Failed Roll

[leong]

Yesterday while paddling towards Marblehead from Manchester in fairly strong winds (about 20 knots sustained with stronger gusts) I decided to deploy my rudder and turn back. With one hand on my paddle I reached back with the other hand to grab the rudder control line. I suddenly realized I was going over and couldn't move fast enough to perform any brace. After failing three attempts to roll ... I wet exited and did a paddle-float assisted reentry and roll. (I think I failed the roll because I haven't practiced enough with the wing paddle.)

Next two items on my to-do list:

1) Master rolling with the wing paddle and 2) Learn the hand roll (Walden Pond, here I come). Also, the following safety device on my deck may be a good idea:

Roll-Aid BackUp --It will immediately inflate and hold your hand at the surface with 80 lbs of buoyant force so you can do a 'solo Eskimo rescue'.

http://www.roll-aid.com/index.html#top_main

Anyone have any knowledge or experience with this product?

[Gcosloy]

Let me know when you want to go to Walden. I'll be happy to spot you. I think the problem with the wing is that it is easy to stall and dive because of it's unique power face. I think it might be easier to learn to roll with it's back face!

[wilsoj2]

Roll Aid Back-Up is a valuable last resort when your roll fails. If you have a hip snap the Roll-Aid provides enough flotation to get you up.

[spider]

Though I have't tried a wing paddle, I have also noticed with various other paddles that if I miss my roll and have to set up again I will also use the back side of the paddle for the next roll. Often it gives me far more lift and not dive if I'm not in perfect form.

[ccarlson]

I've never tried a wing paddle so not sure whether this will work or not.... I've used sculling to the surface as a backup for a failed roll attempt. Just scull to the surface, get some air then either flick upright or resubmerge and give the roll another go.

Carl C.

[rick stoehrer]

I've never tried a wing paddle so not sure whether this will work or not.... I've used sculling to the surface as a backup for a failed roll attempt. Just scull to the surface, get some air then either flick upright or resubmerge and give the roll another go.

Carl C.

wing gives huge lift on sweep roll. i don't think you'd be able to scull up with it...

i think i'd be careful where my arm/shoulder was when i suddenly deployed 80 pounds of buoyancy attached to my hand...

[Nick Schade]

Also, the following safety device on my deck may be a good idea:

Roll-Aid BackUp --It will immediately inflate and hold your hand at the surface with 80 lbs of buoyant force so you can do a 'solo Eskimo rescue'.

http://www.roll-aid.com/index.html#top_main

Anyone have any knowledge or experience with this product?

I don't have any experience with the product, but would note that any practice technique will require practice. With the Roll-Aid you will want to learn to grab it without fumbling, pulling the handle with a secure grip, deploying the device on the easiest side to roll up, etc.

You can't expect to be able to use it well without extensive and on-going practice. Each practice attempt will require expending one CO2 cartridge. Each cartridge costs $12.50, so that is how much it will cost you every time you make a practice attempt.

Personally, I am pretty cheap. I can't imagine that I would want to spend that much money for each 6 second practice attempt. I suppose it may still be worth having even if you never practice, but would it really be a resource you would want to count on in a real pinch?

[leong]

I don't have any experience with the product, but would note that any practice technique will require practice. With the Roll-Aid you will want to learn to grab it without fumbling, pulling the handle with a secure grip, deploying the device on the easiest side to roll up, etc.

You can't expect to be able to use it well without extensive and on-going practice. Each practice attempt will require expending one CO2 cartridge. Each cartridge costs $12.50, so that is how much it will cost you every time you make a practice attempt.

Personally, I am pretty cheap. I can't imagine that I would want to spend that much money for each 6 second practice attempt. I suppose it may still be worth having even if you never practice, but would it really be a resource you would want to count on in a real pinch?

The maker recommends that you manually inflate the device and practice that way. I'd do one "live" dress rehearsal using the CO2 inflator.

"count on in a real pinch?" It's a case of probabilities; you drive carefully, but if you do have an accident you hope the car air bags work as advertised.

It takes several seconds for the bag to fully deploy so I don't think it will hurt your shoulder.

Also, the maker recommends that you have a reliable roll and other ways to save yourself (e.g. wet exit).

The device can be used as a paddle float.

[Lbeale]

Yesterday while paddling towards Marblehead from Manchester in fairly strong winds (about 20 knots sustained with stronger gusts) I decided to deploy my rudder and turn back. With one hand on my paddle I reached back with the other hand to grab the rudder control line. I suddenly realized I was going over and couldn't move fast enough to perform any brace. After failing three attempts to roll ... I wet exited and did a paddle-float assisted reentry and roll. (I think I failed the roll because I haven't practiced enough with the wing paddle.)

Next two items on my to-do list:

1) Master rolling with the wing paddle and 2) Learn the hand roll (Walden Pond, here I come). Also, the following safety device on my deck may be a good idea:

Roll-Aid BackUp --It will immediately inflate and hold your hand at the surface with 80 lbs of buoyant force so you can do a 'solo Eskimo rescue'.

http://www.roll-aid.com/index.html#top_main

Hey Leong,

If you plan on going to Walden to practice rolling with your wing, let me know--I want to practice rolling with my wing as well--we could spot each other--or anyone else who wants to practice rolling with or without a paddle--les

Anyone have any knowledge or experience with this product?

[John Leonard]

What about stowing a greenland stick on the front deck? Easy to deploy, easy to re-store, let's you roll up AND paddle out of trouble in the event of a broken or dropped paddle.... Pretty easy to set up with and darn near impossible to miss the roll. More uses and less bulky than the roll aid too.

[leong]

What about stowing a greenland stick on the front deck? Easy to deploy, easy to re-store, let's you roll up AND paddle out of trouble in the event of a broken or dropped paddle.... Pretty easy to set up with and darn near impossible to miss the roll. More uses and less bulky than the roll aid too.

Good Point John, I'll try a stick roll next time I get a chance.

You could put these guys out of business ... perhaps most of their business comes from paddlers that can't roll at all.

[Nick Schade]

The maker recommends that you manually inflate the device and practice that way. I'd do one "live" dress rehearsal using the CO2 inflator.

If you are confident that you can completely trust the marketing information of the manufacturer, this course of action makes sense. Their website http://www.roll-aid.com/using.html does provide tips on how to make the device work best, if you can burn these tips into your brain in one practice attempt, you should be good to go. Personally, I think that if I was still hanging upside down in rough seas after attempting to roll a few times, I would be starting to panic and may not remember exactly how it worked that one time and fail to deploy the device exactly as suggested. But, so long as you can maintain your faith in the manufacturers hype as you hang there you should be able to stay calm and do it right. After all, why would the manufacturer try to make it sound easier than it really is?

[Nancy Hill]

I have no experience with that product, but have practiced with an avataq.

http://www.greenlandpaddle.com/index.php?o...&Itemid=102

Someone's idea of putting a spare Greenland paddle on deck to grab is not a bad idea. It is not difficult to free it from the deck rigging, as long as you keep your cool and can hold your breath long enough. Rolling with the Greenland paddle is far easier than using any other type of paddle. The only problem is that you would have to relinquish control of the other paddle and then retrieve it after you were up. That could be difficult if conditions were rough.

-Nancy

[cathyfoley]

Yesterday while paddling towards Marblehead from Manchester in fairly strong winds (about 20 knots sustained with stronger gusts) I decided to deploy my rudder and turn back. With one hand on my paddle I reached back with the other hand to grab the rudder control line. I suddenly realized I was going over and couldn't move fast enough to perform any brace. After failing three attempts to roll ... I wet exited and did a paddle-float assisted reentry and roll. (I think I failed the roll because I haven't practiced enough with the wing paddle.)

Next two items on my to-do list:

1) Master rolling with the wing paddle and 2) Learn the hand roll (Walden Pond, here I come). Also, the following safety device on my deck may be a good idea:

Roll-Aid BackUp --It will immediately inflate and hold your hand at the surface with 80 lbs of buoyant force so you can do a 'solo Eskimo rescue'.

http://www.roll-aid.com/index.html#top_main

Anyone have any knowledge or experience with this product?

Yes...I have owned one for years. I now use it when I paddle alone in cold water. It's a great product and easy to use. It deploys in 4 sec. All you have to do is place one hand on top of the inflated bag and pull yourself upright. It cannot be repacked easily on the water.....but has a nice tehter...so if you deploy it...clip in right behind the cockpit and use it again if you capsize a 2nd or thrid time. At a price of over $100 and $12.50 per 68 gram CO2 cartridge, not something you want to practice with often. Once you've done it once....you don't need more practice...its extremely easy to use. I highly recommend it to anyone who paddles alone..whether they can roll or not.

[cathyfoley]

I don't have any experience with the product, but would note that any practice technique will require practice. With the Roll-Aid you will want to learn to grab it without fumbling, pulling the handle with a secure grip, deploying the device on the easiest side to roll up, etc.

You can't expect to be able to use it well without extensive and on-going practice. Each practice attempt will require expending one CO2 cartridge. Each cartridge costs $12.50, so that is how much it will cost you every time you make a practice attempt.

Personally, I am pretty cheap. I can't imagine that I would want to spend that much money for each 6 second practice attempt. I suppose it may still be worth having even if you never practice, but would it really be a resource you would want to count on in a real pinch?

Nick:

I agree that practicing "live" once is a good idea. I did when I bought mine and let several others burn through a few cartridges. But at $12.50, not something you need to do often. I've had mine 5 years. I just did a "practice" roll with it after it being "armed" for more than 2 years and never used. It worked perfect. The craftmanship is really good in this thing. If you maintain it, it should work when needed. That said, nothing is perfect and I certainly don't use it as my only option...its really a last option. You can buy 68 gram beer keg cartridges, but they use a different size threat, so the Roll-Aid would have to be re-tooled at a machine shop. I've looked into it and they said it can be done.

[leong]

Yes...I have owned one for years. I now use it when I paddle alone in cold water. It's a great product and easy to use.

Thanks Cathy

Does it also alleviate the need to carry a regular paddlefloat? That is, after inflation (manually or with the cartridge) can you use it for a paddlefloat self-rescue (e.g. put it on the paddle blade to either help climb back onto the kayak and/or to help with a re-entry and roll)?

[Brian Nystrom]

Someone's idea of putting a spare Greenland paddle on deck to grab is not a bad idea. It is not difficult to free it from the deck rigging, as long as you keep your cool and can hold your breath long enough.

I can tell you from personal experience that it takes about a half second to pull a GP "storm" off your foredeck in an emergency situation. I've needed to to it twice and it worked perfectly both times. I carry it as a spare paddle anyway, so there's no extra gear or expense involved. I don't like the idea of extraneous single-purpose gear and prefer to carry as little on the deck of my boats as possible. Generally, I have the spare paddle, a contact tow, a chart and that's it.

Rolling with the Greenland paddle is far easier than using any other type of paddle. The only problem is that you would have to relinquish control of the other paddle and then retrieve it after you were up. That could be difficult if conditions were rough.

If you have your main paddle in your hands, why wouldn't you roll with it instead? The only times I've ever found it necessary to use my spare was when my primary paddle was ripped from my grasp.

[djlewis]

Yes, it's easier to roll with a greenland paddle. But it's still not a trivial skill, and it's still subject to the need for practice and the vagaries of your personal condition and the sea state when you come to actually need the roll.

So IMHO it's not a substitute for non-roll fallbacks for those who paddle solo. Fallbacks like paddle floats can fail too, but at least they depend a lot less on personal performance of a complex, fallible skill in uncertain conditions.

Of course, the real culprit in such situations may be paddling solo. No other single factor reduces your safety margin anywhere near as much as choosing to paddle the ocean without companions.

--David.

[Nick Schade]

Nick:

I agree that practicing "live" once is a good idea. I did when I bought mine and let several others burn through a few cartridges. But at $12.50, not something you need to do often.

I am always leery of anything that purports to be so easy you don't need to practice. One use does not constitute practice at all. You are putting your confidence in gear when it is usually not the gear that fails.

Any conditions that cause a capsize are apt to be somewhat chaotic. Conditions that cause you to fail to roll, break a paddle, or loose it all together are probably worse yet. Many people can easily roll in a pool yet pop their skirt immediately in real situations. This is not an equipment failure, it is the natural reaction of someone whose life is at risk.

If you would not paddle solo without the device, you probably should not be paddling solo at all. Unless you have tried the whole system at least a half dozen times in conditions resembling those where you may actually capsize you can not authoritatively say it will work for you in those conditions.

[Pintail]

Brookes, the tuiliq people, also make an inflateable bladder for same purpose; but you pre-inflate it (with your own breath) and it lives on your deck -- but I am with Mr. Nystrom on keeping the latter clear.

I also carry a greenland paddle for the ease, convenience and speed with which it might be employed (ie, grabbed). Greenland paddles <do> make rolling seem easy and may be useful in learning other, more advanced rolls -- like a storm roll -- which could serve you well in waves, Leon?

Practice <not only> on flat water, once you think you have your roll "nailed".

[leong]

If you would not paddle solo without the device, you probably should not be paddling solo at all. Unless you have tried the whole system at least a half dozen times in conditions resembling those where you may actually capsize you can not authoritatively say it will work for you in those conditions.

The question is not whether you would not travel solo without the device .... The question is when you are travelling solo would you be safer with the device. I travel solo most of the time. It's rational and logical to take a device aboard that might save your life if your roll fails (say a VHF radio that might fail or the roll-aid under discussion, or a GPS that might fail, etc.).

When paddling alone in the cold months I keep a half inflated paddlefloat on the deck to use in case I capsize and fail to roll up with the paddle (rolling using the half inflated paddlefloat is very doable and I do practice with it). The roll-aid device (assuming I can depend on the CO2 inflation) would alleviate the need for the inflated paddlefloat on my deck.

I think the only questions for the roll-aid device are how dependable is the CO2 inflation and can you roll up once it is inflated? You can practice to your hearts content with it manually inflated.

[rick stoehrer]

The question is not whether you would not travel solo without the device .... The question is when you are travelling solo would you be safer with the device. I travel solo most of the time. It's rational and logical to take a device aboard that might save your life if your roll fails (say a VHF radio that might fail or the roll-aid under discussion, or a GPS that might fail, etc.).

When paddling alone in the cold months I keep a half inflated paddlefloat on the deck to use in case I capsize and fail to roll up with the paddle (rolling using the half inflated paddlefloat is very doable and I do practice with it). The roll-aid device (assuming I can depend on the CO2 inflation) would alleviate the need for the inflated paddlefloat on my deck.

I think the only questions for the roll-aid device are how dependable is the CO2 inflation and can you roll up once it is inflated? You can practice to your hearts content with it manually inflated.

"...when paddling alone in the cold months..."

i'd get a road id bracelet with your name/emergency contact phone #. won't help with any rescue but it's good for the recovery.

i wear one and i won't do what you do...seems like a reasonable step.

[Gcosloy]

Just another point of view. We all think we're immortal, until the unthinkable happens. I'm not talking about whether you can roll or not but whether you have a reasonable chance of saving your life if the unthinkable happens. Here are a few to ponder: Getting hit by a jet ski. Struck by lightening.(Lately, the odds have improved for this one!) Having a coronary or stroke. Passing out from heat stroke. Dislocating your shoulder. Your chances of survival are immeasurably greater if you're not paddling alone and if at least one of you has a vhf radio.

[leong]

If you have your main paddle in your hands, why wouldn't you roll with it instead?

The answer is in the original post for this thread!

[leong]

Dear Folks,

Let's end this thread now, unless you have additional first hand information regarding the roll-aid device. It's getting way offf base. Thank you Cathy; you provided probably all the information that I need. Also thank you John for the idea about using a GP as a backup.

Thank everyone else for your concerns about safety. If you don't want me paddling alone join me Thursday ... it's my last round trip around Cape Ann before Saturday's Blackburn Challenge race. I'm planning to do it in less than 3.5 hours (the complete loop) or 3.25 hours for the Blackburn starting line to the greasy pole.