Lights for night kayaking

[nancysan]

Could anyone suggest a light to be used for night kayaking that is reliable, long lasting and can be seen well by approaching craft, and where could I could get two in a hurry?

Thanks, Hal & Sandy

[EEL]

Could anyone suggest a light to be used for night kayaking that is reliable, long lasting and can be seen well by approaching craft, and where could I could get two in a hurry?

The type of light you need for night paddling depends upon where you will be paddling.

In a busy harbor or area with many light sources? In waters where state laws apply and which state? In areas where traffic is light and/or few light sources?

Opinions vary a lot about this, but I keep it simple and have a relatively strong Xeon bulb flashlight which I have at the ready when paddling at night in case I need to show my location to another vessel. Something I assiduously avoid and have not needed to do. However, I don't paddle in crowded areas or areas with a good deal of light pollution either. I also carry glow sticks for being able to keep track of fellow paddlers and to illuminate compass.

Ed Lawson

[dogfish]

rule 25 again one white light (flash light) to be lit to avoid collision. all it takes is a white light to be turned on in the event that someone MAY run you down. so you dont have to have it on all the time since you need to have another boat close to have the probablity of a collision. best advice . shine it at your boat then at them if they dont get the point.

[nancysan]

rule 25 again one white light (flash light) to be lit to avoid collision. all it takes is a white light to be turned on in the event that someone MAY run you down. so you dont have to have it on all the time since you need to have another boat close to have the probablity of a collision. best advice . shine it at your boat then at them if they dont get the point.

Thanks for the info. This is for a meetup in NH to view fireworks. I didn't realize until this morning that NH requires a raised light on all water craft after dark.

Nancy (also called Sandy)

[gyork]

Could anyone suggest a light to be used for night kayaking that is reliable, long lasting and can be seen well by approaching craft, and where could I could get two in a hurry?

Inland waters NH require white light illumination, 360 degrees of view. A C-light works well, strapped to a head band, or cradled within a night stick that rises above your head. Laws specify continuous "on" mode, but in a kayak, keep it at the ready to activate as boats approach.

[jeffcasey]

I have a flashlight with a conical diffuser lashed into a piece of PVC pipe about 18" long.

I also have a PVC pipe end-fitting of same diameter mounted on my back deck.

I thus have a light that sits a couple feet off the water and can be seen 360.

It is generally too bright for people to want to look at, but when we do night paddling in Gloucester Harbor, where there is a fair amount of night traffic, I like to leave it on and paddle sweep (where it won't ruin anybody's night vision). thus, one bright light for the group.

I also keep a headlamp handy but not on, for the obvious directed needs.

[jtmllr]

I don't get out as often as I'd like to at night, but I have one of those suction cup LED mini towers I put on the back so I'm seen, and it doesn't affect my vision. I also have a Petzl MYO headlamp, because it is extremely bright (LED so it does well with batteries), has a well sealed battery compartment, a flip up/down lens for spot/flood, flash mode, and isn't made in China. I'm a fan of headlamps, especially when you need your hands for other things like paddling. For backup I have a Hydrostar Sub http://gizmodo.com/5099184/hydrostar-sub-f...ightning-review that is dynamo charged and submersible, so I'll always have a bright light no matter what. I keep it in my bag I take paddling so it is always there. Has laser pointers, which I assume is used for pointing out things to others in a group (?) and a flash mode as well. Very well built but made in China

Not much helps with your vision, i.e. headlights, as the light reflects off the water and you'd need something very bright to illuminate it for travel. The headlamp is great for landings though. I suppose the lasers would be good for detecting trees on shore out of the range of a headlamp, and feeling around.

[Pintail]

Nancy (also called Sandy),

Perhaps New Hampshire (wherever that might be) has more stringent laws than Massachusetts; but the one to avoid is definitely the strobe -- USCG have always advised us that these should only be used in emergency!

A waterproof headlamp is probably your best bet, for use when a boat approaches, and if you want to take note of where each other is at any moment, then there are those who advocate a chemical stick thrown back over the shoulder, worn on your back -- or one of those not-too-bright white lights that can clip onto a PFD...

We have seen all manner of weird and wonderful lighting over the years: reds and greens galore, even some that resembled Christmas trees!

Some of us might even prefer to "go commando" (as Suzanne would put it!) Anonymity is great, isn't it?

[dogfish]

dont get too complicated. NH subscribes to the federal component as far as I remember. All you need is a flashlight. and it doesnt have to be on all the time just when there is a risk of a collision. Ideally to illuminate you and your kayak

[spuglisi]

dont get too complicated. NH subscribes to the federal component as far as I remember. All you need is a flashlight. and it doesnt have to be on all the time just when there is a risk of a collision. Ideally to illuminate you and your kayak

A couple of years ago a group of us were out on a night paddle (Nancy, same as is scheduled for tonight) The Hampton marine patrol came motoring towards us at a good rate of speed ( as if to make a point) and informed us that a 360 degree light needed to be used by each paddler for us to be in compliance with NH regs. Nearly all of us had some combination of shoulder, deck, or headlamps along with flashlights but they insisted that a 360 white light was required.

No fines but an unfriendly warning.

[cathyfoley]

rule 25 again one white light (flash light) to be lit to avoid collision. all it takes is a white light to be turned on in the event that someone MAY run you down. so you dont have to have it on all the time since you need to have another boat close to have the probablity of a collision. best advice . shine it at your boat then at them if they dont get the point.

That may be the rule in MA, but in NH on inland waters and where local regs. require it (such as Hampton and Rye), you must have a white light that can be seen 360 degrees.

[EEL]

That may be the rule in MA, but in NH on inland waters and where local regs. require it (such as Hampton and Rye), you must have a white light that can be seen 360 degrees.

Just to document the basis for Kathy's statement here is applicable NH Regulation:

"Saf-C 403.16 Lights on Non-Power Boats.

(a) Boats propelled by oars, paddles or other human or natural device except sails, operated on any public water, shall, between sunset and sunrise, display one white light in a conspicuous position, so placed as to show all around the horizon."

I will leave to others the fun of parsing the term "public water" (Defined at RSA 270:20) and the interaction between this regulation and the Rules.

Ed Lawson

[dogfish]

ad more crapola.... http://boat-ed.com/nh/course/p4-9_navlights.htm . Most states tend to comply with the requirements spelled out nationally with some exceptions these are taught by the organization providing the lesson, in north eastern mass they teach both NH and MA exceptions and requirements for youth and adult through the coast guard auxiliary. . NASBLA usually has a hand in helping with and approving the course curricula. incidently they are usually the people who enforce boat law and of course teach the courses.

The cited section...is or appears to be missing the smaller sized boat listed in the nh boating safety course. Oversight or does it rank up there with tying your mule to the door knob? All you need once again is a flash light.... unless NH wants to say that their boating course is not compliant and their population is not licensed and my guess is probably not.

( does it appear to be expired???)

Saf-C 403.16 Lights on Non-Power Boats.

(a) Boats propelled by oars, paddles or other human or natural device except sails, operated on any public water, shall, between sunset and sunrise, display one white light in a conspicuous position, so placed as to show all around the horizon.

( Any other type of non-motorized vessel, when propelled by sail alone, shall carry only the combined light or separate side lights as appropriate to its class. Additionally, one white light at the stern so constructed that it shall show an unbroken light over an area of the horizon of 12 points of the compass so fixed as to show the light 6 point from right aft on each side of the vessel.

Source. #2351, eff 4-25-83; ss by #3010, eff 5-2-85; ss by #4562, eff 1-3-89; ss by #5936, INTERIM, eff 1-3-95, EXPIRES, 5-3-95 (formerly Saf-C 403.18); ss by #6005, eff 3-24-95, EXPIRED: 3-24-03

New. #7904, INTERIM, eff 6-24-03, EXPIRED: 12-21-03

New. #8093, EMERGENCY, eff 5-28-04, EXPIRES: 11-24-04; ss and moved by #8172, eff 9-21-04 (from Saf-C 403.15)

Saf-C 403.17 Diagrams. The running lights set forth in these rules shall be as illustrated in Figure 400-1:

Figure 400-1 Running Lights

Source. #2351, eff 4-25-83; ss by #3010, eff 5-2-85; ss by #4562, eff 1-3-89; ss by #5936, INTERIM, eff 1-3-95, EXPIRES, 5-3-95 (formerly Saf-C 403.19); ss by #6005, eff 3-24-95, EXPIRED: 3-24-03

New. #7904, INTERIM, eff 6-24-03, EXPIRED: 12-21-03

New. #8093, EMERGENCY, eff 5-28-04, EXPIRES: 11-24-04; ss and moved by #8172, eff 9-21-04 (from Saf-C 403.16)

[dogfish]

A couple of years ago a group of us were out on a night paddle (Nancy, same as is scheduled for tonight) The Hampton marine patrol came motoring towards us at a good rate of speed ( as if to make a point) and informed us that a 360 degree light needed to be used by each paddler for us to be in compliance with NH regs. Nearly all of us had some combination of shoulder, deck, or headlamps along with flashlights but they insisted that a 360 white light was required.

No fines but an unfriendly warning.

That is because they couldnt...

[EEL]

The cited section...is or appears to be missing the smaller sized boat listed in the nh boating safety course.

( does it appear to be expired???)

Sigh. My mistake, I apologize. It is not a good idea to discuss legal issues with laymen, let alone anonymous non-members. This is akin to the silly argument that kayaks are vessels propelled by machinery under the Rules which I have seen made.

The regulations do not appear expired to me. If true it would mean there are no valid regulations on the subject and I rather think that is not the case. Further, they are listed on the Dept. of safety website as the regulations in force. Whether the official boating course info developed by some private entity is consistent with the regulations is likely one more example of your government at work.

Personally, I agree with you. However, and I believe there are folks here who can confirm, the NH Marine Patrol does not. And that is all I have to say on the matter.

Ed Lawson

[EEL]

Sigh. My mistake, I apologize.

On second thought I apologize for my comments and regret making them. I sometimes allow my professional persona , which of necessity must be argumentative and confrontational, to inject itself where it does not belong and is inappropriate. I am sorry.

Ed Lawson

[ccarlson]

Anyway, insofar as paddling NH inland waters is concerned... if you don't have a 360 degree white light, you may well be hassled by the Marine Patrol. That said, I don't own such an animal but, then again, I'm a bit of an anarchist ;-)

[Pintail]

NSAPN?

(The North Shore Anarchistic Paddlers' Network)

[dogfish]

so...

2 Commodores from the Coast Guard Auxiliary, 1 State Boating Law administrator and to round it out about a half dozen boating safety instructors for NH. state that It is true you do need a 360 degree white light lit if you can move faster than 7 knots and you have some sort of machinery connected to you and you dont need it if you are rowing your punt or paddling your yak a white flashlight with do. see rule 25.

You can use you white light although it is more than you really need.

[EEL]

so...

2 Commodores from the Coast Guard Auxiliary, 1 State Boating Law administrator and to round it out about a half dozen boating safety instructors for NH. state that It is true you do need a 360 degree white light lit if you can move faster than 7 knots and you have some sort of machinery connected to you

Did they cite to you a statute or regulation that says that? If they did, would you quote it here? If not, you may find it enlightening to ask them for the cite to the regulation and statute. It is irrelevant, actually, what the CG Aux. and the others think. The question is what is the legal requirement and that means there must be a regulation or statute which specifically says what the requirement is. This is a nation of laws and not men which means those in authority cannot just make stuff up and impose it upon others. Having said that, as a practical matter, best to abide by what the Marine Patrol expects. However, once they cite you and ask a court to impose a fine, then they have to prove you violated a regulation or statute if you contest it. The opinion by the law enforcement officer as to what is legal or not is irrelevant as well since that is the job of the court in the final analysis.

BTW, I am aware of the Marine Patrol citing the operator of a dingy with an outboard for failing to have not just a white light , but also red and green bow lights as well. Sounds inconsistent with what they told you, but consistent with the regulations. I am perfectly willing to accept I am wrong, but I need to see the regulation or statute.

Ed Lawson

[dogfish]

The State of NH subscribes to the state boating law administrators guidance and recommendations. As such the earlier mentioned training by: http://boat-ed.com, uscgaux.org, usps and a few for profit entities that may be listed: http://www.egov.nh.gov. Each comply with the rule of law as well as meeting all of the requirements of the federal and the state laws. If there are any exceptions or additions the states have provided that to the boating safety educators for inclusion. The answer keys and appropriate lesson materials are also provided. Most notably the NH portion has a very short compliance exam and Massachusetts has a youth exam.

For a vessel under oars a white flashlight is minimally acceptable. Your question of a boat with a motor yes he needed red and green as well as white. For further information about lighting such as feet above the water line, intensity, screeing, etc see http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/NavRules/an...annex_1Intl.htm. Note that the flashlight or torch listed in rule 25 has no specification other than what is listed in the rule itself.

So again from a cost and device position I offered you only need a white flashlight. As you can see you could have much more robust and costlier solution if you so choose.

[EEL]

If there are any exceptions or additions the states have provided that to the boating safety educators for inclusion.

While this is a reasonable assumption, it is not correct with regard to the lighting requirements under discussion. When I raised this issue with a NH Department of Safety official, they indicated they were not aware of the inconsistency and were going to look into why the Boat-Ed course materials for NH are not consistent with NH law.

Just to make things more interesting, the Department of Safety/Marine Patrol takes the position that they can enforce their rules along the NH coast for at least 6NM off the coast. Which means if you are two NMs off the NH coast in a kayak the Marine Patrol can enforce Saf-C 403:13:16(a) if they choose and cite you for failing to have a white light visible all around the horizon (360) while if CG stops you in the same location they will say if you have a flashlight you are in compliance with the Rules.

As I said awhile back, if you really want to have fun, start parsing what constitutes public waters under NH law and what provides a basis for the state's position they can enforce their laws 6 NMs out. Or, for more fun, consider that if you are in waters under the jurisdiction of the CG and NH, then by paddling with white light visible for 360 to comply with NH law you are violating the Rules since a single white light under the Rules is to be used only to designate a vessel at anchor. OTOH , if you are paddling with only a flashlight at the ready in compliance with the Rules, you are violating NH law. Oh, by the way, the NH Marine Patrol readily admits there are two different sets of applicable rules on the coast which may explain why they are more likely to give a warning on this issue than a citation. For still more fun, you can try exploring whether the state's ability to impose requirements inconsistent with federal law for certain matters of safety includes the ability to impose requirements inconsistent with the Rules beyond the COLOREGS line.

Ed Lawson

[Pintail]

Ed -- you're the best!

[tyson]

...is there any wonder that there are people who lack faith in our government?

[dogfish]

I have forwarded concerns further up the chain so the responsible parties on both areas of enforcement can discuss and hopefully provide an answer that can be published.