Water in hatches

[bazzert]

After the last couple of trips I have noticed a small amount of water in the forward and aft hatches of my NDK Explorer. The covers are good so I suspect that water is migrating from the main compartment or day hatch (the cover of which is cracked). Looking at the bulkhead there is a small gap at the bottom which is filled with something (glass/resin?) that seems to have deteriorated. Is there anything I can reseal this with ? And if so how should I prep the surface.

thanks,

Barry.

[bob budd]

You can patch such a thing with flexible sealants, there a few name brands that escape me. You also want to drill a very small hole in the middle of the bulkhead to allow air to travel in/out or suction can be created that draws water in. Others may say this will allow water to get in but if you use the correct hole (1/64"?) they are mistaken. You may find these issues mentioned at Brian Nystrom's site (or elsewhere).

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

After the last couple of trips I have noticed a small amount of water in the forward and aft hatches of my NDK Explorer. The covers are good so I suspect that water is migrating from the main compartment or day hatch (the cover of which is cracked). Looking at the bulkhead there is a small gap at the bottom which is filled with something (glass/resin?) that seems to have deteriorated. Is there anything I can reseal this with ? And if so how should I prep the surface.

thanks,

Barry.

Hey Barry,

I may be misinterpreting what you are referring to, but the bulkheads on the Explorer do tend to have that gap so it may not represent deterioration. The best thing you can do right now since you're not sure where the leaks are coming from is to put the kayak on some saw horses and use a hose to find where the leak is coming from (fill them up and look for leaks). From my experience, it is usually the hatches or hatch rims that usually cause the problem.

[Brian Nystrom]

Bob and Kevin are both correct.

A gap around the edges of a bulkhea is normal, as the bulkhead is held in by fiberglass tape that's bonded to both the hull/deck and the bulkhead panel, on one side only. If there is indeed a gap in the resin that allows water through, the best way to fix it is to clean the area (water first to remove salt residue, then a solvent like lacquer thinner to get the surface chemically clean), then coat the area with epoxy. There is no need to fillet the gap between the bulkhead panel and the hull, just make sure that any cracks or thin spots in the tape are filled.

If you prefer, you can use a sealant like Lexel, GOOP (any of their products will work), 3M 4200 or 3M 5200. You can get these at hardware stores, home centers and marine suppliers. DO NOT use silicone sealer! It bonds poorly and it leaves a residue that prevents other materials from bonding.

As Bob mentioned, you should vent your bulkheads to eliminate pressure differences between the compartments. Although it sounds counterintuitive, putting a small hole (~1/32") in your bulkheads will reduce the amount of water that seeps in. I suggest positioning it roughly in the center of the bulkhead or slightly above.

[Bill H]

I just had my W/S Tempast 170 Kevlar repaired at Suncook Canoe and Kayak. I thought my skeg box was leaking and tried the hose trick but didn't have any luck so i talked to the rep and sent my kayak in for warranty repair. At suncook He uses smoke to see where the leaks are and found that my 2 rear hatches were leaking from the hatch rims. He sealed them from the inside with some type of sealant and then rechecks for leaks.

Bill H

[subaruguru]

Hi Barry,

My Cetus developed a similar leak at the rear bulkhead, requiring cleaning (lacquer thinner) and a swipe of epoxy for a quick 'n easy repair. Brian's right on....

Lemme know if you want help with this, as I have the stuff in my garage.

Ern

[Pintail]

I find Lexol difficult to locate, nowadays -- neither of the Very Big Hardware superstores seem to stock it (and I do need some to re-seal the foam-block bulkheads of my old plastic Skerray).

Where do you suggest I look, Mr. Nystrom?

[Gcosloy]

Lexol is stocked at Concord Lumber, Lowell St.Concord, MA.

The first place to look for leaks is bulkhead leakage. The second would be the hatch seals around the rim collar. Finally and this is rare but has occurred: the plastic rim has a hairline crack that you haven't noticed. If you haven't relieved the imbalance of pressure between the inside and outside by providing a small hole in the bulkheads, this can cause the sucking in of water that accumulates around the hatch covers during use. Sometimes relieving this pressure imbalance is sufficient and you don't need to repair the crack in the hatch rim. Very rare leaks can occur via the front or rear toggle tube holes. These are usually surrounded by epoxy when manufactured and consequently this form of leakage should be investigated when all else fails.

[subaruguru]

I find Lexol difficult to locate, nowadays -- neither of the Very Big Hardware superstores seem to stock it (and I do need some to re-seal the foam-block bulkheads of my old plastic Skerray).

Where do you suggest I look, Mr. Nystrom?

Maybe you're searching LexOl (a leather cleaner) by mistake?

LexEl is a toluene-thinned rubber sealant/glue. Clean surface with similar solvent (like lacquer thinner, or at least alcohol) before use.

Ern

[John Leonard]

I've had good luck with the 3m 5200 and never bothered to try to track down lexel again. Sure lexel works fine, but 5200 is more common.

Another common spot to check on the NDK boats is the base of the hatch rings. The hatch rings are bonded on then have a screw on either side that is usually overtightened. Both of the hatches on my boat (and I've seen others) developed small cracks at the screw holes and small leaks. Eventually the cracks will migrate up the ring and leak like crazy if you don't loosen up the screws.

[bazzert]

Thanks everyone for the great info. I'll try the sawhorse and hose test to confirm the source. I'll let you know what I find out.

Barry.

[Gcosloy]

I've had good luck with the 3m 5200 and never bothered to try to track down lexel again. Sure lexel works fine, but 5200 is more common.

Another common spot to check on the NDK boats is the base of the hatch rings. The hatch rings are bonded on then have a screw on either side that is usually overtightened. Both of the hatches on my boat (and I've seen others) developed small cracks at the screw holes and small leaks. Eventually the cracks will migrate up the ring and leak like crazy if you don't loosen up the screws.

Yes I forgot about that one John. NDK Kayaks seem to be the watery analog of pre-80's Harley Davidsons. Harley's all had the reputation of leaking oil from the crankcase. A couple of years ago leaving a craft festival next to Pickering Wharf in Salem in my Explorer, an elderly British gent with a cane and a smile looked down at my launching and inquired, "Do they still leak water at the skeg box?" I assured him they did and if not there, then it was almost certainly somewhere else.

[Brian Nystrom]

I find Lexol difficult to locate, nowadays -- neither of the Very Big Hardware superstores seem to stock it (and I do need some to re-seal the foam-block bulkheads of my old plastic Skerray).

Where do you suggest I look, Mr. Nystrom?

True Value hardware stores carry it, as do some specialty paint stores. There is a dealer locator on their website at www.sashcosealants.com/Home_Improvement/Lexel.aspx. It's under the "Consumers" heading.

[Tom Tieman]

3M 5200 works great, but has a very limmited life after opening the tube. MAS has a new product, that they lasts longer after opening. I bought a tube, but have not tried it yet.

[twopoundtest]

Hi,

Sounds like you already have alot of input...

I figured I'd reply only because I recently replaced my hatch rims on a NDK explorer. There were spider thin cracks up from the bolts on the lateral aspects of both fore and aft (kayak sport) hatch rims. (The valley day hatch rim was fine). The problem was illuminated by shining a bright light on the inside of the rim in the dark, clear fracture lines were then visualized from the outside of the rim.

After much looking I found kayak sport rims from Tom's top kayaker at a good price and had to wait a bit for the special order.

The project: taking out the old rims and putting in new ones was once described on this board as a PITA job. That was no understatement.

I primarily used a heat gun and mineral spirits for removal.

I used 5200 for installation. -Yes I did have to bolt down the new hatch rims in the same place that caused the initial problem. Caliper clamps were not holding satisfactorily and 5200 takes days (like a week) to dry. If anyone plans to bolt these rims down you should know there is little room for error and you should purchase a counter sink drill bit to avoid splitting the rims while trying to counter sink the bolts (only millimeters away from having to order new rims again).

-So far mine don't leak but ugh, never want to do that job again. I hope you have a different problem.

[Gcosloy]

A good piece of advise from Dave J. at CRC&K : If the water leaking in is small and more of a nuisance then use dry bags for the gear you need to be dry and forget about the leak. We always get water in our cockpits and never worry about finding leak proof sprayskirts, so maybe the best course is to forget about it.

[spuglisi]

A good piece of advise from Dave J. at CRC&K : If the water leaking in is small and more of a nuisance then use dry bags for the gear you need to be dry and forget about the leak. We always get water in our cockpits and never worry about finding leak proof sprayskirts, so maybe the best course is to forget about it.

I don't know. That sounds more like a cop out than good advice. I just had two hatch rims sealed and one replaced, under warranty, and it's soooo nice to have dry hatches. I use dry bags anyway but everything isn't a soggy mess when I unload my boat now.

[Paul Sylvester]

If you have cracks in the hatch rim at the bolts there is no need to put in new rims IMO.

What worked well for me was to remove the bolt and use a file, knife or whatever to remove any residue and then fill the old hole with unthickened epoxy.

For leaks: Before filling the whole hatch try dribbling water around the hatch rim. Let it set awhile and see if you get drips coming through.

I really like the smoke idea.........

Set the boat at an angle and fill your ends, you could have a small split at the seam or a toggle hole leak.

[spuglisi]

If you have cracks in the hatch rim at the bolts there is no need to put in new rims IMO.

What worked well for me was to remove the bolt and use a file, knife or whatever to remove any residue and then fill the old hole with unthickened epoxy.

For leaks: Before filling the whole hatch try dribbling water around the hatch rim. Let it set awhile and see if you get drips coming through.

I really like the smoke idea.........

Set the boat at an angle and fill your ends, you could have a small split at the seam or a toggle hole leak.

In my case the rims were leaking where they were bonded (or not) to the deck. I found the worst leaks just as you suggested by pouring water around the outsides of the rims and watching it leak inside. The smoke test (same dealer as Bill's boat) turned up some smaller ones as well.

[eneumeier]

I once had a toggle hole leak. Drove me nuts. I tried everything to find the leak in the stern hatch. Then, after filling the hatch with water and angling the boat down, I noticed a drip forming on the toggle. Once diagnosed it was easy to fix with some epoxy. Liz

[Brian Nystrom]

I used 5200 for installation. -Yes I did have to bolt down the new hatch rims in the same place that caused the initial problem. Caliper clamps were not holding satisfactorily and 5200 takes days (like a week) to dry. If anyone plans to bolt these rims down you should know there is little room for error and you should purchase a counter sink drill bit to avoid splitting the rims while trying to counter sink the bolts (only millimeters away from having to order new rims again).

If you use screws to install the new rim - something I don't recommend - you must be VERY careful not to over-tighten them. That's the reason that the hatch rims split in the first place. The screws should only be tightened enough to pull the rim into the sealant completely.

[jdkilroy]

I refer you to the recent "Repairing a leaking cockpit flange" topic for the easiest way to find leaks in your boat.

Using a little air pressure (the exhaust side of your vacuum cleaner), duct tape and a liquid soap and water mix, you can find even the smallest leak.

As an aside: the G/flex epoxy (West System) would be an excellent choice of adhesive for hatch rims. Slower cure and remains somewhat flexible.

Jon

[Brian Nystrom]

As an aside: the G/flex epoxy (West System) would be an excellent choice of adhesive for hatch rims. Slower cure and remains somewhat flexible.

I wouldn't recommend any epoxy for this type of repair, as it makes it much more difficult to remove the old rim and adhesive should the hatch rim ever need replacement again. Flexible sealants can be cut by working a thin wire or cable between the rim and the deck and "sawing" one's way around the hatch rim. You can't do this with epoxy and it may even necessitate cutting and grinding away the old hatch rim. Since epoxy doesn't really bond the rim to the deck any better than a product like 3M 5200, I don't see any point in using it. Epoxy is best in structural applications, like bonding your broken coaming back in place as you described in your other thread.