cockpit fit

[florriej]

In a pool session this winter, when trying the re-enter and roll, I kept floating out of my cockpit, which seemed to indicate too loose a fit between hips and sides of seat. My hips don't touch the sides of my seat, and I couldn't get the leverage I needed to right the boat with my hips (could be some technique was lacking there too!). I'm thinking this might have an impact on my overall steering of the boat also.

I thought I would put a couple of those self-stick wedge shaped foam pads in at the sides. However, in a workshop with Ben Lowry he said hips should be touching the sides of the boat, but not tight. He also indicated that torso rotation can include the butt, more movement than I had previously realized.

So currently I'm thinking I'll just put a couple of flat foam pads in at the sides of my seat. However, I am wondering if there are other implications within this question that I should consider. How tight are people generally within their cockpit seat and what did you do to get the right fit? Any input, suggestions or thoughts would be welcome.

Thanks - Florrie (Impex Montauk)

[tyson]

White water kayakers like to be very tight. "Forward stroke" kayakers like to be very loose. I started out by outfitting my boat so that my hips where quite tight. I did this in the context of learning to roll and it helped.

Since I've learned to roll, I've focused a bit more on comfort, convenience and forward stroke. I've also loosened up my hip pads considerably and I've brought my knees in closer together.

I an also now able to roll a boat with considerable extra space around my hips. flopping around would be a fair description. I hold my self in my boat with my knees or thighs under the combing.

If you want to shim up tight while learning to roll, that might be useful. However, the close but not tight suggestion will probably work better for real sea kayaking. Also, you will probably find tight hip pads difficult to get into for a re-entry and roll. Thighs under the combing (or masik) are a more effective solution for that.

Cheers!

Ty

[Phil Allen]

Hi Florrie-

I added 1/4 inch minicell padding to the drops of my fiberglass seat (Impex Currituck), which allows me a little slop side to side, but easy connection should I need it. It doesn't fit snugly enough to prevent hip rotation. Not falling out of your boat when you're upside down is more about connections at the knees in my experience. Being able to drive the knee into the hull/brace without it slipping or otherwise disconnecting is important for rolling and other things. Depending on your size, paddling style and comfort level, you might want to add foam to the thigh/knee braces and or make an actually foam pad "hook" to give better lateral connection.

Phil

[florriej]

Thanks you guys - It sounds like I need to pay more attention to knees/thighs when it somes to rolling the boat around, it's not all hip. I guess "hip-flick" would be more accurate as "lower-body-flick", but not as catchy. I will skip the wedge shaped blocks in favor of foam pads. Thanks again for the input! Florrie

[Phil Allen]

Florrie-

Just to be clear, the righting move in the roll is still in the hips (i.e. the hip snap), but it's conveyed to the boat through your hip, your knee and foot.

Phil

[florriej]

Florrie-

Just to be clear, the righting move in the roll is still in the hips (i.e. the hip snap), but it's conveyed to the boat through your hip, your knee and foot.

Phil

Okay - thanks for the clarification Phil! Florrie

[Bob C]

Hi Florrie,

There seems to be a mistaken belief that really tight in the cockpit and hips in helps a roll. I've taken a Greenland rolling courses where this was necessary for a skin-on-frame kayak but I don't do it in my sea kayaks or whitewater boat.

In a sea kayak, you want enough space around your hips to be able to shift your butt and thus your weight left or right as needed for edging while wearing a drysuit or whatever your maximum amount of clothing is.

The critical bit of padding is that which allows you to grip the cockpit with your knees and thighs when needed. Some boats have this built in (the Wilderness Systems Tempest with its "white water outfitting", for instance) and others (most British boats, for example) require that you add your own padding. I prefer a loose fit and have enough padding in my boats that I can hold myself in while rolling. I also keep my foot pegs loose enough to relax my legs as needed to keep the circulation going.

When padding the cockpit to keep yourself from falling out during a roll, you want to build up enough of a hook on the inside (an extra layer, thickness to suit) so you can grip the cockpit comfortably without being pinned in. (Sorry, I know I should have added a sketch.) The padding will look something like half of the letter "C" facing down, with the downward curve towards the center of the kayak.

Good Luck!

Bob

[bob budd]

Unless you are looking to do long expeditions, race, etc. - i.e. maximum performance the issue is more practical than technical.

First and foremost you need to be comfortable in your boat. If its too tight you won't be. If its way too loose you may start to feel unstable in the boat because you have insufficient contact/control. My first two primary boats were beamier than our latest boat, the Force 4. At first the Force 4 felt confining, now I love it and prefer the assurance of the firm contact with the boat. Unless you're glued into your cockpit I don't see that fit is much of an issue. You can rotate at the waste and pump with your legs in any cockpit. Perhaps if your seat is tight about your thighs it might reduce rotation. I remember rolling Walter's Assateaque. While sweeping I would slide across/around in the seat but I still came up every time. I'd suggest you look for a boat that is as tight as is comfortable and pad as needed to provide a little wiggle room.

[Bob C]

Hi Florrie,

Here's a picture of my WW boat showing the outfitting. There's just enough glued-in padding on the hips to keep me from sliding around. You can see how the thigh hooks curve so I can hold myself in the boat while rolling. You don't need this much of a hook in a sea kayak but it shows the concept well.

Regards,

Bob

[florriej]

Thanks Bob & Bob. The picture was a help, very clarifying. I think I need to go back to trying the re-enter & roll and pay more attention to what's going on between me & the cockpit. Maybe it's more a thigh/knee issue than hip, I'm not sure at this point. Good to know what to be looking for.

[EEL]

I think I need to go back to trying the re-enter & roll and pay more attention to what's going on between me & the cockpit.

If you have no problem rolling normally, that would suggest the boat's outfitting is OK.

Perhaps the difficulty with a renter and roll is that you are not taking the time to get fully seated with thighs braced and everything ready before trying to roll. Rushing is often the enemy in rolling. Not speed or being fast, but rushing.

Ed Lawson

[tyson]

Here is the start of a series of posts on cockpit outfitting by Adam Bolonsky (who is also on NSPN). Unfortunately, his labels lack consistency so you can't just get the full series without a lot of digging. However, one of the links in that post is a bunch of pictures by Brian Nystrom. I'm not suggesting that you need to replace your seat, esp. if it is already comfortable. However, if you go to the pictures link and look at the album labeled "Kayak Outfitting" you will see some examples of how one might outfit their cockpit. It might give you a better feel of what to look for.

Cheers!

Ty

[Bob C]

Hi Florrie,

As a point of comparison on how much outfitting is enough, here are some examples from the kayak pod that lives in our cellar:

The outfitting in both my Avocet and my Tempest (for sale!) is stock.

My Inazone has only added hip pads as the photo shows (the seat is "one size fits all" wide. I'm not wide.).

My Pintail (bought used) has a stock seat and a little padding above the knees put there by the previous owner, who must have been about my size. I ripped out some additional padding that was on the hull to the outside of the knees. It didn't allow me to relax my legs while paddling. No backrest at present -- the old one rotted and I need to carve a replacement.

My wife (Deb M) has a glued-in NDK aftermarket foam seat and a hand-carved backrest in her Romany LV -- basically full-custom outfitting.

To mod or not to mod? Start incrementally, try small changes in outfitting, paddle and roll a few times, and see what makes you happy. See how you feel after a few hours in the boat before making a decision. You might end up with just enough padding to keep you from falling out of the boat or a full custom seat and backrest.

Regards,

Bob