spider Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I'm looking to replace my Gps (Garmin etrex Vista) as it has become "tempermental". I'm wondering what others might be using. Any recommendations? (or ones not to buy). I know a larger screen size would be nice. Garmin and Mangella (sp?) seem to be the ones to consider, so any help would be much appreciated. thanks spider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted March 4, 2009 Share Posted March 4, 2009 I'm looking to replace my Gps (Garmin etrex Vista) as it has become "tempermental". I'm wondering what others might be using. Caveat: I do not own one and I don't have a big interest in anything beyond say a Foretrex 101. Nor did I stand at a Holiday Inn Express last night. After playing with it at the Yarmouth, ME store and looking at the software and maps/charts you get or can freely download, I think exploring the DeLorme Earthmate Pn-20 and 40 units would be a good idea. Not as popular perhaps as the Garmins, etc., but they seemed to be serious tools for serious use. According to the reviews, the desktop software is very capable, but takes some study to use. Basically the PN-20 seemed a bit slow, but for $199 you get a unit with an enormous amount of maps, a 1G memory stick for the unit, and a $100 credit which lets you download essentially all the NOAA charts for the NE at least as well as aerial and satellite images. So for $199 you get a unit that will get you to the launch site, show you a topo of the land features along the way, and provide NOAA nautical charts for the journey. I believe the desktop software lets you add info to be displayed, etc., but I did not try that out. The store staff at Yarmouth seemed to know their stuff so visiting is definitely a good idea. They indicated to me that while the PN-20 was slower, especially for redraws, than the PN-40, that should not be a problem while hiking or kayaking since more noticeable when traveling faster and the price was right. I assume it would also mean shifting from chart to aerial and satellite image would be slow too. I must say drilling down on a NOAA chart to see just part of a small island shore was impressive. Displays seemed bright and crisp to me. It also uses AA batteries which is a big plus to me compared to some proprietary LiION battery that will need to be recharged after one day out on a long weekend. http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML/DELibeCCtd...p;section=10106 http://shop.delorme.com/OA_HTML/DELibeCCtp...p?section=10461 Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spider Posted March 5, 2009 Author Share Posted March 5, 2009 Thanks I'll check it out. I like the fact it's waterproof. I see most the info is geared for the USA so I'm hoping it has some Canadian maps/charts available. Perhaps using GPS is not that common amongst kayakers. Someone had given me one for hiking, esp above treeline, but that was a few years ago and things have upgraded since then. Some of the places I have in mind are lightly charted, so the GPS might come in handy for entering waypoints ahead of time etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyork Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 ...the GPS might come in handy for entering waypoints ahead of time etc. Spider, I keep my entry-level yellow Garmin in a waterproof case in the day hatch, and bring it along on expeditions only. I use GoogleEarth to determine waypoints of important features such as centers of islands along my expected route. I'll keep a list of the waypoints, and also write select waypoints on my chart before I laminate it. It's probably a good idea to load and name these waypoints before the trip, but I find it fairly easy to enter these when needed (obviously sea-state dependent!). A great tool to have when the fog rolls in, after navigation skills (such as dead reckoning) haven't satisfied expectations! Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 I use GoogleEarth to determine waypoints of important features such as centers of islands along my expected route. Gary: Have there been any issues with accuracy of the waypoints you get from Google Earth? One thing I do is create waypoints when I am at various points of interest so I slowly accumulate a collection of points generated "on situs" for future use/reference. Ed Lawson Its March, can Jewell or something new be far ahead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tieman Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 For kayaking, I'd recommend the Garmin 76Cs or the 76Csx or the DeLorme PN40. The 76 is waterproof and floats; has a good basemap, with nav. markers, ship wrecks, tide stations etc. The PN40 may have slightly better mapping. Both units give accurate tidal information so you can know how far to bring your boat up and if your tent will stay dry. The PN40 also gives water current speed from some stations, mostly near/in rivers. The extra accuracy that the 76Csx provides (over the 76Cs) is really not worth much for kayaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Spider, you wrote something like "maybe not many kayakers use GPS" (I think); but I suspect that you will find, once spring springs, that there are <many> kayakers who do use it! (Kayakers tend towards being a tad anal?) Personally, I reckon that if GPS is that wonderful (Tom), then it ought to be able to bing-bong you, saying "Suggest you move your boat further up the beach: neap tide today" or "Weather alert: take appropriate action: waves increasing" or similar...Well, if we can have tiny barometers that strap on our wrists and if we can have all this technology in a small device, why not get them all together, if you see what I mean? Imagine going to sleep in your bivvy (one "v" or two, anyone?) and hearing in your sub-concious "Gale warning! Gale warning! Small boat advisory -- wake up; move your boat, you stupid snorer..." or something along those colourful lines... Ah, yes: technology! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyork Posted March 6, 2009 Share Posted March 6, 2009 Have there been any issues with accuracy of the waypoints you get from Google Earth? Haven't tested these on a trip-foolish of me. Next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spider Posted March 8, 2009 Author Share Posted March 8, 2009 I seem to be narrowing it down to the Earthmate Pn-40 and the Garmin76 CS. (I like the Large screen of the Garmin 400c, but perhaps not as user friendly) Trying to find one that is mitten friendly or at least usuable with cold hands, large numbers and function buttons fi possible. I need to be sure I can add charts for Canada, or at least the sections I go to...Gaspe, Anticosti, Mingans etc with out over loading the units memory etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spuglisi Posted March 8, 2009 Share Posted March 8, 2009 I seem to be narrowing it down to the Earthmate Pn-40 and the Garmin76 CS. (I like the Large screen of the Garmin 400c, but perhaps not as user friendly) Trying to find one that is mitten friendly or at least usuable with cold hands, large numbers and function buttons fi possible. I need to be sure I can add charts for Canada, or at least the sections I go to...Gaspe, Anticosti, Mingans etc with out over loading the units memory etc Spider, If I'm not mistaken I think that some units have removable memory cards which would give you pretty much unlimited capacity. You'd just plug in the card with the charts for the area you were paddling in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Lord Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I seem to be narrowing it down to the Earthmate Pn-40 and the Garmin76 CS. (I like the Large screen of the Garmin 400c, but perhaps not as user friendly) Trying to find one that is mitten friendly or at least usuable with cold hands, large numbers and function buttons fi possible. I need to be sure I can add charts for Canada, or at least the sections I go to...Gaspe, Anticosti, Mingans etc with out over loading the units memory etc The Garmen 400C looked good to me too because of the big screen and pre-loaded blue charts, however, after reading the reviews I would stay away from it. You cannot program it from your computer, is not compatible with Apple and has limited battery life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spider Posted March 9, 2009 Author Share Posted March 9, 2009 Spider, If I'm not mistaken I think that some units have removable memory cards which would give you pretty much unlimited capacity. You'd just plug in the card with the charts for the area you were paddling in. yes , it's true, so I'm tryng to figure how much for a Gps and how much more to get the cards for an area. I'm pretty naive on some (a lot) of this. For example, I was thinking whichever Gps I get here I'll just add Canada to it. ....That seemed fine till I learned, for one of the units, I could add a card for just the section that covers most of the areas I'm apt to go when up there.... But that card was available for an additional $300+. Yikes ! So it's hard to tell, how much your actually paying for a Gps and how much more you pay for the card programs, or different bundle packages things are offered with. Gets the head spinning when one is trying to compare what's available for what price etc. etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tieman Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 ...Personally, I reckon that if GPS is that wonderful (Tom), then it ought to be able to bing-bong you, saying "Suggest you move your boat further up the beach: neap tide today" or "Weather alert: take appropriate action: waves increasing" or similar...Well, if we can have tiny barometers that strap on our wrists and if we can have all this technology in a small device, why not get them all together, if you see what I mean? Imagine going to sleep in your bivvy (one "v" or two, anyone?) and hearing in your sub-concious "Gale warning! Gale warning! Small boat advisory -- wake up; move your boat, you stupid snorer..." or something along those colourful lines... I hope you didn't read more into my post than I wrote! For someone who has already decided to get a gps for kayaking on the ocean, the tide feature is a useful feature. I don't know of any that have weather alerts and no amount of electronics will ever do all your thinking for you! I was camped on a "camp at your own risk" island on the Maine Island Trail once. The campsite was located "Below the dunes, but above the high tide". It was a very calm night. I could hear the water comming closer and closer and thought about packing up the tent and going back out on the water for an hour or so at midnight. Instead, I looked up the actual tide level and the high tide level to figure out exactly how much the tide would rise. The water came right up to low side of the tent! And, that data is now stored on my PC, so I can have a pretty good idea if that island is going to an option next time I'm in the area. Some GPS units do have an electronic barometer, 76Csx, for example. Personally, I'd rather have a weather radio. Mapping options are a bit overwhelming. Keep in mind that even the lesser priced units have sufficient memory to store enough maps for a month any kayaking use. Memory cards allow you to load every posible map. But, any mapping gps has more than enough memory for a kayak trip. Don't forget to look for some of the older mapping software: I still much prefer the contour lines in original Garmin TOPO map over the shaded relief of the newer maps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NPSheehan Posted March 9, 2009 Share Posted March 9, 2009 I've had a Garmin 60Csx waterproof handheld GPS for 4 years and love it. I'ts actually held it's value and has served me well on & off the water. I've dunked it many times and it was unaffected. It's very rugged and the display albiet small is very readable. I have the Garmin BlueChart Americas Nav Charts from Boston to Bar Harbor loaded on it. I also have Garmin Topo Software and City Maps on it. It holds a lot of stuff on it's 64MB Micro SD Card. I have many Waypoints and Routes stored on it as well. I can create a route on my PC at home then load it onto the unit in seconds. Nav Aids like tide charts from the nearest tide station are accessable from the find menu. I could go on and on about it's features but it's safe to say it has many if not all the features of a deck mounted power/sail boat NAV unit. See the link below for Specs and Accessories. Garmin GPSMAP 60CSx Here is a review of the GPSMAP 60Csx and Garmin Colorado Consumer Research Review Hanheld GPS Units Outdoor Magazine 2006 Gear of the Year Award I use a deck mount suction cup with pivotal base from Garmin. I also have a mount on my Mtn Bike and on my Car Dash. Garmin GPSMAP 60Csx Marine Mount Feel free to write me if you want more info. npsheehan@aol.com Neil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spider Posted March 11, 2009 Author Share Posted March 11, 2009 Gary: Have there been any issues with accuracy of the waypoints you get from Google Earth? I think I have a partial answer to the question but somewhat in reverse of the question. Though I've had good luck referencing waypoints taken from Google Earth there are places that it wouldn't quite work. So for example,When talking to a friend about a nice kayak paddle trip last year, but when we went to look it up on Google Earth, The entire chain of Islands that we paddled were no where to be found ! So the limitation is you can't pull potential waypoints from a place that has yet to be"mapped" by Google Earth. I've found places that are lightly mapped when I reference it with Google Earth it brings me to a view with an elevation of about 4,000 feet. So I can see a town or a bay and could pull the waypoints from them I would be hard pressed to get a more exact fix of paricular rock or outcropping or somethng like that. Hope that somewhat answers the question... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Though I've had good luck referencing waypoints taken from Google Earth I guess my question was more about the accuracy of the waypoints obtained from Google Earth. I was curious if a waypoint obtained for say the landing beach on Eagle Island in Casco Bay turned out to be within 100' or so. Generally, it is only when the fog is really thick that I start thinking about the GPS and when looking for a small island, a error of a couple of hundred feet could easily mean missing it. Or inadvertently finding ledges with boomers which is no fun in the fog. With charting software you can deal with measurements as small as 1/1000 of a degree which allows pinpointing locations rather precisely. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob budd Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 I cannot speak for the coverage of Google Earth nor how accurate they establish/maintain the waypoints. The raw accuracy of a GPS location with todays implimentations should be on the order of 10 (ten) feet though acquisition time will vary with many factors - I presume the equipment identifies a fix as 3D or not. From a cold start GPS acquisition can take minutes so you might want to turn on the unit in advance of a time of dire need - battery life notwithstanding. The latest feature that was being added was to tie into vehicle speed and direction to extrapolate position when GPS fix is lost, mostly for tunnels and "urban canyons". I don't know if you'd want to install a gyro on your 'yak to take advantage of this... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyork Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 Though I've had good luck referencing waypoints taken from Google Earth there are places that it wouldn't quite work. WARNING: DO try this at home! Assume the following: You are at base camp scanning a copy of NOAA chart (or reasonable facsimile, with lat/long grids marked every 5 minutes) of your proposed route. By extrapolation (?interpolation), determine waypoints of distinct features ("breadcrumbs") along your proposed route, such as cans, nuns, island tips, and other aids to navigation. Use a china marker or alcohol-based permanent marker (preferred) to note these on your kayak deck. Thease waypoints can also be loaded into your GPS and named. This method is quite accurate, if done with care. No guarantees of accuracy if done on the fly (paddle), given unpredictable sea state at any moment. As a test, I surfed http://www.charts.noaa.gov/OnLineViewer/13313.shtml to determine the coords of a small MITA island off Swans (Hen), using the computer screen, ruler, and calculator (my long division is rusty). My calculations: 44.10.279 (44.10'17")N 68.28.431 (68.28'26") W MITA coords: 44.10'19" N 68.28'26" W I am 2 seconds (2/60 or 1/30 NM; 1 min lattitude =NM), or ~200 ft south of my intended destination. I would likely run aground on Hen, given my intended destination is the island CENTER. Gary (who hears Shackelton, Nansen, Albanov, and the like snickering in their graves!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 WARNING: DO try this at home! I am 2 seconds (2/60 or 1/30 NM; 1 min lattitude =NM), or ~200 ft south of my intended destination. I would likely run aground on Hen, given my intended destination is the island CENTER. Gary, you have demonstrated just how accurate one can be using just a chart and a simple tool in terms of finding the coordinates for a destination. Gary (who hears Shackelton, Nansen, Albanov, and the like snickering in their graves!) Just to give credit where due, it was Frank Worsley that did the navigating when they journeyed to South Georgia in the Caird. An accomplishment that is beyond belief. I forget how many sun shots he was able to take during the 800 mile journey, but it was very few and he was taking them on a 24' boat being tossed about. Somehow I don't think they would be snickering. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyork Posted March 11, 2009 Share Posted March 11, 2009 ...I don't think they would be snickering. Ed Lawson Right, poor choice of words. They might be clamoring OUT of their graves for a looksee at these magical machines (GPS)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twopoundtest Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Hey Spider, After looking around extensively I bought a Garmin 76Csx from Amazon (at a discount) a little more than a year ago. I use it primarily for kayaking, backpacking, and occasionally in the car (on trips to places I am unfamiliar with). So far I have been nothing but pleased with this GPS. I find that it is rare that a device exceeds my expectations -in those three areas it definitely does. Though I have never owned another GPS friends of mine have requested my help in configuring or using their GPS units. One had a french name which I forget, it was very complex and not user friendly the unit did not come with a program easily access the information and transfer to a computer. The other friend had a Magellan which seemed a bit better but still not as easy to use or configure and the Garmin. After seeing these other two models I felt lucky to have gone the way I did. I should also mention I purchased a 2Gig SD car and the America Topo maps with purchase of the unit and wouldn't have gone another way. What I think is important is: -Water proof / floats (Has been saturated many times, no leaks after checking battery case) -compass with course bearing -The altimeter which also can be used as a barometer -Easy interface with my laptop, the software is very good (but not perfect) It can also send tracks to google earth to be viewed there too with a click of the button. -very cool. I can quickly call up tracks by type, find average speed, distance, dates, times, elevations. And the maps on the laptop are huge. I use a paper map outdoors and use the maps in the laptop or G-earth when I get home. Of all the pages in this hand held gps the map page is the one I use the least (it is the one that gives the least info too) -Battery life I get about 10plus hours on regular AA, I just bought Lion ones to give them a try. -Never had a problem with signal in trees or mountains as yet. -I have lost signal in caves and tunnels but that is it. -Most often, I plot a course on the huge screen of the laptop using my handy mouse and transfer it to the gps, I often don't need it and I just record my track on the water. I keep the gps out of the sun in my pfd pocket and enjoy being away from that kind of stuff. When I get home I try to impress my girl friend with where I've been all day by showing her on the CPU (of course she's not always interested and rarely impressed) . And since I am poor at keeping a journal I have a log of my paddles with more info than I'd be able to write (almost unbelievable considering the length of this post). Things I watch for: -I found out that bug spray eats away at the screen and makes it cloudy. (luckily only one small corner but good to know.) -though it might be water proof it is not heat proof and probably not vapor proof so these things concern me when it has been placed in hot sun for extended periods, or in a clear dry bag. Covered in a white cloth bag would probably be the best in the hot summer. - The compass in the 76Csx was not always reading correctly and I was relying on my deck compass or a hikers compass instead (something I will do anyway) but it was annoying. My course bearing to next waypoint was always correct but not my heading! I did some research and found out that the compass in the gps is EXTREMELY sensitive, so that calibrating it in a room with a refrigerator was probably what was throwing it off. Even holding a regular compass nest to the gps can throw off it's compass. This is my one major complaint. Unfortunately of the few things this model lacks is a compass dampener, which is really important on the water. So anyway when I do calibrate it away from everything and I don't have anything magnetic or metallic when reading it yes the compass does work well. -One last thing, sometimes the orientation of things depends on speed with the gps and the settings of those speeds can help the unit work better for what you are doing. Because most kayaking happens at a higher speed than walking but a much lower speed than driving setting the device properly can be important for making the thing work well. In short the instructions are your friend in this department. Hope what you find works for you and happy paddling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spider Posted March 12, 2009 Author Share Posted March 12, 2009 Thanks that was good news as I did just order the 76csx the other day. but A friend from another site is saying how dissapointed he was in the 60csx and wants me to hold out for the Earthmate PN40. Glad you mentioned ploting a course on the computer and then send it over to the GPS. There has been confusion on that subject, some saying it can't be done. (...then again perhaps it was just me who was confused) True, I don't expect to much from electronic compasses but thought it might be a good back up in a pinch. I do want to load or purchase cards for NOAA charts or Blue Charts once I figure out the difference between the two. Neil Thanks for the offer of help. I might take you up on that once I get mine delivered (I also bought mine on Amazon.com. It should be pre loaded with maps of North and South America, but some say the maps leave something to be desired and best to load others on to it. I'm certainly open for advice so as to get the most out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob budd Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 Regardless of observed waterproof performance I'd consider putting the unit in one of the several "ziplock" carriers for things like cell phones. The unit may not do as well if immersed, etc. and if in a bag is likely to float. Its tough to see the way points from the bottom of the ocean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tieman Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 ...The unit may not do as well if immersed, etc. and if in a bag is likely to float. ... The 76csx does float, but Murphy's law dictates that it will always float away from you! I used mine for about 4 years without a bag. Eventually, the seals in the battery compartment failed and the terminals corroded. The USB seal also failed. The serial port did not fail. No water ever got into the unit itself. So: either keep the gps in a bag or inspect and replace all the seals when needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted March 12, 2009 Share Posted March 12, 2009 <The 76csx does float, but Murphy's law dictates that it will always float away from you> ...and keep it tethered, Tom? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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