Paddles here, paddles there...

[jdkilroy]

Looking for input from experienced, conditions paddlers on their choice of spare paddle placement; fore deck or aft deck. What has been your experience in rough water and surf; heading into the beach and just as importantly, launching through. What's your method of securing them.

No slight intended to those using traditional paddles but I'm interested specifically in split euro paddles.

I have always kept my aft deck clear for self-rescue options with a spare splt euro the only thing on the fore deck. Now I need to consider the possibility of having a (large-ish) deck bag on the fore deck and there not being enough room up there for the spare paddle.

Thanks for your input, Jon

[bob budd]

I read your post. I'd still recommend a greenland storm paddle on your fore deck. No need to put it together when the need arises. Easy to slide in/out under bungies. Personally, I'd rather have a bag behind me and/or figure out why all the stuff doesn't fit in the hatches (you're carrying too much?). Good luck, the classic aft deck bungie arrangement does suit those funny paddles well.

[jason]

Looking for input from experienced, conditions paddlers on their choice of spare paddle placement; fore deck or aft deck. What has been your experience in rough water and surf; heading into the beach and just as importantly, launching through. What's your method of securing them.

No slight intended to those using traditional paddles but I'm interested specifically in split euro paddles.

I have always kept my aft deck clear for self-rescue options with a spare splt euro the only thing on the fore deck. Now I need to consider the possibility of having a (large-ish) deck bag on the fore deck and there not being enough room up there for the spare paddle.

Thanks for your input, Jon

Jon,

I recommend keeping them on the fore deck as if they wash away you know it then. If you lose a paddle from the aft deck you might not know it for some time.

I know you are attempting a long paddle and I would recommend keeping the same split up front as you day to day paddle. As it could be a real problem to be out a week into a month long paddle and break your main paddle to be stuck with a paddle that you would rather not paddle all day long for another x days. If you unlucky enough to break two paddles you might be luck enough to break a left and right and still have a fully working paddle. (In my paddling history I have broken 4 paddles so far which makes this something that I think about).

-Jason

[rick stoehrer]

Looking for input from experienced, conditions paddlers on their choice of spare paddle placement; fore deck or aft deck. What has been your experience in rough water and surf; heading into the beach and just as importantly, launching through. What's your method of securing them.

No slight intended to those using traditional paddles but I'm interested specifically in split euro paddles.

I have always kept my aft deck clear for self-rescue options with a spare splt euro the only thing on the fore deck. Now I need to consider the possibility of having a (large-ish) deck bag on the fore deck and there not being enough room up there for the spare paddle.

Thanks for your input, Jon

i have my right hand split on the right foredeck and the left hand split on the left rear deck. as the day hatch is on the right hand side, it's still clear. the point in having one fore and one aft is that then i can grab SOMETHING should the need arise (and yeah, that's likely overkill).

to secure through surf and rough water

FRONT

take the split and starting at the bungies up by the R hand side of the bow...

you place the split under the bungie with the open end of the shaft towards the cockpit...

then you rotate that around so that the bungie is twisted on that end and now the blade is the end toward the cockpit....

slide it so that you can get the paddle end under the bungies that are now closer to the cockpit where you can reach it...

make sure that the spoon face is up so that it isn't a struggle to try to have a purchase on the thing if/when you need it. if you face it down i find it more difficult.

practice getting the thing out of there while in your boat. not too hard.

getting it back under there alone on the water it is impossible to do the twisting (but consider that if you need your split while on the water then the paddle you were using is now trash or something else has gone terribly awry and so why worry about how you're going to secure anything? you've probably got better things to be doing at that point, ya?) and sometimes hard to get the paddle under the bungie so i've got wooden balls on the bungie that hold it up off the deck slightly and you can slide your stuff under them.

REAR

same process in the rear and on the L so that you can access the day hatch.

i've never had them come loose in rough water or surfing by attaching them that way and i can still access them on the water.

you'll go through bungie a bit quicker but it's pennies to replace once a year.

and i agree with the twiggers...traditional paddles are excellent to have along and provide a warm feeling....but that's mostly as firewood when you hit shore and the excitement is over.

[risingsn]

i have my right hand split on the right foredeck and the left hand split on the left rear deck. as the day hatch is on the right hand side, it's still clear. the point in having one fore and one aft is that then i can grab SOMETHING should the need arise (and yeah, that's likely overkill).

to secure through surf and rough water

FRONT

take the split and starting at the bungies up by the R hand side of the bow...

you place the split under the bungie with the open end of the shaft towards the cockpit...

then you rotate that around so that the bungie is twisted on that end and now the blade is the end toward the cockpit....

slide it so that you can get the paddle end under the bungies that are now closer to the cockpit where you can reach it...

make sure that the spoon face is up so that it isn't a struggle to try to have a purchase on the thing if/when you need it. if you face it down i find it more difficult.

practice getting the thing out of there while in your boat. not too hard.

getting it back under there alone on the water it is impossible to do the twisting (but consider that if you need your split while on the water then the paddle you were using is now trash or something else has gone terribly awry and so why worry about how you're going to secure anything? you've probably got better things to be doing at that point, ya?) and sometimes hard to get the paddle under the bungie so i've got wooden balls on the bungie that hold it up off the deck slightly and you can slide your stuff under them.

REAR

same process in the rear and on the L so that you can access the day hatch.

i've never had them come loose in rough water or surfing by attaching them that way and i can still access them on the water.

you'll go through bungie a bit quicker but it's pennies to replace once a year.

and i agree with the twiggers...traditional paddles are excellent to have along and provide a warm feeling....but that's mostly as firewood when you hit shore and the excitement is over.

Hi Jon, Well, first I would suggest ditching the deck bag unless you plan on putting 20+ milers on without a landing. Everything should fit in your PFD & day hatch (hence the name). I keep both haves @ the bow where I can see them & they are out of the way. Also if they are @ the bow you could (w/ lots of practice) retrieve 1/2 a paddle & roll up. I like to be able to return my spare to its original location after retrieving my lost primary (I'm an optimist). I have an Avocet & @ the bow are 3 RDFs w/ bungie between them. I didn't feel that the bungie itself had enough grip on the shafts so I put a piece of clear soft tubing over them & tightened them as much as possible w/ still enough room to get the shafts under from the cockpit. Well theirs my 2 cents ($3.50 w/ the coming inflation), Chuck

[jdkilroy]

I only plan to carry a paddle that will serve as a seamless back-up for the rest of the trip hence the comment in the opening post about a traditional paddle; it is not an option by my choice.

Distances will be 30+ nm per day; 20+ nm without landing is a certainty on many days.

As far as fore deck bags go; it has nothing at all to do with carrying too much; there's a valid use for them. In conditions and solo; getting at food, camera, VHF, a flare etc; poking around in the day hatch is a problem. Try it sometime in rough water.

I have noticed how you do it Rick and that has worked very well. Not sure that I will have the option of splitting the halves fore and aft if I use the fore deck bag I have in mind.

With regard to retrieving 1/2 a split and rolling up; I have no trouble doing that and getting a half from either the fore or aft deck makes little difference.

Awareness of whether something has happened to the paddle when stored on the aft deck is a valid point.

Thanks for replies so far

Jon

[rick stoehrer]

I only plan to carry a paddle that will serve as a seamless back-up for the rest of the trip hence the comment in the opening post about a traditional paddle; it is not an option by my choice.

Distances will be 30+ nm per day; 20+ nm without landing is a certainty on many days.

As far as fore deck bags go; it has nothing at all to do with carrying too much; there's a valid use for them. In conditions and solo; getting at food, camera, VHF, a flare etc; poking around in the day hatch is a problem. Try it sometime in rough water.

I have noticed how you do it Rick and that has worked very well. Not sure that I will have the option of splitting the halves fore and aft if I use the fore deck bag I have in mind.

With regard to retrieving 1/2 a split and rolling up; I have no trouble doing that and getting a half from either the fore or aft deck makes little difference.

Awareness of whether something has happened to the paddle when stored on the aft deck is a valid point.

Thanks for replies so far

Jon

on the aft paddle coming loose - yes, i agree, you can't see it and it's a concern but when i have it rigged in there like that it HAS NEVER come loose - and i've played hard surfing and bopping about in some fairly large bouncy water and it's so far stayed put. i think that the trick is controlling that open end of the paddle...if you can control that end (hence the twisting in the bungie) then the thing is more likely to stay in place. again, never been a problem.

don't have too much experience with a deck bag, think i only used one once, didn't like the clutter and it's sitting in a bin in the barn somewhere. i did put a knee tube in my old orion and that did the trick well enough for snacks and such and it kept the deck clear but certainly to each his own.

whatever you're doing sounds like fun jon...can you tell us what the trip is or is it under double secret probation?

[NPSheehan]

I've asked this question myself and the more I hear the pros and cons of both ways the more I feel it comes down to a personal choice. I've seen photos of expedition kayakers with paddles on the fore deck as well as aft. I've seen many people with skinny sticks on the foredeck as backups as well. I personally keep my spare on the aft deck and have no problem reaching back and pulling one out. With that said I've never broken a paddle and had to do that. I've also done self rescues in the standard paddle float re-entry as well as ladder/cowboy with the paddles on the aft deck and didn't have a problem. With that said I doubt I'd ever do one of these methods if I capsized and had to wet exit as a re-enter and roll is my preferred methodology for getting back upright non-assisted after a swim. I also carry a foam paddle float on my aft deck. It does cover the day hatch but I could never get into the day hatch anyway so I don't keep anything in there that I need while on the water. If by some chance I do need something from the day hatch I ask a paddling buddy to get it for me. I'm not a solo paddler and thus very very seldom paddle alone and if I do it's never on an expedition or rough water. If I was to do more solo trips I would probably consider a deck bag on my fore deck.

Neil

[DanR]

I use a bit of ABS plumbing pipe and I put the tubes under the front bungies where they stay all the time. Very solid system and if you have to use one of the paddle halves you can always slip it back into the tube afterward...

[EEL]

Distances will be 30+ nm per day; 20+ nm without landing is a certainty on many days.

As far as fore deck bags go; it has nothing at all to do with carrying too much; there's a valid use for them. In conditions and solo; getting at food, camera, VHF, a flare etc; poking around in the day hatch is a problem. Try it sometime in rough water.

Sounds to me as if it would be helpful to talk to someone like Mark Schoon who has done a long, relatively fast paddle or two as to how he did it and how it worked. I noticed that he had his splits on the foredeck and used a deck bag. However, Allen had the splits on the rear deck and no deck bag. I rather think these folks have systems which work for them after a series of trials and errors and adapting what is in sync with how you operate would be a way to limit the trials and errors.

Ed Lawson

[thief]

up front in drain waste tubes....easy to grab as needed...and easy to put back away when done.....

rob

[thief]

more pictures of the deck

http://picasaweb.google.com/corgimas/Kayak...303968255206034

[jdkilroy]

You can see the arrangement that I use all the time in the photo at the end of Rick's recent post re Jenness Beach in "trip reports." Those tubes work really well.

The issue is more that if I use the larger fore deck bag then I won't have room on the foredeck for paddles. (I await the arrival of a loaner Nordkapp to properly evaluate this; I am using a Nordkapp LV right now.

I find that I have consistently almost lost a split in surf because the water gets under the blade and lifts it off the deck and the migration begins. I have fitted some of my boats with a strap with fastek buckles that I cinch down onto 6the blades to pevent any movement; that is the most secure method I have used to date. I have to say, Rick's method seems the easiest but I would still feel inclined to use the strap to secure the blade end of the paddles.

I do appreciate the input, Jon

[Doug]

John, I know you are concerned with your wrists hurting with the use of a Greenland Paddle as a spare but perhaps a quick class with Turner & Cheri can adjust your Greenland form to work well for you in the event of an emergency when you do your circumnavigation. On most paddle trips I use both euro & Greenland paddles so the transition between them takes but seconds to adjust. Ben Lawry mentioned to me last year that he uses the exact forward strokes for both paddles. When I mentioned to him that Greenland tended to be a lower stroke, (what do I know) he said Greenland racers use a very vertical stroke. Hummmmmm. I have adopted his school of thought but my paddling style is consistently evolving it seems.

I just finished building a Greenland paddle as an experiment with a canter to the loom angle and find it an interesting concept and comfortable to paddle with. I'm sure to get some real stares from the traditional folk if they look closely at what I have concocted. I also widened the blade to 3.75", 22" loom, 87" long and it came out to 30.4oz. I hit 5.5 on my GPS on flat water with it without pushing myself at all. I used it exclusively for 13 miles on Saturday and carried a spare Greenland on my fore-deck and the Ikelos on the rear. Paddles paddles everywhere.

Back to what I originally wanted to express is you could purchase a Carbon (2 piece) for the front deck which would leave you plenty of room for a deck bag (at 26oz from "Superior Kayak") and your spare bent shaft Ikelos on the rear deck. If your concerned with self rescue on the rear deck with the bent shaft, perhaps you could purchase a strait shaft for this back-up rear deck (flush fit).

I think I drank too much coffee this morning.

Doug

[Brian Nystrom]

When I mentioned to him that Greenland tended to be a lower stroke, (what do I know) he said Greenland racers use a very vertical stroke. Hummmmmm. I have adopted his school of thought but my paddling style is consistently evolving it seems.

Greenland paddles work at any angle, which is one of the beauties of the "stick". The low angle thing is an aberration of a Midwest-US school of paddling. If you watch films of Greenlanders, you'll see them paddling at a variety of angles, depending on their needs. For example, when moving quickly, a high angle is typically used, but when maneuvering while hunting, a very low angle is used to avoid spooking their quarry.

While it's certainly possible to use the same stroke with GPs and Euro paddles, that would not be optimum for either. A Euro is typically used with a stroke that starts with a plant near the feet and a strong pull at that point, with the stroke ending near the hip. A GP stroke usually starts closer to mid calf, has a gradual pull that builds through the stroke, then exits well past the hip. For best efficiency, the blade on a GP should be canted forward throughout the stroke.

If one was going to use one stroke for both paddle types, it seems to me that using a GP stroke with a Euro would be better than vice-versa, as reaching too far forward with a GP makes it impossible to maintain the cant in the blade.

[Michael_Crouse]

Hi Dan, from the look of that first pic I have to assume you made it to the Magdalen Islands?

North Water makes a product called paddle britches, this is an option for those of us who don't want to mess around with the PVC pipes. They can also be used to secure your primary paddle during a rescue.

[PeterB]

I find that I have consistently almost lost a split in surf because the water gets under the blade and lifts it off the deck and the migration begins. I have fitted some of my boats with a strap with fastek buckles that I cinch down onto 6the blades to pevent any movement; that is the most secure method I have used to date. I have to say, Rick's method seems the easiest but I would still feel inclined to use the strap to secure the blade end of the paddles.

It seems clear that there's no one way to stow spare paddles, so it comes down to personal preference based on trial and error, what works for each paddler.

I would say that on the west coast the energy of breaking waves is, on average, much greater than on the east coast, and there's much greater danger of losing a paddle in exactly the way you have described (water gets under the blade & lifts it, etc) : Leon Somme said that while paddling in the Queen Charlottes /Haida Gwai, he was struck by a wave that stripped off all of his deck bungees ( probably from force exerted on spare paddle which in turn pulled at the bungees). So,whether stowed fore or aft, on the West Coast there would be a premium on some system that securely fastens paddles but also allows you to access one if you need it.

If I were doing a long, committed solo trip, I would consider carrying both a spare euro paddle, stowed very securely wherever I pleased, and a greenland stick on the front deck. Spare Euro could be used if old faithful Euro is lost or broken, and Greenland can be used as combat spare,( grabbing & rolling if regular is lost in action), and might also come in handy at times covering miles in severe wind, or just for some variety. Could double as a tarp prop as well.

[EEL]

I would say that on the west coast the energy of breaking waves is, on average, much greater than on the east coast, and there's much greater danger of losing a paddle in exactly the way you have described (water gets under the blade & lifts it, etc) : Leon Somme said that while paddling in the Queen Charlottes /Haida Gwai, he was struck by a wave that stripped off all of his deck bungees ( probably from force exerted on spare paddle which in turn pulled at the bungees).

Which explains in part why he does not think highly of mounting a VHF in an exposed location on a PFD as is often done by NSPN folks. Which highlights why techniques from one area may not be so great in another.

Second Rick's suggestion about a knee tube. In my opinion there is much to be said for simplicity period and scarcity when it comes to stuff on the deck. Do the tubes for the splits and deck bags kick up water? Seems that could be a big pain day after day.

Ed Lawson

Who did not enjoy brushing snow off the car this morning

[NPSheehan]

Here is a good review of the North Water Paddle Britches.

Gear Review: North Water Paddle Britches by David Johnston

One thing to consider about this product is if it will fit well on the bow of your kayak without partially covering the front hatch or compass. I found with my Valley Avocet and Aquanaut which have large oval hatches that the britches did not appear to have enough room on the bow to allow the compass and oval hatch to be clear if installed as recommended. I haven't seen a kayak with a front oval hatch with these installed yet. Maybe someone who has them and also has front oval can shed some light on this. My other concern was their attachment to the perimeter lines and the potential stress on the RDFs if a big wave got under them. So far I haven't heard any horror stories with them. Peter's story from Leon Somme brings up that concern.

Neil

[jason]

Here is a good review of the North Water Paddle Britches.

Gear Review: North Water Paddle Britches by David Johnston

One thing to consider about this product is if it will fit well on the bow of your kayak without partially covering the front hatch or compass. I found with my Valley Avocet and Aquanaut which have large oval hatches that the britches did not appear to have enough room on the bow to allow the compass and oval hatch to be clear if installed as recommended. I haven't seen a kayak with a front oval hatch with these installed yet. Maybe someone who has them and also has front oval can shed some light on this. My other concern was their attachment to the perimeter lines and the potential stress on the RDFs if a big wave got under them. So far I haven't heard any horror stories with them. Peter's story from Leon Somme brings up that concern.

Neil

RDF's are fairly strong, we have halled loaded boats up onto no landing zones dozens of times using the deck lines without loosing a RDF. You do hear stories of people losing RDFs but I think that was from an old dark error when the NDK QC wasn't what it is now.

As for the britches, they will clear the compass but lay over top of the oval hatch (you need this to happen to allow your paddles to get the distance to get to the deck bungee lines. (Just like the tubes due).

-Jason

[jdkilroy]

Laura and I have them on a couple of the boats and they work very well at securing the shaft-end of the paddles. Securing the blade end of the paddles is still a concern in surf/breaking waves. Replacing a paddle shaft back into the Paddle Pants is actually easier than the rigid tubes.

The only significant disadvantage is that you would need a set of PaddlePants for each boat since they require removing your deck line to install.

I don't see any reason why they can't be mounted on the aft deck as well and I will be trying this soon.

Jon

[PeterB]

Laura and I have them on a couple of the boats and they work very well at securing the shaft-end of the paddles. Securing the blade end of the paddles is still a concern in surf/breaking waves. Replacing a paddle shaft back into the Paddle Pants is actually easier than the rigid tubes.

The only significant disadvantage is that you would need a set of PaddlePants for each boat since they require removing your deck line to install.

I don't see any reason why they can't be mounted on the aft deck as well and I will be trying this soon.

Jon

I've been told that the whooshing of water on the deck, into the open ends of the split paddle shafts, can exert force and move them: so either the paddle pants or the deck mounted tubes would prevent this: a good thing.

[thief]

an old instructor of mine was known for carrying his spare paddle inside the rear hatch when the boat was mostly empty....that way the deck was completely clear...his reasoning was also that he never went out without a second person - or more - and that person would be able to help get him the spare if needed...(also that he was good enough that he would never end up out of his boat)

that is not my choice though!!!

Lendal offers a 4 piece breakdown spare paddle for white water boats in a dry bag....would be interesting to see in person...

[Doug]

Lendal offers a 4 piece breakdown spare paddle for white water boats in a dry bag....would be interesting to see in person...

The only paddle I ever broke was a 4pc Lendal at a Symposium and they wouldn't stand behind it. Danny Mongo of Werner Paddles was there and gave me an Ikelos to use for the next 3 days without the slightest hassle.

[jason]

Lendal offers a 4 piece breakdown spare paddle for white water boats in a dry bag....would be interesting to see in person...

The only paddle I ever broke was a 4pc Lendal at a Symposium and they wouldn't stand behind it. Danny Mongo of Werner Paddles was there and gave me an Ikelos to use for the next 3 days without the slightest hassle.

I also recommend seeing Danny if your in the market for a new paddle he is a great person to talk to about Werner paddles (he doesn't sell them, but he represents the company).

I also don't think that Jon will have room to keep the paddle in his boat if he has camping gear and a few weeks worth of food in his boat.

-Jason