jeffcasey Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 "dogfish" posted, as part of a message on another thread: "1. FCC requires that if you have a Marine Radio and it is on you are required to monitor channel 16." Good point....and this brings up something I have always worried about. I have an ancient Standard Horizon model something-or-other submersible which carries nicely on the PFD (and has never had problems, in spite of the experience others had with same model). As far as I know, and it was years ago that I read and lost the manual, it won't scan channel 16 if parked on another channel such as 72 (which I believe some of the larger dash-mounted models will do nicely). I'm sure that many of you are up to date on the latest equipment.....are there good handheld submersibles now that you can park on 72, yet will scan and break in on received signals for channels 16 or 9 (or better yet, any of a set of channels that might be desired)? Thanks ahead for the info! - Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 "dogfish" posted, as part of a message on another thread: "1. FCC requires that if you have a Marine Radio and it is on you are required to monitor channel 16." Good point....and this brings up something I have always worried about. I have an ancient Standard Horizon model something-or-other submersible which carries nicely on the PFD (and has never had problems, in spite of the experience others had with same model). As far as I know, and it was years ago that I read and lost the manual, it won't scan channel 16 if parked on another channel such as 72 (which I believe some of the larger dash-mounted models will do nicely). I'm sure that many of you are up to date on the latest equipment.....are there good handheld submersibles now that you can park on 72, yet will scan and break in on received signals for channels 16 or 9 (or better yet, any of a set of channels that might be desired)? Thanks ahead for the info! - Jeff Every Icom radio that I have seen can be setup to do a tri scan. In tri-scan mode it will scan the channel your parked on, 16 and your haling channel (without reprogramming defaults to 9). I would guess that Standard has something close to that too. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Every Icom radio that I have seen can be setup to do a tri scan. In tri-scan mode it will scan the channel your parked on, 16 and your haling channel (without reprogramming defaults to 9). I would guess that Standard has something close to that too. I believe every recent VHF marine hand held has the ability to monitor 16 while also listening to a selected channel. In addition they can be set to monitor a selected WX channel for severe WX alerts along with 16 and selected channel which is a very nice feature when bad weather is about. I do not know how it is done in all marine handheld radios, but typically a radio does a very fast scan between the channels because it has only one receiver section which means it is possible, but unlikely to miss a transmission. Some radios can monitor two frequencies simultaneously because they have independent receiver sections. For commercial vessels there is a requirement that certain monitoring cannot be done via a scanning radio due to potential for harm from missing a transmission. I suspect few take the time to learn to use or use regularly all the features these radios have. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob budd Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 As non-commercial vessels (other than paid guides, I guess) I would expect we are not subject to the FCC regulation. That's not to say its not a good idea to have a better radio, rather that its not cause to buy another piece of equipment (sorry Mike). Something has been brought up that when one locks their radio to prevent inadvertent channel switches, etc. they cannot get to channel 16 without first unlocking their radio. This is an example of a failed user interface designed by someone who would appear not to use/appreciate the application of the equipment. That is, if one shops for a radio, consider what it takes to get from "locked state" to "emergency message" state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 As non-commercial vessels (other than paid guides, I guess) I would expect we are not subject to the FCC regulation. Actually, if you are a non-commercial vessel (kayak) and you have a radio and the radio is on, then you are required under the regulations to monitor 16. No exceptions, but notice the precise nature of the requirement. http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/fedreqs/equ_radio.htm Something has been brought up that when one locks their radio to prevent inadvertent channel switches, etc. they cannot get to channel 16 without first unlocking their radio. Locking is a very valuable feature, but for every advantage there is a disadvantage. However, the points to be checked, as Budd suggested, are can you initiate a scan mode and then lock the radio and just how difficult is it and what are the ways you can unlock the radio. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Actually, if you are a non-commercial vessel (kayak) and you have a radio and the radio is on, then you are required under the regulations to monitor 16. No exceptions, but notice the precise nature of the requirement. http://www.uscgboating.org/safety/fedreqs/equ_radio.htm Locking is a very valuable feature, but for every advantage there is a disadvantage. However, the points to be checked, as Budd suggested, are can you initiate a scan mode and then lock the radio and just how difficult is it and what are the ways you can unlock the radio. Ed Lawson Wouldn't it be reasonable that after pressing the channel 16 button you get channel 16, whether or not the radio is locked? Isn't that the purpose of the (Ch 16) emergency button? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Wouldn't it be reasonable that after pressing the channel 16 button you get channel 16, whether or not the radio is locked? Isn't that the purpose of the (Ch 16) emergency button? No you still need to hit the lock key then 16. The lock doesn't prevent transmit, it prevents other changes. (At least with Icomm). THe lock/unlock is just holding a key for 3 seconds. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 No you still need to hit the lock key then 16. The lock doesn't prevent transmit, it prevents other changes. (At least with Icomm). THe lock/unlock is just holding a key for 3 seconds. -Jason Yes, obviously what you say is true. But it doesn't respond to my concern. I have such an Icom radio. My point is that the design is stupid. Suppose you lend the radio to someone else in the locked position (say locked on 72) so he can go in to shore for a break but can still communicate with the group on 72. Further suppose he doesn't know how to unlock it. Then he can't get to 16 (to call Mayday for instance). Also, if you haven't read the manual recently, you may not remember how to unlock it. A more reasonable design would be to hold the Ch 16 button for say one second, which would over-ride the lock and jump to 16 no matter which channel the radio was locked to. An even more reasonable design would allow the Ch 16 button to always go to channel 16 no matter how short a time it was pressed. The Ch 16 button is an emergency button; it should override any damn lock function. Furthermore, as I stated months ago, the squelch design is also stupid. With my Icom M-72, the lowest squelch level always blocks out the background noise. Thus, the other squelch levels are much too high and block out signals as well as noise; therefore the multiple squelch levels are useless. A proper design would require that some squelch level above the first level would be the initial level that blocks the noise. Sort of like the way that my older Raytheon analog VHF worked; i.e. you turn up the squelch knob until it just blocks the noise, so true signals above this level can get through. I tested the Icom M72 squelch function on a Sunday (near Marblehead in a signal-rich environment) and found that, indeed, the lowest squelch setting does block out weaker signals that were still readable when the squelch was turned off. Bottom line: if you want to be sure you can hear all weak signals on some channel you have to turn the squelch off. However, then you have to put up with the annoying receiver noise, which can drive you nuts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Yes, obviously what you say is true. But it doesn't respond to my concern. I have such an Icom radio. My point is that the design is stupid. Suppose you lend the radio to someone else in the locked position (say locked on 72) so he can go in to shore for a break but can still communicate with the group on 72. Further suppose he doesn't know how to unlock it. Then he can't get to 16 (to call Mayday for instance). Also, if you haven't read the manual recently, you may not remember how to unlock it. A more reasonable design would be to hold the Ch 16 button for say one second, which would over-ride the lock and jump to 16 no matter which channel the radio was locked to. An even more reasonable design would allow the Ch 16 button to always go to channel 16 no matter how short a time it was pressed. The Ch 16 button is an emergency button; it should override any damn lock function. Furthermore, as I stated months ago, the squelch design is also stupid. With my Icom M-72, the lowest squelch level always blocks out the background noise. Thus, the other squelch levels are much too high and block out signals as well as noise; therefore the multiple squelch levels are useless. A proper design would require that some squelch level above the first level would be the initial level that blocks the noise. Sort of like the way that my older Raytheon analog VHF worked; i.e. you turn up the squelch knob until it just blocks the noise, so true signals above this level can get through. I tested the Icom M72 squelch function on a Sunday (near Marblehead in a signal-rich environment) and found that, indeed, the lowest squelch setting does block out weaker signals that were still readable when the squelch was turned off. Bottom line: if you want to be sure you can hear all weak signals on some channel you have to turn the squelch off. However, then you have to put up with the annoying receiver noise, which can drive you nuts! I love my M72 and am very happy with the lock design. The M72 has more than the simply squelch, you should play with the squelch settings in the program mode to see if you are able to address you concerns. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leong Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I love my M72 and am very happy with the lock design. The M72 has more than the simply squelch, you should play with the squelch settings in the program mode to see if you are able to address you concerns. -Jason I like my M72 also, but I don't like the design of the squelch and lock functions (I think all new digital VHFs have the same stupid design in this area). There are two settings for the squelch in the program mode: Squelch sensitivity OFF and ON. Neither of these two settings will change the thresholds corresponding to the 10 squelch level numbers (1 – 10). Question: Did you ever set the squelch level above setting number 1? Probably not. So why are there 9 other squelch settings? They are useless! In a good design, one of the squelch settings above 1 should be the lowest squelch setting that blocks out the noise. Take your VHF out on a weekend when there is lots of chatter. You'll see that the lowest squelch level will sometimes block out the weakest signals (perhaps you won’t hear your friend calling for help when he's at maximum range). Not sure, but I think the ON (local) squelch setting in the program mode just prevents a temporary spike in the average noise from coming through. I couldn't demonstrate any difference when I tried it (but I'm sure there is a subtle difference). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gcosloy Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 No you still need to hit the lock key then 16. The lock doesn't prevent transmit, it prevents other changes. (At least with Icomm). THe lock/unlock is just holding a key for 3 seconds. -Jason I never lock on a channel because I didn't think it was useful. Yesterday out in Salem Sound I locked on 72 and during the paddle was alerted by an alarm sound and was informed that they were testing the emergency warning system. I tried unlocking during the emergency warning transmission but couldn't switch them off. I should have tried 16 at that time to see if it would connect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 (I think all new digital VHFs have the same stupid design in this area). Question: Did you ever set the squelch level above setting number 1? Probably not. So why are there 9 other squelch settings? They are useless! In a good design, one of the squelch settings above 1 should be the lowest squelch setting that blocks out the noise. Yes, every handheld I have used (marine and otherwise) over the last 10 years or more has the same basic lock feature and it is a very good feature in many applications. Especially where a radio has many more settings available from the keypad than is found on marine VHF radio where the controls and programming are quite simple/basic. It is not big deal assuming you are familiar with the radio. I understand one can generate hypothetical situations where it is not optimal. I agree on a marine radio the ability to unlock by pressing the 16 key for a second or two would be better. I believe Marine handheld radios share some basic building blocks with radios built for other services and the manufacturers likely do not see the economic value to creating specialized chips/programming for use in one type of service to alter basic features common to all. I do not agree the other squelch levels being useless or the squelch design is stupid. The radios are designed to be operated in a variety of environments, some of which are much more challenging in an RF sense that what a kayaker experiences. In those settings, higher squelch levels may well be valuable. I too never go above level 1 on the water, but in testing I have needed to use higher levels when in an RF "rich" environment. Personally I used to prefer the older style squelch with a separate knob, but I have come to prefer the fixed setting now common on handhelds as it lessens the odds of the knob getting turned by accident and making the radio "deaf". I have used ham handhelds which now also have fixed squelch settings for many years and have never found it to be a problem regarding hearing weak signals. The speced squelch threshold on the M72 is .35 microvolts which sounds quite adequate to me for hearing weak signals, but I won't debate the point some might get missed. There is so much internal noise on VHF that good copy of a truly weak FM signal is really hard in any event has been my experience. Just because everyone does something one way does not make it right, but just because everyone does not do something the way we would like it to be does not make that way stupid either. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I never lock on a channel because I didn't think it was useful. Yesterday out in Salem Sound I locked on 72 and during the paddle was alerted by an alarm sound and was informed that they were testing the emergency warning system. I tried unlocking during the emergency warning transmission but couldn't switch them off. I should have tried 16 at that time to see if it would connect. Gene: I very seriously doubt you received that message on 72 or 16. Instead your radio must be set to listen for weather alerts for the NWS radio station and they announced a test which broadcasts the tone which your radio listens for to alert you. In fact, NWS stations broadcast that test on Wed. and I bet it was between 11AM and 1PM. Since it was an alert, it should not have be easy to turn it off, but I have no idea what radio you have or its features. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scamlin Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Jeff: If it's the model we all bought in the group buy, it's a Standard Horizon HX460S. The owner's manual is on the Standard Horizon site: http://www.standardhorizon.com/indexVS.cfm...mp;isArchived=1 Look for Section 4.8 on p. 13. This radio can do a "dual Watch" not as obvious as other radios, but uses the radio's Priority Scan feature. Interestingly, you can set any other channel--not just 16 or 9--to be the monitored channel in the background. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 This radio can do a "dual Watch" not as obvious as other radios, but uses the radio's Priority Scan feature. Another way to skin this cat is to simply put 16 and the channel de jur in memory and hit scan. When just scanning two channels most radios alternate very fast so odds of missing something on either channel is not high. Of course if you have weather alert active it will be scanning three channels, but still fast. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Another way to skin this cat is to simply put 16 and the channel de jur in memory and hit scan. When just scanning two channels most radios alternate very fast so odds of missing something on either channel is not high. Of course if you have weather alert active it will be scanning three channels, but still fast. Ed Lawson I beleive that's why one is supposed to say MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY this is ..... Even if the radio is scanning a few channels it should get back in time to hear at least one of the MAYDAY, PAN PAN or SECURITY's that the caller starts with on 16. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 <I beleive that's why one is supposed to say MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY this is ..... Even if the radio is scanning a few channels it should get back in time to hear at least one of the MAYDAY, PAN PAN or SECURITY's that the caller starts with on 16> Actually, that is not correct, Jason: even in aviation terms, one repeats those words thrice -- and airborne R/T sets are not of that scanning sort: you set a frequency -- and that is what you are receiving and transmitting on. Generally, one carries two VHF sets and monitors both of them, simply changing the Tx selector to choose on which you wish to transmit... Sorry; but that isn't the reason at all -- don't ask me: I don't know why we do that. I <presume> it is for clarity' sake and so that there is no confusion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 <I beleive that's why one is supposed to say MAYDAY MAYDAY MAYDAY this is ..... Even if the radio is scanning a few channels it should get back in time to hear at least one of the MAYDAY, PAN PAN or SECURITY's that the caller starts with on 16> Actually, that is not correct, Jason: even in aviation terms, one repeats those words thrice -- and airborne R/T sets are not of that scanning sort: you set a frequency -- and that is what you are receiving and transmitting on. Generally, one carries two VHF sets and monitors both of them, simply changing the Tx selector to choose on which you wish to transmit... Sorry; but that isn't the reason at all -- don't ask me: I don't know why we do that. I <presume> it is for clarity' sake and so that there is no confusion? I looked it up and you are correct it's not designed to help with scan mode issues but it will help. The repeat is to "to prevent mistaking it for some similar-sounding phrase" source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mayday_(distress_signal) -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPSheehan Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 While reading this thread I see many use the VHF Channel 72 (intership only) channel for communication. I'm not exactly clear the difference on the Non-Comercial "PleasureBoat" channels which are 68,69 & 71 and the (intership only) channel 72. I personally use 69 by default but know that many NSPNers use 72 is there a specific reason for this or is it just a common channel. U.S. VHF Channels USCG Navigation Center Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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