Failed Roll

[Bill Gwynn]

It's pretty common for threads to wander off the original topic. To me, that's part of what makes message boards so popular. Often the original topic inspires additional thoughts and ideas that can be beneficial to everyone.

[cathyfoley]

Thanks Cathy

Does it also alleviate the need to carry a regular paddlefloat? That is, after inflation (manually or with the cartridge) can you use it for a paddlefloat self-rescue (e.g. put it on the paddle blade to either help climb back onto the kayak and/or to help with a re-entry and roll)?

Leon:

Mine would not easily attach to a paddle as a paddle float for a self rescue that way. It can be attached by wrapping the tether around the paddle several times to keep it attached. I haven't practiced with it trying to use it to climb onto my kayak, but I'm sure it would be of assistance if you were trying to do it. I find it easier to just re-enter and roll back up with it. Once it is deployed, it's is designed to remain inflated and just dragged along side the kayak in case you capsize again...just pull it back next to you and roll up with it again. I think its a great product....but something you don't need if paddling with others and assistance would be available.

[Nick Schade]

When paddling alone in the cold months I keep a half inflated paddlefloat on the deck to use in case I capsize and fail to roll up with the paddle (rolling using the half inflated paddlefloat is very doable and I do practice with it). The roll-aid device (assuming I can depend on the CO2 inflation) would alleviate the need for the inflated paddlefloat on my deck.

I think the only questions for the roll-aid device are how dependable is the CO2 inflation and can you roll up once it is inflated? You can practice to your hearts content with it manually inflated.

Again, the reliability of the device itself is not what I question, it is the reliability of the user to make it function as intended. If you practice with a half-inflated paddle float in real-life conditions so you know its idiosyncrasies, you are better off with it than the roll-aid device.

Remember, the conditions that create a capsize are generally outside of your practiced abilities. If your reflexive abilities were good enough you would not have capsized. While it may seem like a simple thing to pull a handle on the roll-aid, it is also a simple thing to throw a brace, yet you have already failed at that. It is a simple thing to roll with out breaking a paddle, yet you failed at that. Now you are going to do one more simple thing, but one that you have never tried in similar circumstances.

The circumstances of an unexpected capsize are by definition unexpected and with that novelty comes a whole boat-load other unexpected circumstances. Unless you have practiced the whole roll-aid process in similar circumstances you can not say you know it will work, because of that word "unexpected".

My point here has nothing to do with the device itself. In a word, I "expect" it can work easily, but given that it costs $12.50 every time you practice I doubt many people are willing to give the device the tests and practice required to know what to expect in real conditions.

[scamlin]

Leon:

Found this clip on YouTube: I think it illustrates the concept:

Scott

[JohnHuth]

That gizmo looks too complicated to me. I'd surely mess up with it, but then again, I'm kind of clumsy.

I had to teach a paddle-float reentry a few weeks ago, I was just tagging along with some instructors, and they told me to go demonstrate it. I realized that I hadn't done one of those in years. I was worried sick that I'd do it all wrong - but the instructor said "you see how he's keeping his weight on the paddle..." etc etc. My reaction was "phew....I didn't think I could do it properly.."

[leong]

I had to teach a paddle-float reentry a few weeks ago, I was just tagging along with some instructors, and they told me to go demonstrate it. I realized that I hadn't done one of those in years. I was worried sick that I'd do it all wrong - but the instructor said "you see how he's keeping his weight on the paddle..." etc etc. My reaction was "phew....I didn't think I could do it properly.."

After a wet exit I put a partially inflated paddle-float on the paddle and then do a re-entry and roll. Climbing aboard using the paddle/paddle-float as an outrigger is much more difficult than re-entry and rolling.

[Bill Gwynn]

Climbing aboard using the paddle/paddle-float as an outrigger is much more difficult than re-entry and rolling.

I agree that a R&R is easier for someone that has a roll, or maybe beginning to work on a roll. But, for someone that has zero experience rolling, the R&R would be difficult. I still teach and practice the standard paddle float re-entry. You never know when you may need it, or need to teach it to someone.

[leong]

I agree that a R&R is easier for someone that has a roll, or maybe beginning to work on a roll. But, for someone that has zero experience rolling, the R&R would be difficult. I still teach and practice the standard paddle float re-entry. You never know when you may need it, or need to teach it to someone.

Yes, Bill, I agree ... I also practice the standard paddle-float re-entry. But my favorite way to do a R&R is without the paddle. I grab the fully inflated paddle-float and pull my self up. Of course, this method requires that you have at least a hip snap.

So here's my sequence when I capsize (it may be different for others):

1. Roll up, but if this fails and you have a roll-aid device then 2, else 3

2. Grab the handle of the roll-aid device and use it to roll up

3. wet exit and either 4, 5 or 6 (in that order for me)

4. Inflate paddle-float, re-enter and use paddle-float to pull yourself up

5. Inflate paddle-float and place on paddle, re-enter and use paddle to roll up

6. Do a standard paddle-float re-entry.

In rough conditons no. 6 doesn't work well for me, especially in a tippy boat. I think wet exiting (especially in cold water and rough conditions) should be avoided if possible. So make sure your roll works, but if it doesn't (for whatever reason) then this brings us back full circle. The roll-aid device allows you to do the float aided roll-up without first wet exiting to inflate a float.

[Bill Gwynn]

Interesting, my preferred method after a wet exit is to just do an R&R without a paddle float first, then if that is not working for me, is to inflate the float and put it on the paddle and R&R. I hadn't ever thought of just using the float without the paddle in a real situation. (Although I have used just the float when practicing to learn different types of rolls.) I guess I have always figured that if I am in the water swimming and need to take the time to inflate my float, I may as well stick it on the paddle. That way I have some additional support while I am squaring myself away. I suppose that in certain situations, there may be a benefit to not putting it on the paddle and having one less thing to do after getting back upright. It does allow you to just grab your paddle and get on your way without having to take the time to remove the float. As always, these conversations bring out some thought provoking alternatives. Thanks for engaging my brain.

[Phil Allen]

Not to extend this thread, but anybody tried to use one of the foam paddlefloats as a "roll-aid"? If it worked sufficiently, it might be easier, cheaper and more reliable than an auto-inflator based device.

Phil

[Bill Gwynn]

The foam floats work just as well. The problem (at least for me) is where to store the thing. I like a clean deck. I know some people use them exclusively in the winter when quick deployment is a concern.

[Gcosloy]

The foam float should work fine as an aid to the end of a paddle in a R&R. However it provides much less buoyancy than the blow up versions. I am able to roll up with the latter alone in both hands but not with the foam version in my hands. As far as failing to roll and needing other back up methods the first option after failure during the standard sweep or C to C roll should be employing the Pawlata or extended sweep roll. After learning it I have never failed to roll up even after 2 or 3 failed standard sweep attempts. Of course one needs to practice this too, like any other rescue method. This also of course depends on either good breath control during multiple failures or each failed attempt allowing one to catch a new breath of air.

[risingsn]

Not to extend this thread, but anybody tried to use one of the foam paddlefloats as a "roll-aid"? If it worked sufficiently, it might be easier, cheaper and more reliable than an auto-inflator based device.

Phil

Hi Phil, I have used them w/ teaching rolling. The problem with them for this use is that it would have to be stored on deck for quick access & take up a lot of room. I prefer nothing on my deck. That would also be one (but not the most important) of my objections to the 'roll aid'.

[lupin]

If you really do want to practice Hand rolls, might I suggest a swimmers paddle(flat piece of plastic that attaches to the hand to help in perfecting swim strokes)? It takes zero room on the deck yet in a roll condition, it makes rolling the kayak ridiculously easy. You do need to practice it but it is a good way to perfect the hand roll and improve rolling abilities.

Éric

[risingsn]

If you really do want to practice Hand rolls, might I suggest a swimmers paddle(flat piece of plastic that attaches to the hand to help in perfecting swim strokes)? It takes zero room on the deck yet in a roll condition, it makes rolling the kayak ridiculously easy. You do need to practice it but it is a good way to perfect the hand roll and improve rolling abilities.

Éric

A question for hand rollers. Is this going to be effective in the conditions that might capsize an experienced paddler? If after capsizing a good roller can't roll up w/ a paddle, will they be able to hand roll up?

[rcohn]

A question for hand rollers. Is this going to be effective in the conditions that might capsize an experienced paddler? If after capsizing a good roller can't roll up w/ a paddle, will they be able to hand roll up?

Who knows? I've never used a wing paddle, but I would be surprised if it was easier to develop a combat hand roll than to learn a reliable roll with the paddle. For me, the ease (or ability) to hand roll a kayak is largely proportional to my ability to lean back onto the back deck. If the rear deck is too high, I can only do a few easy rolls in the kayak. Spine flexibility is a factor here as well.

If you want to try a hand roll, put the paddle in your opposite hand and use it as a counterweight. This would only work if you can do a one-handed Greenland style hand roll.

If you really do want to practice Hand rolls, might I suggest a swimmers paddle(flat piece of plastic that attaches to the hand to help in perfecting swim strokes)? It takes zero room on the deck yet in a roll condition, it makes rolling the kayak ridiculously easy. You do need to practice it but it is a good way to perfect the hand roll and improve rolling abilities.

I would think some type of norsaq (aka. rolling stick) type rolling aid would be easier to use, a simple piece of wood you can grip with one hand would work fine. You need to put on a swimmer’s hand paddle, which would waste time underwater, especially while trying to hold onto the paddle as well. A norsaq provides greater support and you just need to grab it and roll.

Ralph

[leong]

Who knows? I've never used a wing paddle, but I would be surprised if it was easier to develop a combat hand roll than to learn a reliable roll with the paddle. For me, the ease (or ability) to hand roll a kayak is largely proportional to my ability to lean back onto the back deck. If the rear deck is too high, I can only do a few easy rolls in the kayak. Spine flexibility is a factor here as well.

If you want to try a hand roll, put the paddle in your opposite hand and use it as a counterweight. This would only work if you can do a one-handed Greenland style hand roll.

I would think some type of norsaq (aka. rolling stick) type rolling aid would be easier to use, a simple piece of wood you can grip with one hand would work fine. You need to put on a swimmer’s hand paddle, which would waste time underwater, especially while trying to hold onto the paddle as well. A norsaq provides greater support and you just need to grab it and roll.

Ralph

I'm sure a hand roll is much more difficult than rolling with a wing or any kind of paddle. There were two reasons why I mentioned learning the hand roll:

1. I almost dropped the wing when I capsized.

2. I assume that mastering the hand roll would improve my ability to roll with any paddle.

BTW, rolling with the wing paddle is fairly easy ... I've done it numerous times since the original post.

[JohnHuth]

What's difficult about rolling with a wing paddle? I've never used one, so I don't know. I was imagining that the attack angle would be different than with a Euro blade.

[rick stoehrer]

What's difficult about rolling with a wing paddle? I've never used one, so I don't know. I was imagining that the attack angle would be different than with a Euro blade.

sweep rolls (combat and extended) are about the same....big lift.

never tried a c/c or any other thing.

[Gcosloy]

What's difficult about rolling with a wing paddle? I've never used one, so I don't know. I was imagining that the attack angle would be different than with a Euro blade.

The attack angle is similar, however because of the exaggerated spoon shape of the wing, a small deviation from that angle prompts a quick dive. Much more sensitive to the angle than a standard euro paddle.