Towing Question

[EEL]

Are there any particular advantages or not to clipping into the towee's bow toggle loop, assuming it is a loop, as opposed to the decklines? Seems both ways are used/suggested. Just wondering if in real world use there is a difference. Unfortunately, being in hinderlands essentially impossible to avail myself of the substantial benefits provided by the lake skill session so I ruminate.

Ed Lawson

[GJ Carey]

Hi Ed,

Try not to use the bow (or stern) toggle loop as it's a one shot deal. If it fails (and they do) you've lost the towees boat. Use the deck lines, and the load is spread over many deck fittings. If you pop one, there are plenty of others to take up the slack. Also, just hook onto one of the lines, again so that if there is a failure you won't loose the boat. There is no difference in the time it takes to hook onto either, so go for the more secure hook in point.

Now, all of this is mute if you simply wiff the hook in which I did last weekend .

Galen

[bob budd]

A bow toggle is designed to allow a rescuee to grab hold of your boat and not to carry a boat. I try to carry a boat from beneath the hull, though I do grab the toggle from time to time, and have seen more than one toggle come out of a boat. Being a line through fiberglass as opposed to a line tied to the boat by multiple fittings requiring shear force (for one fitting) to fail it is probably not as structurally sound as the deck lines. Thus, I would wager that the deck line (clip onto just one) would be a better place to clip on.

[rick stoehrer]

Are there any particular advantages or not to clipping into the towee's bow toggle loop, assuming it is a loop, as opposed to the decklines? Seems both ways are used/suggested. Just wondering if in real world use there is a difference. Unfortunately, being in hinderlands essentially impossible to avail myself of the substantial benefits provided by the lake skill session so I ruminate.

Ed Lawson

i agree with galen. the bow toggle loop is there IF you are in the water and need to hold onto your boat it's just a place to grab (being carfeul not to get digits wrapped up) and hold on the toggles should never be used for towing for exactly reason he cites.

always use the deckline - the deckline is secured by multiple points via the rdfs and they'd virtually all have to pull out before you lost connection with the the towed boat (or i suppose a line could give but frankly either way that's a LOT of force and if that's the dynamic at work....eh, none of us are going to do well there!)

...and while on the topic of toggles...some folks like a monkey's fist....it's clean, it's a single line and you have virtually no chance of entangling said digits....on the other hand, i don't feel that they give the same purchase as a toggle...i don't think they'd offer the same ability to just hold onto your boat when the rotary oscillator starts flinging stuff.....my opinion.

[EEL]

Thanks all. Sort of what I had thought, but only in a vague way and now I have some reasons. Seems clipping into deckline would make it easier to deal with overall as clipping into the toggle loop while the bow is bouncing all over the place might add more challenge than desired.

Ed Lawson

[djlewis]

A bow toggle is designed to allow a rescuee to grab hold of your boat and not to carry a boat. I try to carry a boat from beneath the hull, though I do grab the toggle from time to time, and have seen more than one toggle come out of a boat. Being a line through fiberglass as opposed to a line tied to the boat by multiple fittings requiring shear force (for one fitting) to fail it is probably not as structurally sound as the deck lines. Thus, I would wager that the deck line (clip onto just one) would be a better place to clip on.

I agree that clipping a tow to a deckline is generally better than to the toggle line.

As to the strength of the toggle connection, however, many boats have a pretty strong toggle setup -- a substantial line through the bow at a spot sufficiently deep. I have no qualms, for example, carrying my Aquanaut by the toggles, and would feel ok clipping a tow to it as well.

[NPSheehan]

I'm wondering if the stainless ring found on the bow and stern decklines on most Valley Kayaks could be used to clip onto. I haven't been able to find any info. on if that ring was meant for this or just a place to clip the toggle bungie onto to keep the deck lines taught or to prevent toggle windflap. It would seem clipping onto ring would distribute the load evenly on the decklines as well as prevent deckline fraying which could be caused by the towing clip/caribiner.

Neil

[PeterB]

I'm wondering if the stainless ring found on the bow and stern decklines on most Valley Kayaks could be used to clip onto. I haven't been able to find any info. on if that ring was meant for this or just a place to clip the toggle bungie onto to keep the deck lines taught or to prevent toggle windflap. It would seem clipping onto ring would distribute the load evenly on the decklines as well as prevent deckline fraying which could be caused by the towing clip/caribiner.

Neil

Using the perimeter deck lines to clip on and off is tried- and -true, so there's no real reason to mess with success.

I can see no advantage or added convenience to using the bow toggle or any other fitting over the deck line. Have you or anyone had a problem with using the perimeter deck line?.

If the perimeter line has failed, ( rare, I'm sure , but I've heard stories of this happening) the bow toggle could be used as an alternative.

Rec. boats usually do not have deck lines, in which case, use whatever you can: the bow toggle would become a more likely thing to clip onto, way better than bungees.

[rick stoehrer]

I'm wondering if the stainless ring found on the bow and stern decklines on most Valley Kayaks could be used to clip onto. I haven't been able to find any info. on if that ring was meant for this or just a place to clip the toggle bungie onto to keep the deck lines taught or to prevent toggle windflap. It would seem clipping onto ring would distribute the load evenly on the decklines as well as prevent deckline fraying which could be caused by the towing clip/caribiner.

Neil

as far as i can see that whole valley arrangement was just silly frou-frou....seriously. i'm told by someone with an in on the design side that it was there JUST to secure the toggle while the damn thing is on the roof so it don't chatter around....are they still doing it? i don't believe for an instant that it serves any real "kayaking" use at all leat of all how you'd hook into that during a rescue if the boat is pitching about.

[NPSheehan]

Well I don't know if I'd consider it frou-frou even if it's there to keep tension on the decklines or to prevent windflapping of the toggle against the boat while driving. But given it's a stainless ring not a cheapo plastic one I thought it may have had some safety aspect to it or maybe to secure a bow/stern line when tied to a dock. I do understand that clipping onto the deckline is standard practice for towing though.

Neil

[great_blue]

.......if you simply wiff the hook in which I did last weekend .

Oh behave!

[sorry, I couldn't resist]

Jon

[jason]

I agree that clipping a tow to a deckline is generally better than to the toggle line.

As to the strength of the toggle connection, however, many boats have a pretty strong toggle setup -- a substantial line through the bow at a spot sufficiently deep. I have no qualms, for example, carrying my Aquanaut by the toggles, and would feel ok clipping a tow to it as well.

I have never seen a deck line break but I have seen a 1/2 dozen bow toggles break. The line seems to get a lot more abrasion from movement than the deck lines. The tenancy for the bow toggles to beak is why one should never carry boats by the toggles.

-Jason

[Pintail]

Neil, there is something else you apparently fail to consider -- please imagine attempting to get your carabiner into that (fairly small) stainless ring that you seem to like so much when your boat and the one you are trying to get a line onto are both bouncing up and down in three- or four-foot seas -- FIDDLY! Very fiddly. Getting your carabiner onto the deckline is the easiest, fastest and most reliable technique. That's why it is taught.

Re toggles: the BCU, for one, teaches that those toggles are only there for use when you are in the water, hanging onto your boat. DavidL has been in that system for some time: I'm surprised he'd consider carrying his boat by means of them -- not with my boat, you don't David! ; ^ )

[jason]

Well I don't know if I'd consider it frou-frou even if it's there to keep tension on the decklines or to prevent windflapping of the toggle against the boat while driving. But given it's a stainless ring not a cheapo plastic one I thought it may have had some safety aspect to it or maybe to secure a bow/stern line when tied to a dock. I do understand that clipping onto the deckline is standard practice for towing though.

Neil

Neil,

Is it not the case that the stainless ring will release if the front RDF breaks? One of the points hooking into the deck lines is it will take multiple RDF failures.

-Jason

[leong]

If the tower (person doing the towing) becomes incapacitated the towee (person being towed) would have no way to release the towline if it’s hooked to the bow toggle. I think, that for most kayaks, the decklines come all the ways back to the cockpit; therefore, in an emergency, the towee could release the towline by cutting the deckline.

[Suz]

If the tower (person doing the towing) becomes incapacitated the towee (person being towed) would have no way to release the towline if it’s hooked to the bow toggle. I think, that for most kayaks, the decklines come all the ways back to the cockpit; therefore, in an emergency, the towee could release the towline by cutting the deckline.

YIKES - that's drastic but I suppose it might done although I think if the victim needs to get out of the tow and it is just a single tow, they might holler to the person towing to release. In which case the person towing would release the bag and all leaving it hooked to the towed boat. I would imagine that if the tower became incapacitated, prior to reaching the point of being incapable of doing anything, they would release the tow.

If in a rafted tow, the tow can be released by the stabilizing boat if through their deck line and then clipped to the victim's deck line.

Suz

[leong]

YIKES - that's drastic but I suppose it might done although I think if the victim needs to get out of the tow and it is just a single tow, they might holler to the person towing to release. In which case the person towing would release the bag and all leaving it hooked to the towed boat. I would imagine that if the tower became incapacitated, prior to reaching the point of being incapable of doing anything, they would release the tow.

If in a rafted tow, the tow can be released by the stabilizing boat if through their deck line and then clipped to the victim's deck line.

Suz

It might be a drastic situation, but it could easily occur. For example, the tower capsizes after being hit by a wave. I wouldn't want to be tied to an upside down kayak that is surfing towards the rocks? Personally, I'd never let someone tow me unless I had some way to release.

[risingsn]

It might be a drastic situation, but it could easily occur. For example, the tower capsizes after being hit by a wave. I wouldn't want to be tied to an upside down kayak that is surfing towards the rocks? Personally, I'd never let someone tow me unless I had some way to release.

When your the victim the rescuer is in charge and your release is at his discretion. In the above scenario the rescuer would release his belt & if you were capable you would simply paddle forward , gather up the rig & stuff it in your PFD or under your bungees. I think that if you are in the above conditions & really need a tow you would be glad to have someone clip on & get you going, no arguments.

Just my 2 cents ($3.50 w/ the coming inflation)

[leong]

When your the victim the rescuer is in charge and your release is at his discretion. In the above scenario the rescuer would release his belt & if you were capable you would simply paddle forward , gather up the rig & stuff it in your PFD or under your bungees. I think that if you are in the above conditions & really need a tow you would be glad to have someone clip on & get you going, no arguments.

Just my 2 cents ($3.50 w/ the coming inflation)

With all due respect, I wouldn't pay anywhere near two cents for your response. I've towed tired paddlers many times. I never thought of them as victims. They were just tired! If I were to capsize in rough water while towing I’d hope they would have some way to quickly release from me before my boat pulled them into a dangerous position.

[rick stoehrer]

If the tower (person doing the towing) becomes incapacitated the towee (person being towed) would have no way to release the towline if it’s hooked to the bow toggle. I think, that for most kayaks, the decklines come all the ways back to the cockpit; therefore, in an emergency, the towee could release the towline by cutting the deckline.

the line comes back towards the cockpit but there are multiple rdf's preventing the tow-er biner and line from getting back to the tow-ee....if the tow-ee really, really wants out and the tow-er is uncooperative for whatever reason, then the tow-er would need to paddle forward til there was slack and cut the line and disengage from the tow.

not once have i ever seen this.

[gyork]

I’d hope they would have some way to quickly release from me before my boat pulled them into a dangerous position.

This doesn't seem possible under the recommendations posted. What if.......the towee passed the 'biner/snap hook through the toggle cord and ran it aft to the front of the cockpit coaming, and attached it to a closed nylon strap (think stirrup rescue) that has been looped around the coaming. Now towee has the option to release. Yet attachment point is not optimum placement for directing the towee's boat (?too far aft?). I suppose the 'biner will more than likely get snagged on the toggle loop on its "return" trip, too.

More fuel for the fire, so fire away!

gary

[jason]

This doesn't seem possible under the recommendations posted. What if.......the towee passed the 'biner/snap hook through the toggle cord and ran it aft to the front of the cockpit coaming, and attached it to a closed nylon strap (think stirrup rescue) that has been looped around the coaming. Now towee has the option to release. Yet attachment point is not optimum placement for directing the towee's boat (?too far aft?). I suppose the 'biner will more than likely get snagged on the toggle loop on its "return" trip, too.

More fuel for the fire, so fire away!

gary

To be placed around the coaming it would have to go around the person in the boat that's being towed. I would think that it would be an entanglement issue plus it could prevent the spray skirt from releasing.

The clipping to the deck lines in the bow is the way to go, what are we really attempting to solve?

When towing you don't tow to the rocks, the person towing would be missing some marbles if they started rock gardening with a boat on tow.

2nd if a boat is on tow they are on tow for a reason and at the mercy of the tower, if they are at the point where they would be paddling again most people towing will gladly put away the lines.

-Jason

[leong]

To be placed around the coaming it would have to go around the person in the boat that's being towed. I would think that it would be an entanglement issue plus it could prevent the spray skirt from releasing.

The clipping to the deck lines in the bow is the way to go, what are we really attempting to solve?

When towing you don't tow to the rocks, the person towing would be missing some marbles if they started rock gardening with a boat on tow.

2nd if a boat is on tow they are on tow for a reason and at the mercy of the tower, if they are at the point where they would be paddling again most people towing will gladly put away the lines.

-Jason

Have some of you no imagination? The main point of connecting to the deck lines instead of the front toggle is so that the towee isn’t at the mercy of the tower. For whatever reason the tower becomes incapacitated (or is ruining into a rock, or pulled into a tidal stream, etc, etc.), the towee should have the option of releasing as fast as possible. Bad things happen, black swans exist, stock markets lose more than 30% in a single day, two planes may take down the World Trade Center, etc.

Someone said “When towing you don't tow to the rocks, the person towing would be missing some marbles if they started rock gardening with a boat on towâ€. Yes, that’s true. Don’t you realize I’m not talking about rock gardening? Suppose two boats are in rough water near rocks to start with and one boat needs to be towed for whatever reason (he hit a rock, he’s afraid to face going through the breakers, etc.). Then isn’t it possible for the tower to get into more trouble than the towee is in? Wouldn’t the towee want to free himself from the now disabled tower?

Someone also said “2nd if a boat is on tow they are on tow for a reason and at the mercy of the tower, if they are at the point where they would be paddling again most people towing will gladly put away the linesâ€. Yes, but what if the tower can’t because she's too busy saving herself from a capsize, from hitting rocks, etc., or she's dead from a burst artery, etc

Additionally, in some instances the victim becomes the rescuer. For example, as head lifeguard in Monmouth County, NJ, I used to certify applicants for the position of lifeguard. I used to swim out and call for help. The applicant would swim out, dive down while facing me and turn me around in order to perform the rear huggie cross-chest rescue. Just as the applicant dived down, I would turn around quickly so when the applicant rescuer turned me around I ended up facing him as he came to the surface. Then I grabbed him around the neck. About 50% of the time I ended up having to rescue the applicant (i.e. the rescuer’s and victim’s roles were reversed). Although a contrived test, sometimes this scenario occurred naturally in real life!

[jason]

Have some of you no imagination? The main point of connecting to the deck lines instead of the front toggle is so that the towee isn’t at the mercy of the tower. For whatever reason the tower becomes incapacitated (or is ruining into a rock, or pulled into a tidal stream, etc, etc.), the towee should have the option of releasing as fast as possible. Bad things happen, black swans exist, stock markets lose more than 30% in a single day, two planes may take down the World Trade Center, etc.

Someone said “When towing you don't tow to the rocks, the person towing would be missing some marbles if they started rock gardening with a boat on tow”. Yes, that’s true. Don’t you realize I’m not talking about rock gardening? Suppose two boats are in rough water near rocks to start with and one boat needs to be towed for whatever reason (he hit a rock, he’s afraid to face going through the breakers, etc.). Then isn’t it possible for the tower to get into more trouble than the towee is in? Wouldn’t the towee want to free himself from the now disabled tower?

Someone also said “2nd if a boat is on tow they are on tow for a reason and at the mercy of the tower, if they are at the point where they would be paddling again most people towing will gladly put away the lines”. Yes, but what if the tower can’t because she's too busy saving herself from a capsize, from hitting rocks, etc., or she's dead from a burst artery, etc

Additionally, in some instances the victim becomes the rescuer. For example, as head lifeguard in Monmouth County, NJ, I used to certify applicants for the position of lifeguard. I used to swim out and call for help. The applicant would swim out, dive down while facing me and turn me around in order to perform the rear huggie cross-chest rescue. Just as the applicant dived down, I would turn around quickly so when the applicant rescuer turned me around I ended up facing him as he came to the surface. Then I grabbed him around the neck. About 50% of the time I ended up having to rescue the applicant (i.e. the rescuer’s and victim’s roles were reversed). Although a contrived test, sometimes this scenario occurred naturally in real life!

leong,

If your towing the close to the rocks you may think of starting off with a contact tow. I see no place for you to be setting up a rescue sling around a incapacitated paddler and feeding a tow line though when time counts.

If the person that has clipped on to you has capsized at the rocks, they should release the tow. If they are incapacitated and still attached to you, you now can tow them out of the rocks.

If you werethe incapactied boat that is now the healthy boat, you can always back paddle the pair of boats then paddle forward and grab the tow line and take charge of the situation.

-Jason

[lhunt]

The April 2009 issue of Sea Kayaker mag gives both an example situation where a tow-ee needs to release and the tow-er can't, and the solution in the form of a fast, simple, quick release knot for the tow-ee end of things.

The tow-er gives the end of the rope to the tow-ee, then ties the Highwayman's Hitch knot (which doesn't require a rope end to complete) to the deck line. The tow-ee can pull the rope to release the knot. No 'biner involved.

The knot is also useful for cartopping, that way you get lots of practice using it.