The art of sculling

[brambor]

I had the peculiar pleasure to try some sculling last week. I had a great time, laughing at myself and overall enjoying the moments.

As a part of the demonstration the instructor showed me how he can lay down on the back deck and then slide their upper body into the water and manage to float, then also easily slide his back onto the kayak deck and recover to continue paddling. All of this without a life jacket!

We then tried the same with me. And I sank like a rock every time we tried it. I even had a lifejacket on, tried it in his boat, tried it in my boat, tried it with his paddle, tried it with my paddle ... it appeared that he was holding the boat with all his might to keep me from going under --- basically the failure could be only blamed on my lack of technique or perhaps on my body build. 6' 230 with thick legs.

I have the chance to try the practice again.

Is there anything I can do on my own to be better prepared for next time?

[Suz]

I had the peculiar pleasure to try some sculling last week. I had a great time, laughing at myself and overall enjoying the moments.

As a part of the demonstration the instructor showed me how he can lay down on the back deck and then slide their upper body into the water and manage to float, then also easily slide his back onto the kayak deck and recover to continue paddling. All of this without a life jacket!

We then tried the same with me. And I sank like a rock every time we tried it. I even had a lifejacket on, tried it in his boat, tried it in my boat, tried it with his paddle, tried it with my paddle ... it appeared that he was holding the boat with all his might to keep me from going under --- basically the failure could be only blamed on my lack of technique or perhaps on my body build. 6' 230 with thick legs.

I have the chance to try the practice again.

Is there anything I can do on my own to be better prepared for next time?

The secret is that it is all in the legs. You can "slip" into the water as your instructor does or you can simply scull down.

If you imagine that at one point, your upper leg is holding the boat up, as soon as you pass your primary stability, you need to switch legs and while lying in the water, your lower leg is now holding you up. BUT it isn't just your thigh, it is your whole side of the body that is crunching to hold you up. Of course any help you can get from your blade is good too.

Lifejacket or not, it doesn't really matter. This is easier in some boats than others but once you have the technique, it carries over to other boats.

Suz

[brambor]

Thanks Suz,

I will try it with my other boat too and thanks for the tip about the legs.

The secret is that it is all in the legs. You can "slip" into the water as your instructor does or you can simply scull down.

If you imagine that at one point, your upper leg is holding the boat up, as soon as you pass your primary stability, you need to switch legs and while lying in the water, your lower leg is now holding you up. BUT it isn't just your thigh, it is your whole side of the body that is crunching to hold you up. Of course any help you can get from your blade is good too.

Lifejacket or not, it doesn't really matter. This is easier in some boats than others but once you have the technique, it carries over to other boats.

Suz

[PeterB]

Thanks Suz,

I will try it with my other boat too and thanks for the tip about the legs.

Don't get discouraged! Keep at it, and at some point (sooner for some, later for others) it will click.

[florriej]

The secret is that it is all in the legs. You can "slip" into the water as your instructor does or you can simply scull down.

If you imagine that at one point, your upper leg is holding the boat up, as soon as you pass your primary stability, you need to switch legs and while lying in the water, your lower leg is now holding you up. BUT it isn't just your thigh, it is your whole side of the body that is crunching to hold you up. Of course any help you can get from your blade is good too.

Lifejacket or not, it doesn't really matter. This is easier in some boats than others but once you have the technique, it carries over to other boats.

Suz

Suz, thanks for revealing the "secret"; it's so interesting to read about the inner workings of these moves. You must need really good firm contact between knee/leg and boat. I think I might be too loose. I've also heard the advice to practice using a paddle float. Florrie

[Brian Nystrom]

Suz, thanks for revealing the "secret"; it's so interesting to read about the inner workings of these moves. You must need really good firm contact between knee/leg and boat. I think I might be too loose. I've also heard the advice to practice using a paddle float. Florrie

I have a somewhat different take on this. The key to being able to scull/balance brace easily is in arching your back and keeping the hull as flat on the water as possible. You have to actively rotate the boat away from you, since if you allow the boat to roll toward you, it will push you under. The idea is for the boat to support as much of your weight as possible (basically from the hips down). You need to keep your head back as well (flat to the water), as lifting it will cause you to sink. If you look at photos of people balance bracing, you'll see that the boat is relatively flat on the water, their back is arched and their face is just above the water.

That said, the boat and how it fits your body are critical components. The best situation is a boat with a low aft deck and a relatively wide coaming at the hips, both of which help you to keep your body as low to the water as possible.

[Suz]

I have a somewhat different take on this. The key to being able to scull/balance brace easily is in arching your back and keeping the hull as flat on the water as possible. You have to actively rotate the boat away from you, since if you allow the boat to roll toward you, it will push you under. The idea is for the boat to support as much of your weight as possible (basically from the hips down). You need to keep your head back as well (flat to the water), as lifting it will cause you to sink. If you look at photos of people balance bracing, you'll see that the boat is relatively flat on the water, their back is arched and their face is just above the water.

That said, the boat and how it fits your body are critical components. The best situation is a boat with a low aft deck and a relatively wide coaming at the hips, both of which help you to keep your body as low to the water as possible.

Not so different take really Brian. In order to get the hull flat, you need to actively rotate the boat away OR actively pull up on the lower leg to get the boat into position. I think that if you give it a try, you will find that you are doing much the same thing.

I think that you may also be pushing down on the far or upper leg. Although you can do that, I find it counter productive as it is hard (impossible) to use the two sides of your body to do different things along with sculling for support. Of course if you are talking about balance bracing, that is a different situation.

Suz

[nau]

Additional tips I found useful:

(boat has to be tilted away from you as much as possible - knee and back work together)

- to make sure that it is your bottom knee that is pushing up on the hull and not your foot on the footpeg, take both feet off the footpegs. Later when you put them back on, make sure you keep the "knee only" action (tip from Henry Davies);

- arch your back as much as you can (and more), shoulders flat on the water - think of extending as far away from the boat as you can - the twisting required to have the shoulders flat also helps the knee action;

- keeping your head in the water:

-- think of "keeping your eyebrows in the water" (an Helen Wilson tip). Nose can be out!

-- keep your neck fully relaxed, head loose in the water - if your neck tenses, your head will come up too early

- paddle: relax arm and hand and let it float up to surface so blades settle parallel to water (from John McConnell). Then even a gentle wrist movement will add support (especially with a Greenland paddle - tip Roy Martin)

Good practice!

[brambor]

After my first try I now find sculling slightly intimidating to do it again. I think I might wait for a pool session.

Is there a preferred order of competency techniques to learn?

For example:

1. sculling

2. greenland roll

3. euro roll ... and so on ?

Additional tips I found useful:

(boat has to be tilted away from you as much as possible - knee and back work together)

- to make sure that it is your bottom knee that is pushing up on the hull and not your foot on the footpeg, take both feet off the footpegs. Later when you put them back on, make sure you keep the "knee only" action (tip from Henry Davies);

- arch your back as much as you can (and more), shoulders flat on the water - think of extending as far away from the boat as you can - the twisting required to have the shoulders flat also helps the knee action;

- keeping your head in the water:

-- think of "keeping your eyebrows in the water" (an Helen Wilson tip). Nose can be out!

-- keep your neck fully relaxed, head loose in the water - if your neck tenses, your head will come up too early

- paddle: relax arm and hand and let it float up to surface so blades settle parallel to water (from John McConnell). Then even a gentle wrist movement will add support (especially with a Greenland paddle - tip Roy Martin)

Good practice!

[Brian Nystrom]

After my first try I now find sculling slightly intimidating to do it again. I think I might wait for a pool session.

Is there a preferred order of competency techniques to learn?

For example:

1. sculling

2. greenland roll

3. euro roll ... and so on ?

Sculling and bracing techniques are prerequisites for learning to roll ("gateway skills"), so learn them first. I suggest learning low bracing, high bracing, deep high bracing (capsize until you're submerged on your side, then brace back up), sculling and deep sculling (sculling while laying on the surface of the water) before you attempt to roll. Essentially, what you're trying to do is gradually learn to recover from deeper and deeper capsizes, which ultimately is the second half of a roll. The first half, capsize and setup is pretty easy.

Sculling techniques can vary dramatically, as standard Euro technique is designed to keep you out of the water using short, fast, choppy strokes, whereas Greenland sculling is always done while laying on the water, either on your back or chest, using longer, slower, smooth strokes.

A standard Greenland roll is really little different than a Palawta (sp?) roll or extended paddle roll with a Euro paddle. This is arguably the easiest roll to learn, as it's not strenuous and doesn't require precise timing or dramatic hip action.

[brambor]

Thanks Brian,

I think my braces are relatively ok except for the deep brace where the boat is on the side. I'm hoping to get into the rest of this in pool sessions or on an occassional paddle with friends.

btw: It is Pawlatta. I did a quick lookup and found that:

The Pawlata Eskimo roll is the classic paddle roll, a slow motion sweep roll using an extended paddle. It is named after it's Austrian inventor Hans Pawlata, probably the first non-Eskimo paddler to roll a kayak. He taught himself to roll based on historical descriptions of artic explorers back in 1927.

Sculling and bracing techniques are prerequisites for learning to roll ("gateway skills"), so learn them first. I suggest learning low bracing, high bracing, deep high bracing (capsize until you're submerged on your side, then brace back up), sculling and deep sculling (sculling while laying on the surface of the water) before you attempt to roll. Essentially, what you're trying to do is gradually learn to recover from deeper and deeper capsizes, which ultimately is the second half of a roll. The first half, capsize and setup is pretty easy.

Sculling techniques can vary dramatically, as standard Euro technique is designed to keep you out of the water using short, fast, choppy strokes, whereas Greenland sculling is always done while laying on the water, either on your back or chest, using longer, slower, smooth strokes.

A standard Greenland roll is really little different than a Palawta (sp?) roll or extended paddle roll with a Euro paddle. This is arguably the easiest roll to learn, as it's not strenuous and doesn't require precise timing or dramatic hip action.

[EEL]

You must need really good firm contact between knee/leg and boat. I think I might be too loose. I've also heard the advice to practice using a paddle float.

There are so many variables in terms of boats, bodies, and blades that I hesitate to say anything let alone generalizations, but to me having a loose fit in a boat is much better than a tight fit for sculling and even rolling. I can't say I am even aware of applying force with my thighs on the boat . I like a loose fit as it allows me to rotate my torso/hips to get my back nearly flat in the water and balance the boat by arching the back. For me using a GP for sculling is much easier as the EP feels awkward and not the right tool.

Having said that, I also mostly paddle low volume boats with OCs and that makes a difference since you are connected without much effort or thought to the point the boat is transparent. In the typical keyhole touring "barge" I find more effort is needed to keep it angled away and in balance.

Ultimately, I believe the one common factor is being able to relax, be supple, and slow down.

Ed Lawson

[EEL]

I can't say I am even aware of applying force with my thighs on the boat .

Recently I spent a fair bit of time floating in a balance brace rethinking this. While I was making no effort to apply any force with my legs and in fact they were resting free. However, I felt my thigh pressing against the boat which no doubt was helping to keep it from going vertical and rolling over.

It seemed the force was caused by my rotating the torso in an attempt to get my shoulders flat in the water. As I twisted the body, the lower leg inherently pressed against the boat. If I rotated less the force went away and the boat started to come over. So to the extent my comments about loose fit might be seen as contrary to Suz's comment, "while lying in the water, your lower leg is now holding you up. BUT it isn't just your thigh, it is your whole side of the body that is crunching to hold you up." I think she correctly described what is happening.

Ed Lawson

[Nancy Hill]

It seemed the force was caused by my rotating the torso in an attempt to get my shoulders flat in the water. As I twisted the body, the lower leg inherently pressed against the boat. If I rotated less the force went away and the boat started to come over. So to the extent my comments about loose fit might be seen as contrary to Suz's comment, "while lying in the water, your lower leg is now holding you up. BUT it isn't just your thigh, it is your whole side of the body that is crunching to hold you up." I think she correctly described what is happening.

Ed Lawson

I agree with Ed, that it is the twisting of your torso to get your shoulders flat in the water that causes your lower/water-side thigh to press against the masik or thigh brace. The key thing here is to have your lower body as low in the water as your kayak will allow. A wide coaming helps, and the ability to let your hips drop to the lower side of the kayak helps (it may seem counter-intuitive, but hip padding is not a good thing in this case). Some kayaks are just about impossible to balance brace and scull because they do not let you get your lower body into the water. To illustrate: Imagine floating in the water on your back (no kayak) with your legs twisted to one side and then imagine someone lifting your hips out of the water. Your head and shoulders will sink!

If you do not have good thigh (or knee if that is all you have) contact with the kayak, you can not hold it away from you at an angle. The arching of your back with shoulders flat in the water is key, but thigh contact is essential if you want control over the kayak. I do not know what Suz means by "crunching one side of the body". Everything is extended and the legs can remain completely relaxed (even though you will feel pressure against the thigh brace due to your body position).

A 6', 230# guy will certainly be at a disadvantage, unless he has a low center of gravity. It helps to learn in a kayak that is easy to brace and scull because it will tell you what the correct position feels like. It is then likely that the skill will transfer to other kayaks. Another issue might be flexibility. If you can't get both shoulders in the water with your back arched you can forget about getting into a balance brace position.

I know this was about sculling, but it is good to learn the balance brace position as a position to scull from. It will make everything else easier once that position is understood and mastered.

-Nancy

[Suz]

I agree with Ed, that it is the twisting of your torso to get your shoulders flat in the water that causes your lower/water-side thigh to press against the masik or thigh brace. The key thing here is to have your lower body as low in the water as your kayak will allow. A wide coaming helps, and the ability to let your hips drop to the lower side of the kayak helps (it may seem counter-intuitive, but hip padding is not a good thing in this case). Some kayaks are just about impossible to balance brace and scull because they do not let you get your lower body into the water. To illustrate: Imagine floating in the water on your back (no kayak) with your legs twisted to one side and then imagine someone lifting your hips out of the water. Your head and shoulders will sink!

If you do not have good thigh (or knee if that is all you have) contact with the kayak, you can not hold it away from you at an angle. The arching of your back with shoulders flat in the water is key, but thigh contact is essential if you want control over the kayak. I do not know what Suz means by "crunching one side of the body". Everything is extended and the legs can remain completely relaxed (even though you will feel pressure against the thigh brace due to your body position).

A 6', 230# guy will certainly be at a disadvantage, unless he has a low center of gravity. It helps to learn in a kayak that is easy to brace and scull because it will tell you what the correct position feels like. It is then likely that the skill will transfer to other kayaks. Another issue might be flexibility. If you can't get both shoulders in the water with your back arched you can forget about getting into a balance brace position.

I know this was about sculling, but it is good to learn the balance brace position as a position to scull from. It will make everything else easier once that position is understood and mastered.

-Nancy

What BOTH Nancy and Ed are doing are balance bracing and not sculling for support. Once you are floating in the water and presenting your shoulders flat to the surface, this changes your body position in the boat.

So, Nancy and Ed - (who are using GP rather than Euro's that provide much more buoyancy, just having it in the hand) put away the GP and do this with a Euro blade ONLY to the point where you are using the blade to hold yourself up. Move the blade in long even strokes (not choppy as most do when new to this). The longer the stroke, the more support you will get from the blade as you have no support when the blade changes direction - front and back quadrants.

In order to still use your paddle, you can not be lying on your back in the water floating. You will have your body in the same position as for a C to C roll. Just try it rather than simply envisioning it.

Suz

PS - I am away for a few days and won't be able to respond.

[Nancy Hill]

What BOTH Nancy and Ed are doing are balance bracing and not sculling for support. Once you are floating in the water and presenting your shoulders flat to the surface, this changes your body position in the boat.

So, Nancy and Ed - (who are using GP rather than Euro's that provide much more buoyancy, just having it in the hand) put away the GP and do this with a Euro blade ONLY to the point where you are using the blade to hold yourself up. Move the blade in long even strokes (not choppy as most do when new to this). The longer the stroke, the more support you will get from the blade as you have no support when the blade changes direction - front and back quadrants.

In order to still use your paddle, you can not be lying on your back in the water floating. You will have your body in the same position as for a C to C roll. Just try it rather than simply envisioning it.

Suz

PS - I am away for a few days and won't be able to respond.

First, let me say that both Ed and I are able to balance brace by getting into the proper position. It is not quite as simple as just lying in the water, although the right kayak helps. For me, it was achieved after a lot of practice sculling and trying to rely less and less on the paddle over time.

Yes, Suz is right, floating with your back arched does change your body position in the kayak, and it changes it in a positive way. It forces your water-side thigh to be in contact with your thigh brace/masik while offering more flotation. She is also correct in assuming I am using a GP. However, sculling from a position that offers maximum flotation is much better than trying to scull from any other position, and "floating" on your back does that (as does sculling on your chest with a recovery on your front deck). You can use a euro or GP, just make sure you always have a climbing angle on the blade when it is moving through the water. If the blade dives (any blade), you will follow it down. Granted, a GP is more forgiving and is more buoyant, but it does not guarantee success. I have many kayaks and there are a few that I can not balance brace, but I can scull for support in them. Once I lose the contact with my thigh brace, it is all over and the kayak turns over on me. It is easier to have good contact with the thigh brace/masik, if your back is flat on the water and arched. If you round your back to pull you leg in, you will sink. You need to be in a kayak that allows you to have this good thigh contact.

I am not just envisioning this, as I have a lot of experience in sculling for support (since it took me so long to learn to balance brace!). Another advantage of lying on your back is that your nose is out of the water and you can breathe. If you are on your side, it is tempting to keep your head up out of the water to breathe, and that will also doom you to failure.

I have the advantage of learning a lot of these skills in a low volume kayak with a GP which makes everything easier. What it has taught me is that body position is paramount to success and repeatability. I can verify this by how much my skills have improved in my sea kayak. I believe that depending on the paddle too much is a reason so many people fail their scull or roll. If body position is off, you can only make up for so much by depending on the paddle.

-Nancy

[Brian Nystrom]

One can obviously scull from the C-C recovery position, but frankly, that's doing things the hard way. It's much easier to turn your back to the water and gain some buoyancy. If I know I'm going to capsize, I turn my back to the water as I go over. When it hits, it momentarily stops the capsize and I can immediately start sculling slowly for support while lying comfortably on the surface of the water. I have even stayed in that position in rough water a few times to see what happens and it's an incredibly stable position even in waves, as long as you keep your back to the water and arched.

I think this debate really comes down to a fundamental difference in philosophy between the Greenland school and the Euro school (as taught by the ACA and BCU). The Euro school is focused on keeping the paddler OUT of the water, a practice that probably has its root in whitewater paddling, where staying upright is critical to safety, as there are all manner of nasties lurking just below the surface. That's why it's commonly referred to as a "sculling brace". Greenland paddling is all about working WITH the water as effortlessly as possible, which definitely has its roots in hunting, where avoiding excessive exertion and potential exhaustion or injuries from it were paramount for survival. There is little to fear from the water on the open sea, so staying out of it simply isn't as critical as conserving energy. In Greenland parlance, this is always referred to as "sculling for support", never as a brace.

In the end, it really comes down to the individual paddler deciding which method works best for them for a particular situation. For example, I would undoubtedly use the technique I describe above on open water. However, if I was playing in a rock garden, I'd be much more inclined to try to stay out of the water, for obvious reasons. Perhaps a good determining criteria for me would be whether I'm wearing a helmet or not, or SHOULD be wearing one.

Both methods have their place and they're definitely not mutually exclusive.

[Pintail]

Suzanne, Nancy and Brian all make very good points: I personally think that anyone trying to separate "Greenland" style from "Euro" style is guilty of narrowing their total experience on the water. It has, in the past, been amusing to some to poke jabs at those going over to "the dark side"; but this is futile and somewhat silly.

Even BCU nowadays acknowledges Greenland technique as having its rightful place -- there is someone who attained his 5* Open Sea award, using a Greenland paddle. So no more of this, please. We have much of value to learn from the Greenlanders.

ANYONE will benefit from trying out and playing with a Greenland paddle and there are several paddlers whom I know that carry one as a spare on the for'ard deck. Once a person tries it out, they find that there <is> that added buoyancy and therefore certain manoevres become easier -- like the balance brace and sculling for support (even having a nap, lying <on> the paddle, whilst in the balance-braced position, according to one Inuit hunter!)

I encourage anyone interested to try it out (The rabble at Walden Pond are <known> for their hospitality and enthusiasm and will undoubtedly offer assistance to any paddler turning up at their sessions -- perhaps we should ask them to entertain us once again?)

A low-volume boat is preferable for practising in and a Greenland paddle is not difficult to get hold of: once you start playing around, things sort themselves out. I myself found, long ago, that rolling with a Greenland paddle made me less reliant on bodily effort and any tendency to pull hard on the paddle -- it taught me to employ my torso-rotation (call it "hip snap", if you must: I think that phrase is misguiding), which is much easier on your anatomy!

Excuse this slight hi-jack; but I think it makes sense to have brought it up here...

[EEL]

What BOTH Nancy and Ed are doing are balance bracing and not sculling for support. ... You will have your body in the same position as for a C to C roll. Just try it rather than simply envisioning it.

This past weekend I heard two highly regarded coaches give diametrically opposed opinions concerning a certain rescue technique and saw two different low brace techniques taught (believe it was tailored to skill of students) so it is only normal for there to be differences of opinion about this stuff. However I think my imprecision in writing caused an unintended issue here.

I made an assumption the original question involved a situation using a GP to do a sculling brace and my responses were in that context only. To be clear, I distinguish between sculling for support where your body is basically out of the water and you are looking to "hang" until things get sorted out, a sculling brace which is where you are in the water and sculling with the paddle, a static brace where you have a paddle in your hand, but it is stationary, and the balance brace where you in the water without a paddle.

While one paddle makes some of these easier than the other and vice versa, I have often done all three with both Euro and GP when playing about in my boat. I agree that the sculling for support position is quite different from a sculling brace position and my feet and legs are doing very different things during each.

I want to end by thanking Sir Christopher for putting things in proper perspective and recounting that at last weekend's Symposium that I had a GP was irrelevant and a total non issue. Also, one BCU coach asked the Greenland coach to talk to his group during their break about Greenland rolling and demo some rolls for them.

Which by the way was something to see as she did a logical five minute presentation and progressed from a standard Greenland roll to the straightjacket roll.

Ed Lawson

[tyson]

I encourage anyone interested to try it out (The rabble at Walden Pond are <known> for their hospitality and enthusiasm and will undoubtedly offer assistance to any paddler turning up at their sessions -- perhaps we should ask them to entertain us once again?)

My VERY limited experience is that they pretty much ask strangers to go away. I found no enthusiastic hospitality and was left with the feeling of a closed, private club. Emilie and I have been driving up to Maine to scratch the Greenland itch we've been developing.

[Brian Nystrom]

My VERY limited experience is that they pretty much ask strangers to go away. I found no enthusiastic hospitality and was left with the feeling of a closed, private club. Emilie and I have been driving up to Maine to scratch the Greenland itch we've been developing.

As with any organization, there are differences in personalities among them and it's not always the same people there every session. I would strongly suggest that you give it another try. Just approach them and introduce yourself as folks who are interested in learning Greenland skills. Even if you already did that, give it another shot. While there may be an air of elitism to some of the people there, I've always found them to be a very welcoming organization.

[rcohn]

My VERY limited experience is that they pretty much ask strangers to go away. I found no enthusiastic hospitality and was left with the feeling of a closed, private club. Emilie and I have been driving up to Maine to scratch the Greenland itch we've been developing.

The only contact I'm aware of was from the following post on the meet up board

Anyone for Sunday Sept 6th?

by emilie » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:19 pm

I got pointed in your guys direction to learn some more Greenland rolls, but the Friday evening sessions don't quite fit our schedule. So I was wondering if anyone would be up for a session this sunday?

Also between my fiance and I, we have one Greenland paddle (his) and no boats suitable for rolling, so we will need to borrow boats and a paddle.

Emilie

You didn't introduce yourselves, we have no clue who you might be. You requested a different day than our usual session and said you could bring one paddle expecting that we would supply qajaqs and all other necessary gear. One member sent you an email suggesting that you might want to reword your post and that apparently was the last we heard from you until now with this post attacking our group. Just who is the unfriendly one here?

Ralph

[brambor]

This thread is really giving me a lot of great information and I want to thank all of those who answered (and please continue this conversation). Yesterday I found about a rolling session in local YMCA. I will be enrollingintorolling and hope it will bring good things to me.

b

The only contact I'm aware of was from the following post on the meet up board

You didn't introduce yourselves, we have no clue who you might be. You requested a different day than our usual session and said you could bring one paddle expecting that we would supply qajaqs and all other necessary gear. One member sent you an email suggesting that you might want to reword your post and that apparently was the last we heard from you until now with this post attacking our group. Just who is the unfriendly one here?

Ralph

[tyson]

The only contact I'm aware of was from the following post on the meet up board

You didn't introduce yourselves, we have no clue who you might be. You requested a different day than our usual session and said you could bring one paddle expecting that we would supply qajaqs and all other necessary gear. One member sent you an email suggesting that you might want to reword your post and that apparently was the last we heard from you until now with this post attacking our group. Just who is the unfriendly one here?

Ralph

I'm not quite sure how to respond. That was _not_ the last that was heard from us so I'd appreciate you not claiming it was. Though the private chastising we received did declare that we failed to ask using exactly the correct phrases and providing exactly the correct information, it did not suggest that we were expected to go reword our original post if we wanted constructive engagement. We did our best to reply; privately as that was the manner we were contacted. Since you also know about the message we received, it apparently wasn't all that private. Why wasn't the discussion held publicly? Had you done so, others would then have the opportunity to learn from our mistakes. If need be I can provide considerably more information in substantial detail, but I don't expect that would improve my balance brace.

Let me try to start over:

A very nice gentleman we met in Maine had set some expectations of a very friendly group that loves to introduce interested people to Greenland practices. If this is true, we'd still love the chance to be a part of your community.

Ty

[Nancy Hill]

Though the private chastising we received did declare that we failed to ask using exactly the correct phrases and providing exactly the correct information, it did not suggest that we were expected to go reword our original post if we wanted constructive engagement.

Ty

I was the person who sent Emilie a private message and I did suggest that she reword her post to avoid making a wrong impression. I sent what I thought to be a cordial, welcoming message, which asked her to tell us more about herself and fiancé and included the phrase:

"Your post pretty much boils down to - Hi, my fiancé and I want to come to Walden for some free rolling lessons, please bring kayaks and a paddle for us. You might want to reword that."

The reason I suggested she re-word her original post was that she had put off some people who thought she had been too forward in her request. My thought was if she told us more about herself and her fiancé, people would be more likely to reach out to them. The suggestion was intended to be helpful and the rest of my message was intended to be friendly.

Following that, I wrote:

"I want to add that we do welcome and look forward to meeting more people who are interested in Greenland-style paddling. Part of the mission of our society is to mentor those who have the desire to learn more about Greenland kayaking. We do look forward to meeting you and your fiancé. Even if we do not have an extra kayak for you, you might want to join us anyway, as you can still learn things about Greenland-style paddling and rolling in your own kayaks."

In my second and last message I wrote (based on Emilie's prior message in which she thought that extra kayaks were usually available):

"Kayaks are not generally available, but if we know a person is coming who would like to try a Greenland kayak, we do make an effort to bring an extra as long as we know something about the person, including weight and height. If you see a post for a meet up that fits with your schedule you may want to inquire about the availability of a loaner kayak and in that post, tell everyone a little more about yourself. So far, nothing is planned for this weekend, but that could change."

None of us had any idea who she was. It seemed to me and to others that saw her post on the Walden site that she was being presumptuous, especially since no one knew who she was.

All members of Walden Qajaq Society have spent countless hours working with countless people who wish to learn more about Greenland kayaking. We have asked for nothing in return other than getting some enjoyment out of watching others come to realize the benefits and fun of learning Greenland rolling and skills.

It is hurtful to read Tyson's comments about our group, based on private messages from me to Emilie that were meant to be welcoming and friendly. As far as I know, neither Emilie nor Tyson has ever met any of the regular Walden Qajaq Society members. It is sad to think that they may not get to enjoy the camaraderie of others with a similar interest so close to home.

I know this is not in keeping with the original subject. I apologize. I hate to think that the Walden Qajaq Society’s reputation would be damaged by 2 private emails that I sent to Emilie that were intended to be helpful and friendly.

-Nancy Hill