SOF vs. Modern Kayaks

[Gcosloy]

I know that the folks who paddle SOF traditional kayaks can roll most of us conventional kayakers under the table. However, I never see these spectacular rollers out on the open water in their SOFs I always assumed that SOFs were great in all conditions, not just rolling. Can anyone offer any insight into this or are all the SOFs paddling where I'm not?

[Brian Nystrom]

There is a lot of emphasis on rolling among the Greenland/SOF crowd, too much in my opinion. This trend seems to be especially strong on the east coast (paddlers in other parts of the country often refer to "east coast rollers"). Many people even build special "rolling boats". However, SOFs can be very good general purpose boats as well, if they're built for that purpose. I wouldn't use mine in rock gardens, though some people do, but beyond that, anything goes, really.

I suspect that the main reason you don't see more SOFs on the water is the same reason I don't use mine much: convenience. SOFs are typically low volume boats that can't carry much gear and what they can accommodate is not easy to access. You have to use float bags and all your gear needs to go into dry bags. In other words, they're somewhat of a pain to deal with, especially if you carry all the NSPN-recommended gear with you when you paddle. I just find that it's easier to take a glass boat with bulkheads and hatches that easily accommodate all my junk. Additionally, in cold weather/water situations, I like the extra safety of a hard-shell boat with watertight compartments (I typically keep float bags in my 'glass boats too, especially if any rock play or surfing are planned.).

OTOH, if you're the minimalist type who doesn't carry much more than you can fit in your PFD pockets, an SOF may be just the ticket for you.

Another reason is that it takes considerable time to adapt to the straight-legged paddling position in a traditionally-sized Greenland SOF. Many people simply can't adapt well enough to be comfortable for long hours in the boat. Rolling sessions where you're constantly moving around or getting in and out of the boat are not so much of a problem.

There is also the issue of perceived fragility. SOFs are more durable than most people think they are, but there is still a general belief that they are frail craft. If you build them ultra-light, they can be, but built in the range of 35-40# for an 18' boat, they're quite rugged.

The bottom line is that SOF boats require a certain level of commitment and compromises that plastic and glass boats don't. Apparently most people don't want to go down that path. Additionally, most SOF paddlers build their boats, which is a whole 'nuther level of commitment.

[Guest Nancy]

I know that the folks who paddle SOF traditional kayaks can roll most of us conventional kayakers under the table. However, I never see these spectacular rollers out on the open water in their SOFs I always assumed that SOFs were great in all conditions, not just rolling. Can anyone offer any insight into this or are all the SOFs paddling where I'm not?

SOFs are great open water kayaks. Most tend to weathercock but that can be fixed with a removable or a fixed skeg. One of my replicas has always been my "go to" kayak when things get rough and messy. A lot of us probably do not tend to go on group paddles with your club, but we are out there. Almost all of the SOF paddlers I know do take their SOF kayaks into rough water and surf. There are very few SOF kayak owners that I know who only roll. That is primarily what you will see at Walden, but that is what we are there for. We all own other kayaks too and use those when we need to carry more than noseplugs and a sandwich made on thin bread.

-Nancy

[EEL]

or are all the SOFs paddling where I'm not?

Don't know about all, but I know this SOF paddler has paddled my SOF where you were not paddling.

Not sure what open water means, but does Ragged I. on Casco Bay count?

Ed Lawson

[PeterB]

I know that the folks who paddle SOF traditional kayaks can roll most of us conventional kayakers under the table. However, I never see these spectacular rollers out on the open water in their SOFs I always assumed that SOFs were great in all conditions, not just rolling. Can anyone offer any insight into this or are all the SOFs paddling where I'm not?

It might be folly to look for generalizations regarding SOF traditional kayaks or their occupants, because most SOFs are made by hand and designed to fit one individual , and each boat is designed to fulfill the intended purpose for which it is built , whether that may be rolling, or journeying, hunting, rough water play, some mixture etc. it would be equal folly to generalize re: Greenland paddlers; some may roll in pools and quiet ponds and do little else, others may journey in big seas. In short , it's a kind of paddling that defies generalization, pretty undogmatic.

All the SOF'ers aren't paddling where you're not. Just a good number of them.

[tyson]

... a sandwich made on thin bread.

To add an other angle on this, there are a LOT more FG or plastic kayaks than SOF qajaqs out there. Percentage wise, how many plastic or FG kayakers go out in the rough stuff? I'm not too sure, but I'd suggest that 10% would be too high a guess. Most are recreational "intermediate paddlers" who never venture out of protected waters. Though there may not be many SOF's on open or rough waters in terms of absolute numbers, it may be that a higher percentage of them do it.

I've once taken a skin boat out in some rough choppy waters at Popham Beach. It was the best play boat I've experienced. The low volume was wonderful in the waves and chop. It surfed fabulously. The rockered, hard chine hull was exceptionally playful. It also happens that this was a Ken Taylor replica which is the direct grandfather of the Anas Acuta. ...as I understand it, there actually was a wood(?) boat between the KT and the AA.

Cheers!

Ty

[EEL]

...as I understand it, there actually was a wood(?) boat between the KT and the AA.

Yes. The story is that the survey made by Duncan W. of Taylor's boat was used as the starting point to design a S&G kayak in the UK. The result was a longer, a little wider, and a higher decked kayak. Supposedly many were made and rumor has it one hangs in a pub in Wales where paddlers frolic. At the dawn of commercial FG kayaks in the UK, the S&G version was used to develop the "plug" for the Anas Acuta. I believe if you look at the label in your AA you may find reference to the designer of the S&G kayak who was named Blackford as he licensed the design to Valley.

Ed Lawson

[Gcosloy]

It might be folly to look for generalizations regarding SOF traditional kayaks or their occupants, because most SOFs are made by hand and designed to fit one individual , and each boat is designed to fulfill the intended purpose for which it is built , whether that may be rolling, or journeying, hunting, rough water play, some mixture etc. it would be equal folly to generalize re: Greenland paddlers; some may roll in pools and quiet ponds and do little else, others may journey in big seas. In short , it's a kind of paddling that defies generalization, pretty undogmatic.

All the SOF'ers aren't paddling where you're not. Just a good number of them.

Au contraire! It is the height of being human to generalize, else we'd spend all our waking hours enumerating the particular events and objects in our daily existence. I have spent a lifetime seeing crows without seeing one that was not black. Logically it would be a mistake to declare from that evidence that "All crows are black." Nevertheless I would be very surprised to see a white one. Similarly I have never seen a SOF that wasn't busy rolling in fresh water. Does that mean I have concluded (generalized) that they are unsuitable for anything else? Not at all, else I would have never posed the question. My intent was not to provoke SOF paddlers into defending the general utility of their craft. On the other hand I think Brian's response seemed to answer the question in a way that was helpful.

[EEL]

I believe Peter made an excellent and important point which is central to understanding those who paddle SOF boats. While there are a wide variety of interests, it is the approach to teaching/learning how to use them and appreciation for the cultural aspects of these boats in terms of history, design, and use that distinguishes this aspect of the sport. Undogmatic is a good way to describe the essence of how SOF paddlers approach paddling.

To elaborate on Brian's post and to provide an alternative view, it is true that the legs straight paddling position requires a level of flexibility and core strength many lack and the storage space is less than a typical FG boat which are most often sized for multi day if not week touring as opposed to day paddles. However, once accustomed to the fit, a traditional SOF is a very comfy boat to paddle. In part due to the fact is is quiet and "soft" in the water. I have never had a problem keeping gear dry nor in carrying a standard kit in my SOF by using combo float/storage bags. Overall I find the ease of handling on and off the water makes a SOF much nicer and easier to use and to me it is more convenient overall than a FG boat. Which is why I use mine nearly all of the time. Of course coming out of one in rough water would be a very serious matter indeed.

Personally I do not believe it is easier to roll using a GP than a EP nor do I believe a traditional SOF is easier to roll than a good FG. However, they do make it fun to roll and to explore different ways of rolling so many find it an enjoyable activity just as some like to play in rocks or surf. You develop a different mindset about rolling it seems to me and then you tend to do it more since it is no longer a rescue skill or something that happens only when things go wrong.

Traditional Greenland hunting boats were optimized for hunting as done in the locations in which they were built. Those desired traits may or may not be remotely similar to the traits a modern recreational paddler would like. So you need to take them as they are. For example most West Greenland boats weathercock quite a bit in relatively light wind because that was a good thing when stalking game and setting up to throw a harpoon or shoot a rifle. They do not seem to "edge" the same way as most FG boats, and they can take a very hard "set" in a following sea if you don't stay ahead of them. On the other hand, they do very well when the wind is up, and Tyson's experience is the norm rather than the exception regarding rough water experience in one. To me the dominant trait of a SOF is it is "transparent" which is to say, you are not in a boat that is responding to the sea, you are responding to the sea. While that also means the boat is not keeping you upright, neither are you fighting the boat.

Ed Lawson

In case anyone wonders about traditional SOFs

[brambor]

Observing people in SOF boats I can't help but think they are using their head more than I do. It all appears effortless.

In a nutshell I think we all progress somewhat in our hobby. At certain point we get into a plastic kayak and if economics allow it we find ourselves in a FG kayak and if economics and storage space around the house allow it we find ourselves in a SOF kayak and keep exploring new ways to do things while maintaining having fun on the water.

All in all it's all just linear progress which could also go either way. One can buy an inexpensive used FOG and gradually move over to FG just to learn new ways...

The basic idea is to get on the water. Once you accomplish that you might start thinking --- can I go faster? (different boat), can I surf? (different boat), can I do rock play? (different boat), can I build a boat (ditto), can I try a hand roll? I can go on and on...

When I was in my 20's we went fishing with friends to the Moosehead Lake. We did not have any boats. No kidding - we bought inflatable sharks in a toy store, saddled it and went out of Lilly Bay towards Sugar Island thinking nothing of it.

But I think I get what Gene is trying to say especially after watching Doug's video's of Turner Wilson rolling repeatedly like a spindle in the YMCA pool...

[Brian Nystrom]

To elaborate on Brian's post and to provide an alternative view, it is true that the legs straight paddling position requires a level of flexibility and core strength many lack and the storage space is less than a typical FG boat which are most often sized for multi day if not week touring as opposed to day paddles. However, once accustomed to the fit, a traditional SOF is a very comfy boat to paddle.

I never meant to imply that SOFs were uncomfortable, just that the paddling position is not natural for most people and it takes a while to become accustomed to it. In my glass boats - which have ocean cockpits - I pad the deck down so I get the same type of fit I have in my SOF. I prefer the Greenland-style position.

In part due to the fact is is quiet and "soft" in the water.

That's true, traditionally-sized SOFs tend to punch through waves, rather than riding over them. The ride is much smoother, but also much wetter. Part of the the SOF experience is learning to accept the Greenlandic philosophy that paddling is wet sport and that you paddle in the water as much as on it. An SOF gives you an intimate feel for the water that you don't get in many commercial boats.

It's also pretty cool when a wave washes over the front deck and the whole thing submerges up to the cockpit. It's really unnerving the first time it happens, but once you see that it WILL come back to the surface, it's fun!

I have never had a problem keeping gear dry nor in carrying a standard kit in my SOF by using combo float/storage bags.

It's not a problem to keep your gear dry, it's just that an SOF forces you to use dry bags. I can't think of anything more convenient than simply piling your gear into a hatch, but I'm not going to argue with your personal preference.

Of course coming out of one in rough water would be a very serious matter indeed.

Yeah, it can be, especially if the boat doesn't have adequate flotation installed. Even with that, it's hard not to flood the cockpit when re-entering a low volume boat in rough water. There are good reasons why rolling goes hand-in-hand with SOFs.

Personally I do not believe it is easier to roll using a GP than a EP nor do I believe a traditional SOF is easier to roll than a good FG.

I have to disagree with you here, as in my experience, both the GP and a low volume SOF make a dramatic difference in rolling. If you can roll a glass boat with an EP, you'll find a GP makes it absolutely effortless. A low volume SOF will allow you to learn rolls that you wouldn't believe you could do. Once you have the technique down, you can typically learn to do the same thing in a good FG design, but the SOF makes learning advanced rolls much easier.

Traditional Greenland hunting boats were optimized for hunting as done in the locations in which they were built. Those desired traits may or may not be remotely similar to the traits a modern recreational paddler would like. So you need to take them as they are. For example most West Greenland boats weathercock quite a bit in relatively light wind because that was a good thing when stalking game and setting up to throw a harpoon or shoot a rifle.

It's true that Greenlanders often designed their boats to weathercock, but they also had strap-on skegs to correct that tendency when they didn't need it. A well-designed SOF can be just as neutral in wind as any other boat. It's all in how you build it, which is one of the beauties of these boats. You can design it to do anything you want.

They do not seem to "edge" the same way as most FG boats

That's largely due to the narrow beam and low volume. When you edge a wider commercial boat, one of the effects is that it lifts the ends out of the water somewhat, allowing the boat to pivot around the axis of the cockpit. The narrower the boat, the less pronounced this effect is.

A higher volume boat also simply has more hull to edge before the gunwale dips into the water. With low volume boats, once the aft deck gunwale is in the water, it's going to dig in and be harder to turn. My Pintail does this too and it can actually be easier to turn it by leaning it into the turn, like a bike. This was something that Nigel Foster pointed out to me.

I don't want anyone to think that I'm anti-SOF in any way. I've built three and may build more one of these days. I don't use the one I kept nearly as much as Ed does, for reasons that I've elaborated, but that doesn't mean I don't like it.

[rcohn]

Personally I do not believe .... nor do I believe a traditional SOF is easier to roll than a good FG. However, they do make it fun to roll and to explore different ways of rolling so many find it an enjoyable activity just as some like to play in rocks or surf.

If that is what you think, it simply indicates that either you have never been in a good rolling SOF or don't know enough about advanced rolling to feel the difference. I have never been in a commercial FG boat that came close to a SOF that is optimized for ease of rolling.

Ralph

[tyson]

If that is what you think, it simply indicates that either you have never been in a good rolling SOF or don't know enough about advanced rolling to feel the difference. I have never been in a commercial FG boat that came close to a SOF that is optimized for ease of rolling.

Ralph

Oh? This looks easy.

Actually, Ralph is correct. You can't beat a SOF who's volume has been optimized for the weight/size of a particular paddler and it isn't possible for a commercial vendor to have a mold for each person. In an AA, I can often do an onside hand roll. I've easily done off-side hand rolls in a SOF that sat lower in the water than the AA. I have found that some techniques are a lot easier to lean and perform in a SOF. Once learned, these techniques readily apply to many FG kayaks, but the SOF's are still easier and I doubt you'll ever see a commercial FG vendor that can custom fit you like a hand built SOF can.

Cheers!

Ty

[EEL]

If that is what you think, it simply indicates that either you have never been in a good rolling SOF or don't know enough about advanced rolling to feel the difference.

What I think is I will not participate in a jejune discussion about something so patently obvious. Of course it is easier to do the all the various Greenland rolls a SOF boat optimized for rolling. After all they are called "rolling" or "cheater" boats for a reason. I said "traditional boat" to indicate I was talking about a "normal" Greenland hunting boat. I should have specified that I was speaking of doing the "standard" extended GP roll and not the full pantheon of Greenland rolls.

This past weekend I got in a Tiderace with no seat and no outfitting after playing about in my traditional SOF. The Tiderace was absurdly easy to roll. My impression and YMMV is that it is just as easy if not easier to do the "standard"roll and other basic rolls such as the storm, butterfly and shotgun in it and say the Romany, Tempest 165, and of course the Tahe Greenland as in a typical "traditonal" SOF.

Ed Lawson

Who should have expected the Spanish Inquisition

[bob budd]

...uncomfortable...paddling position...

For those of us who suffer from sciatica, legs straight is simply not an option.

I believe the (substantially reduced) weight of the SOF boat is more compelling as we age.

Rolling with a GP is easier than a EP, if only because of the buoyancy (of the paddle). You can right the boat by simply reaching out to one side (especially with extended paddle) and snapping up. The substantially lower cost of the paddle also leaves money in your wallet for rolling lessons or more gear (even better).

SOF boats also seem to attract seals, which might be seem counterintuitive.

[rcohn]

What I think is I will not participate in a jejune discussion about something so patently obvious. Of course it is easier to do the all the various Greenland rolls a SOF boat optimized for rolling. After all they are called "rolling" or "cheater" boats for a reason. I said "traditional boat" to indicate I was talking about a "normal" Greenland hunting boat. I should have specified that I was speaking of doing the "standard" extended GP roll and not the full pantheon of Greenland rolls.

This past weekend I got in a Tiderace with no seat and no outfitting after playing about in my traditional SOF. The Tiderace was absurdly easy to roll. My impression and YMMV is that it is just as easy if not easier to do the "standard"roll and other basic rolls such as the storm, butterfly and shotgun in it and say the Romany, Tempest 165, and of course the Tahe Greenland as in a typical "traditonal" SOF.

Ed Lawson

Who should have expected the Spanish Inquisition

The standard Greenland roll is so ridiculously easy to do that it is hard to make much of a comparison. It only becomes difficult when boat contact is very poor or the rear deck prevents laybacks. Moving up to back-deck finishing hand rolls and forward finishing norsaq (or hand rolls if you’re really good) provides a much clearer comparison of ease of rolling.

What hunting qajaqs are you referring too? My replica of “Knud Rasmussen’s Kayak†http://good-times.webshots.com/album/563951706IAjPAn

circa 1920s-1930s from the lines in KOG plate 78. is a full sized Greenland Hunting qajaq actually on the larger size, and it is the best roller I’ve used. This is a South Greenland kayak, original in the Danish national Museum Catalog no. L.18.178.

The De Rijper, a hunting qajaq is reported to be an excellent roller by those who can fit in it. Replica of East Greenland KOG 87 is at Walden and a good roller. LC-148, "Elsie" semi-replica East Greenland kayak currently for sale is an excellent roller that I managed to squeeze into and found it nearly as nice as my Knud Rasmussen’s Kayak. The Goodnow replica also at Walden is excellent. The list goes on and on, so what hunting qajaqs are you referring to which roll as poorly as a commercial FG kayak?

As is so often the case what might seem obvious to an ill-informed outsider to an activity, is not nearly so obvious to the actual participants.

Ralph