While I can't offer you any advice, I can sell you an NDK foam seat. We bought these a few years ago in case I needed to replace them in my ExplorerLV and RomanyLV when I moved those seats 1" forward. I didn't need to, though -- careful removal of the originals per BNystrom's excellent instructions on the web meant I could still use them -- so I have 2 for sale.

Contact me if you're interested.

gaeldotcridheatverizondotnet

And I agree, it's a great kayak. I never thought I'd give up my NDK's, but I'm pretty happy so far with the AvocetLV for fit and playfulness.

Deb M

[jdkilroy]

Before giving up on Valley's seat Dee, try removing the thick foam under the forward edge of the seat. When you reinstall, you will want to place a shim or washers between the fwd part of the seat support to get it to tip down. This may remove that pressure point on the thigh.

I actually used a piece of fiberglass tape to hold the front edge of the seat down in another Valley for the same reason and that worked great. Its a good seat if you can get it adjusted right for you.

Jon

[kate]

When my Avocet seat FELL out and disappeared during transport, I replaced it with this one from Chesapeake Light Craft:

http://www.clcboats.com/shop/products/boat...kayak-seat.html

Has worked fine and it's cheap and easy. They have a few other choices too.

Kate

[kate]

A friend I paddle with uses one both for comfort and to increase or decrease the space between his thighs and the deck for better connection to the boat depending on the degree of inflation. Of course if you swim, it does to.

Phil

He doesn't sit on it, it's in front of his seat. Actually, his is held in place with heavy-duty velcro. Not that I'd expect a swim from him....

kate

[Gcosloy]

Here is another option which I find quite comfortable.

http://www.neckykayaks.com/kayaks/outfitting/seats.shtml

It is simply attached with velcro to the bottom of the cockpit.

[Pintail]

<...Before giving up on Valley's seat Dee, try removing the thick foam under the forward edge of the seat...>

There is a potential problem with this, JonD: when any padding is removed from under the front edge of the seat, there will be friction between the seat itself and the boat, so that the fibreglass hull will be compromised in time -- guaranteed!

(Ask me how I know...when I removed the seat from my old Sirius, there was barely a millimetre's worth of gelcoat between where my arse had been and the ocean)

[jdkilroy]

Certainly with time, (a lot of time considering the fairly soft plastic that valley uses for their seats) this could be an issue but leaving a 1/8" strip of minicell in place of the 3/4" strip or laying a single layer of glass over the potential wear area should put anyone's mind at ease. For that matter, check the hull thickness beneath your heels...

The Valley seat is intrinsically comfortable and allows excellent rotation. The raised front edge has proven to be an issue for more than a couple of folks I know. Dropping the front edge not only removes the pressure on the back of the thighs but also places the paddler in a more dynamic posture and makes it easier to stay in that position; with adjustment, the OEM seat offers excellent sacral support.

This is all highly subject to personal preference and body shape but my point is that the current OEM Valley seats have plenty to offer and should not be discarded because initial fit is less than perfect.

Jon

[Bill Lord]

<...Before giving up on Valley's seat Dee, try removing the thick foam under the forward edge of the seat...>

There is a potential problem with this, JonD: when any padding is removed from under the front edge of the seat, there will be friction between the seat itself and the boat, so that the fibreglass hull will be compromised in time -- guaranteed!

(Ask me how I know...when I removed the seat from my old Sirius, there was barely a millimetre's worth of gelcoat between where my arse had been and the ocean)

I removed some of the under support of the seat in my Quest and was faced with the same problem: the bottom of the seat rubbing the hull. I compensated for it by gluing a thin piece of neoprene rubber I bought in a craft store and have had no problem.

[jason]

I removed some of the under support of the seat in my Quest and was faced with the same problem: the bottom of the seat rubbing the hull. I compensated for it by gluing a thin piece of neoprene rubber I bought in a craft store and have had no problem.

My seat was rubbing my hull to. As I didn't have much left I ended up adding 4 layers of glass, to give it some more time.

-Jason

[subaruguru]

I have an extra Necky stick-on Chatham foam seat you can try. But what I found better FOR ME was the current molded plastic seat P&H uses. Comes in M and L, about $75 list. You then have to figure out how to"hang and glue it to your 'yak. Retrofitted into my Force Cat5 perfectly, and was a great improvement. If you use the Chatham $35 stick-on you'll probably want to add thigh or side pads as it's just a bottom foam cushion. Lemme know if you want to try mine.

Ern

[Brian Nystrom]

If you want to see a simple and inexpensive method for making a seat, check out my "Seat Removal & Replacement" and "Kayak Outfitting" albums on Webshots at:

http://community.webshots.com/user/brian_nystrom-reg

[GJ Carey]

If you want to see a simple and inexpensive method for making a seat, check out my "Seat Removal & Replacement" and "Kayak Outfitting" albums on Webshots at:

http://community.webshots.com/user/brian_nystrom-reg

I followed Brian's excellent instructions when replacing a seat in an Explorer. Worked great, and has been nice and comfy ever since!

[Doug]

I had the same problem with a Boreal Design boat of mine. I went with with a more expensive option that works very well for me. "Redfish Kayak" has you create a template of your boats dimensions (directions given on web-sight) along with a phone call to tweak it to your butt size and I got an incredibly comfortable seat.

http://www.redfishkayak.com/seats.htm

[tyson]

Certainly with time, (a lot of time considering the fairly soft plastic that valley uses for their seats)

The truth is that frequently it is the hard material that wears while the soft material survives. In many cases, sand will embed in the soft material. Because it is embedded, it will not do much to abrade it. The hard material will then get ground down by the sand (or other hard grit) embedded in the soft material.

[Michael_Crouse]

Just curious if anyone here who switched to a foam seat from a fiberglass seat finds that their torso rotation is inhibited? I ask because I never see any racers using foam seats and I feel like the foam seat in my Argonaut doesn't allow me to slide around (in a good way) like the glass seat in my other kayaks.

[emilie]

Just curious if anyone here who switched to a foam seat from a fiberglass seat finds that their torso rotation is inhibited? I ask because I never see any racers using foam seats and I feel like the foam seat in my Argonaut doesn't allow me to slide around (in a good way) like the glass seat in my other kayaks.

I would definitely agree that the foam seats tend to be stickier and I can't use power from my legs as well.

Emilie

[Deb Millar]

Just curious if anyone here who switched to a foam seat from a fiberglass seat finds that their torso rotation is inhibited? I ask because I never see any racers using foam seats and I feel like the foam seat in my Argonaut doesn't allow me to slide around (in a good way) like the glass seat in my other kayaks.

I'd been told from a reliable source who specializes in forward stroke that the foam seat in my Romany and ExplorerLV's would inhabit my rotation as the seat wouldn't be as "slippery" on my sitz bones. He and the other coach he was working with had me sit on a hard surface and "paddle" to prove their point.

As much as I dearly love my foam-seated NDKs, they were right.

At first I thought the reason I could "feel" my bum rotating in the AvocetLV was because my butt is a bit smaller than in the past due to my becoming a semi-gym rat . However, there is a definite difference in my stroke.

Of course, this could be attributed to the fact I'm pushing less boat (although not that much) and a different hull (I DO NOT WANT TO GET INTO A DISCUSSION HERE ABOUT HULL VS SPEED VS THE PHYSICS OF PADDLING ) through the water, coupled with the fact that the AvocetLV's cockpit is only 11.5" deep. It could also mean my stroke/rep rate is higher. However, I do feel that I can rotate better due to the harder surface.

Or, it's all in my head because the honeymoon is still in progress with the new boat.

Deb M

[EEL]

Just curious if anyone here who switched to a foam seat from a fiberglass seat finds that their torso rotation is inhibited?

About 90% of my paddling time is spent sitting on a ribbed sleeping pad with my legs flat on the hull so my impression may not be relevant, but rotation seems OK sitting in this manner. I doubt I am moving my buttocks as someone with a racing stroke and legs bent and pushing would, but I am rotating my torso and the buttocks (slightly). I have found the width of the cockpit is a big factor in ability to paddle with rotation. That said, for "regular" cockpit seats I greatly prefer hard glass and abhor any paddling as it does seem less comfortable and inhibits rotation.

Ed Lawson

[Brian Nystrom]

Just curious if anyone here who switched to a foam seat from a fiberglass seat finds that their torso rotation is inhibited? I ask because I never see any racers using foam seats and I feel like the foam seat in my Argonaut doesn't allow me to slide around (in a good way) like the glass seat in my other kayaks.

Racers also do not use back bands, which inhibit hip rotation. It's important to distinguish between torso rotation and hip rotation, as the latter occurs between one's butt and the seat. A sticky foam seat and/or a back band will inhibit hip rotation, but have little or no effect on torso rotation that takes place from the hips up.

Hip rotation increases stroke length and engages the legs more, adding power to the stroke, but it requires a boat that's set up with a slick - or rotating - seat, no back band and enough height in the cockpit to allow some knee pumping (typically with the knees close together in the center of the cockpit). Whether one is willing to do this in a touring boat is the real question, as it may sacrifice "all-day comfort" for performance. Moreover, the more energetic racing stroke is also more tiring and harder on the body. If one's purpose in paddling is to get from point A to point B as quickly as possible, it may be worth the trade-off, but if you're simply out to enjoy island hopping, poking around the shoreline or other casual pursuits, it's probably not a good compromise.