dsigall Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Just read through the posts about Valley toggle clips in the "towing question" thread... I was at the Chebacco skills session yesterday trading rescue/victim practice with Blaine in (& out) of his Nordkapp LV. As I paddled up to get a hand on his bow and begin a T-resuce his toggle clip slid across my deck line near my bow and hooked itself on- out of sight and out of reach. Of course each paddle stroke of mine just pushed us both along. When I realized what had happened I was able to free it with my paddle blade but this would have been near impossible under any other conditions. Good reason to cut them off. Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingsn Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Just read through the posts about Valley toggle clips in the "towing question" thread... I was at the Chebacco skills session yesterday trading rescue/victim practice with Blaine in (& out) of his Nordkapp LV. As I paddled up to get a hand on his bow and begin a T-resuce his toggle clip slid across my deck line near my bow and hooked itself on- out of sight and out of reach. Of course each paddle stroke of mine just pushed us both along. When I realized what had happened I was able to free it with my paddle blade but this would have been near impossible under any other conditions. Good reason to cut them off. I cut mine off of my Avocet the day it arrived. What good is your toggle strapped to your deck if you need it. Just a bad idea. Dana Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scamlin Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Dana: Could you explain exactly how the toggle clip snagged on your deck lines? I'm not sure I understand what clip means: the black plastic bar attached through the eye at the bow with loop of white nylon line? Toggles are considered safety equipment by the Brits: an essential hold for a swimmer (maybe the paddler) to hold onto a kayak. They are more convenient than deck lines to either tow or be towed from the water. They can be important particularly in surf as they are designed to be held even if the kayak window shades in a wave. If they can snag on the decklines of another boat, that's a real problem but I've never heard of this happening before. Thanks, Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spuglisi Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Dana: Could you explain exactly how the toggle clip snagged on your deck lines? I'm not sure I understand what clip means: the black plastic bar attached through the eye at the bow with loop of white nylon line? Toggles are considered safety equipment by the Brits: an essential hold for a swimmer (maybe the paddler) to hold onto a kayak. They are more convenient than deck lines to either tow or be towed from the water. They can be important particularly in surf as they are designed to be held even if the kayak window shades in a wave. If they can snag on the decklines of another boat, that's a real problem but I've never heard of this happening before. Thanks, Scott Scott, What I think he's talking about is a plastic clip attached to a short bungie, on valley boats, that's used to keep the toggle secured during transport. It clips to a metal ring incorporated in the deck lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Scott, What I think he's talking about is a plastic clip attached to a short bungie, on valley boats, I think criticism of this very ingenious design is unwarranted. Its real function only becomes apparent when someone lifts your boat by the toggle. Once the bungie cord has stretched to its max, the delrin clip deforms, slips off the ring, the bungie cord contracts swiftly, and the clip smashes into the hand holding the toggle inflicting considerable pain. It is then that you say politely, "It is best not carry the boat by the toggle". Once is usually enough for the lesson to be learned. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyork Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Once the bungie cord has stretched to its max, the delrin clip deforms, slips off the ring, the bungie cord contracts swiftly, and the clip smashes into the hand holding the toggle inflicting considerable pain. It is then that you say politely, "It is best not carry the boat by the toggle". Once is usually enough for the lesson to be learned. Ed Lawson Mr Neatfreak made the mistake of clipping the toggle of a fellow camper's kayak, whilst beached, resulting in an outburst heard clear across the lake, when owner grabbed the toggle to launch. My thrifty solution to keeping the toggle from flopping around was a purchase of a few feet of very thin elastic cord at Joann's fabric, from which is made a a small loop (the knot carefully hidden in the RDF, of course). Though quickly discouraged at discovery, toggles can still be grabbed for transport by the uninformed, as the cord allows considerable stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I think criticism of this very ingenious design is unwarranted. Its real function only becomes apparent when someone lifts your boat by the toggle. Once the bungie cord has stretched to its max, the delrin clip deforms, slips off the ring, the bungie cord contracts swiftly, and the clip smashes into the hand holding the toggle inflicting considerable pain. It is then that you say politely, "It is best not carry the boat by the toggle". Once is usually enough for the lesson to be learned. Ed Lawson Carrying a loaded boat while avoiding smacked knuckles will be one of the many camping related matters that will be covered in Scott Camlin's KAYAK CAMPING WORKSHOP tomorrow night at the Gould Barn! (This is a shameless plug for tomorrows workshop.) We will have loaded boats boats with said bungee offenders (mine) and loaded boats without said offenders ( probably everybody else's ) for comparison. Knuckle smacking demonstrations offered on request. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scamlin Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Scott, What I think he's talking about is a plastic clip attached to a short bungie, on valley boats, that's used to keep the toggle secured during transport. It clips to a metal ring incorporated in the deck lines. Thanks for the clarification. Hadn't seen this new Valley innovation. My solution to flopping toggles down the highway is low tech: a loop of thin (1/8-3/16") elastic cord that goes under the decklines at the nose attachment point (rdf). It can be hooked over the bow and stern toggles, holding it to the deck. The elastic cord is so stretchy that it easily allows the toggle to be pulled over the end of the bow/stern for use by a swimmer (the cord is then around the bow/stern below the toggle line). It even allows--gasp--the toggle to be used to carry the boat. You can check out my set up at the camping workshop tomorrow in Topsfield. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Crouse Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 I thought it was OK to carry a fully loaded boat by the toggles. They do it in the This is the Sea dvd so I assumed this was a BCU standard practice! :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPSheehan Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Interesting story about the T rescue and getting hung up on deck lines. As far as Valley bungee cord and clips, I replaced the ones on both of my Valley Kayaks with stronger hooks that have a tongue. This is due the the weaker stock clip coming loose when someone grabs the toggle to pull the kayak. The weaker clip would pull loose and whack you in the knuckle. I now use a bungee that can be stretched without too much strain when the toggle is pulled to the full length of it's tether. Much happier with this solution and I d like the toggles being secured with the bungee. See the photo of the clip below Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingsn Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Interesting story about the T rescue and getting hung up on deck lines. As far as Valley bungee cord and clips, I replaced the ones on both of my Valley Kayaks with stronger hooks that have a tongue. This is due the the weaker stock clip coming loose when someone grabs the toggle to pull the kayak. The weaker clip would pull loose and whack you in the knuckle. I now use a bungee that can be stretched without too much strain when the toggle is pulled to the full length of it's tether. Much happier with this solution and I d like the toggles being secured with the bungee. See the photo of the clip below Neil I too have a low tech solution to the problem. I removed the ring from the rdf, and the bungie & hook from the toggle. When transporting the boat on my roof, here's the tricky part, I let the toggle hang down by the hull. It doesn't move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPSheehan Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Everyone has there own methods and ways of outfitting their kayak and that's cool. When carrying a loaded or unloaded boat I like to grab the boat under the bow or stern then grab the toggle with the other hand. Having one hand on the toggle and the other under the bow or stern prevents a slip and drop if you are only holding the kayak and you or your helper stops abruptly or stumbles. Seaweed covered rocky shorelines can be especially treacherous. I nicely ask whoever is helping me to carry my kayak to do the same. Having the toggle above deck held in place by the bungie and easily available to grab I feel is a nice outfitting by Valley and unless I ever find it to be a problem I think I'll keep it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingsn Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Everyone has there own methods and ways of outfitting their kayak and that's cool. When carrying a loaded or unloaded boat I like to grab the boat under the bow or stern then grab the toggle with the other hand. Having one hand on the toggle and the other under the bow or stern prevents a slip and drop if you are only holding the kayak and you or your helper stops abruptly or stumbles. Seaweed covered rocky shorelines can be especially treacherous. I nicely ask whoever is helping me to carry my kayak to do the same. Having the toggle above deck held in place by the bungie and easily available to grab I feel is a nice outfitting by Valley and unless I ever find it to be a problem I think I'll keep it. That all makes sense. I would only hope that the 'problem' isn't a 'real' problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilsoj2 Posted June 12, 2009 Share Posted June 12, 2009 Though I've found the Valley toggle keeper system effective in both keeping the toggle easy to grab when necessary and preventing finger entrapment, I'm moving to monkey fists to replace the toggles on my boats. (I hadn't thought of the pedagogical value of the Valley system in teaching folk to not carry boats by the toggle.) Monkey fists are easy to grab, cannot entrap a finger, and are not noisey when banging against the hull. This is not my innovation as Steve Maynard had monkey fists as toggles on his boats some time ago. I planned to learn how to make them and never did. Now, however, I have a friend who makes very nice ones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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