JohnHuth Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Does anyone know about this? I'd heard from someone on this board about a kayak that was run over by a power boat - was it in Sea Kayaker? In any case, I now have some hints that maybe there's a law in the works in Maine that would require kayakers to have a flag that's 4' above the kayak - 8"x11" - and if you don't it's a fine (maybe $100). I don't know this for a fact, but it seems to be something under consideration. Anyone know about this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Allen Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 There is a story in this months Sea Kayaker about a powerboat kayak collision. But it was at night, on a lake and the powerboat was going ~50mph by their own admission. Amazingly, no one was injured though the kayak was trashed. Not sure that a flag would have helped. Thinking about it, if kayakers were made to have a flag 4' off the deck, what would that make us look more, or less, like a mooring buoy or lobster pot???? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_Crouse Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Not sure about the status of the law but I think this happened a few years ago too and it was defeated. The article was in this months Sea Kayaker, a flag wouldn't have done any good. The accident happened at night and the operator of the power boat was intoxicated. The kayakers shined lights at the power boater but he didn't change course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Allen Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Google is your friend (and a great distraction when I'm supposed to be writing a proposal). There is a watercraft safety bill working its way through the legislature in the State of Maine. Proponents summarize it as gradually requiring a once in a lifetime boater safety edu. course. Full text can be found here : http://www.mainelegislature.org/legis/bill...ts/LD206701.asp A quick scan didn't turn up anything kayakcentric. Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spuglisi Posted May 12, 2008 Share Posted May 12, 2008 Not sure about the status of the law but I think this happened a few years ago too and it was defeated. The article was in this months Sea Kayaker, a flag wouldn't have done any good. The accident happened at night and the operator of the power boat was intoxicated. The kayakers shined lights at the power boater but he didn't change course. Well, that certainly sounds like a typicaly uninformed and irrelevant "fix" for a serious problem. Maybe it didn't occur to anyone that the root cause of the incident just may have been the intoxicated power boater and not the well lit kayak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted May 13, 2008 Share Posted May 13, 2008 Not sure about the status of the law but I think this happened a few years ago too and it was defeated. A flag law was proposed either in ME or MA a few years ago by someone who knew nothing about kayaking. After a write-in campaign explaining that a flag would make a kayak less stable in wind and inhibit kayakers' ability to roll, the proposal was withdrawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccarlson Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 In any case, I now have some hints that maybe there's a law in the works in Maine that would require kayakers to have a flag that's 4' above the kayak - 8"x11" - and if you don't it's a fine (maybe $100). I don't know this for a fact, but it seems to be something under consideration. Anyone know about this? I was just made aware that the Town of Bremen (west side of Muscongus Bay) passed a flag law this past Winter. It requires all kayaks to carry an 8" X 11" flag 4 feet above the deck. It was stated that the reason for the new ordinance was to protect lobstermen from liability, not to protect kayakers. The Marine Patrol has indicated that they will not enforce this ordinance and questioned whether or not the DA would even hear these cases. The Harbor Master said that they would probably issues warnings this season and will look again at the ordinance. This kind of law is, of course, totally irrational. However, it does suggest that there is a perceived problem with visibility of kayaks on the water. Any of us who have tried to spot a kayak or even a group of kayaks on the water in any chop at all can probably confirm that visibility can, indeed, be an issue. I will be adding hi-vis orange tape to my black paddle blades as, in my experience, this makes a considerable difference. Not cool looking but otherwise a reasonable way to help other boaters see us? Carl C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Allen Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 Is it time for more traffic cone orange boats?? or would that really make us speed bumps? Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyork Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 From testimony of other boaters, this stuff does seem to add increased visibility to the daytime kayak paddler. Please share the source of the tape Carl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 I was just made aware that the Town of Bremen (west side of Muscongus Bay) passed a flag law this past Winter. It requires all kayaks to carry an 8" X 11" flag 4 feet above the deck. It was stated that the reason for the new ordinance was to protect lobstermen from liability, not to protect kayakers. The Marine Patrol has indicated that they will not enforce this ordinance and questioned whether or not the DA would even hear these cases. The Harbor Master said that they would probably issues warnings this season and will look again at the ordinance. This kind of law is, of course, totally irrational. However, it does suggest that there is a perceived problem with visibility of kayaks on the water. Any of us who have tried to spot a kayak or even a group of kayaks on the water in any chop at all can probably confirm that visibility can, indeed, be an issue. I will be adding hi-vis orange tape to my black paddle blades as, in my experience, this makes a considerable difference. Not cool looking but otherwise a reasonable way to help other boaters see us? Carl C. the surface of muscongus bay looks like a confetti factory has exploded there are so many THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of pots in view of little thief island. i can understand that bremen would be looking out for the interests of lobstermen...talk about yer bread and butter industry. it's an area where being aware of what the hell you're doing in a little kayak would be very important...can be foggy, lotsa islands and about a bizillion lobsterpots all being worked by how many hundred of boats? keeping out of the way and anticipating what a working boat will/should be doing is not only a point of consideration but safety for all involved. with that in mind, this is silly. the problem is more one of unseasoned, unknowing, uncaring or just plain dumb sea kayakers getting in the way of working lobster boats. you know that's what drives this....BUT if enforced, this will only accomplish that all kayakers be decked out with what is a safety hazard and impediment on their decks and STILL some of these bone heads are going to be in the way of the lobsterboats. the orange reflective tape is a good idea for visibility but better still is just staying or getting out of the way. i think this comes back down to education vs legislation....you can't outlaw dumb. maine..the way life should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccarlson Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 From testimony of other boaters, this stuff does seem to add increased visibility to the daytime kayak paddler. Please share the source of the tape Carl. I got mine from Gempler's. It used to come on a roll but now appears to be available only in a 6-pak of strips. Flourescent Tape Strips Carl C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted May 21, 2008 Share Posted May 21, 2008 but better still is just staying or getting out of the way. Since I will be in that area soon, does anyone have knowledge about the location of the "lanes" used by lobstermen to get home/unload in the Friendship, Port Clyde, Broad Cove and Round Pond areas? When in the fog, hearing a boat nearby pulling pots is one thing, hearing one reved up on a long haul home is another. Fog or no, never a good idea to impede their getting home after a hard day. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 the problem is more one of unseasoned, unknowing, uncaring or just plain dumb sea kayakers getting in the way of working lobster boats. you know that's what drives this... While that's certainly true, that's hardly the whole story. You've spent a lot of time up there so you know that a big part of the problem is lobster boat owners who act like they own the water and don't pay any attention to anything other than their pots. While kayaker certainly need to avoid confrontations with them as much as possible, it can be damn near unavoidable with the number of lobster boats running around unpredictably. This kind of legislation should be pushed back against. Lobstermen that hit kayaks should be treated no differently than truck drivers that hit other cars. The fact that they're on the public waterway making a living doesn't absolve them of their responsibility to look out for other vessels, whatever they may be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingsn Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I was just made aware that the Town of Bremen (west side of Muscongus Bay) passed a flag law this past Winter. It requires all kayaks to carry an 8" X 11" flag 4 feet above the deck. It was stated that the reason for the new ordinance was to protect lobstermen from liability, not to protect kayakers. The Marine Patrol has indicated that they will not enforce this ordinance and questioned whether or not the DA would even hear these cases. The Harbor Master said that they would probably issues warnings this season and will look again at the ordinance. This kind of law is, of course, totally irrational. However, it does suggest that there is a perceived problem with visibility of kayaks on the water. Any of us who have tried to spot a kayak or even a group of kayaks on the water in any chop at all can probably confirm that visibility can, indeed, be an issue. I will be adding hi-vis orange tape to my black paddle blades as, in my experience, this makes a considerable difference. Not cool looking but otherwise a reasonable way to help other boaters see us? Carl C. I grew up living on boats & islands & have been running boats since I was about 9. I have taken all of the USPS navigation courses through JN. I also worked on the water commercially in the summers (clamming) during my high school years. So when I say a law like this is simply liberal lawyer drivel, I have some experience to speak from. Who would propose a law & intend not to enforce it only so that a careless 'captain' could say "the kayak didn't have the mandatory flag" to avoid liability. A 'captain' is always responcibly for his vessel and any damage it might do. Incidentally this includes damage caused by it's wake. Currently I live in Florida & regularly watch the lobstermen work Sarasota Bay. They are usually in an 18-20 ft. outboard open skiff. They are not watching where they are going, their eyes are in the boat working with their traps as they move to the next trap. As to the fog question, you are not supposed to go fasted than the site distance which will allow you to stop your vessel before a collision. If you run into someone if the fog it is you fault assuming the have the proper lights, etc. This is an example of a big problem we have with our society, we have been taught that we are not responsible for our actions! As a kayaker I am a big believer in "The Law of Tonnage". If it is bigger than me I'm going to give it the right of way if it has it or not. This said I don't think a kayak has ever sprinted in front of a lobster boat so that it could be hit. Who ever proposed this should be taken to task! Well, their is my 2 cents with a little bit of a rant thrown in for good measure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 I grew up living on boats & islands & have been running boats since I was about 9. I have taken all of the USPS navigation courses through JN. the (U)nited (S)tates (P)ostal (S)ervice runs a nav course? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cathyfoley Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 From testimony of other boaters, this stuff does seem to add increased visibility to the daytime kayak paddler. Please share the source of the tape Carl. After a close call with a very fast moving motor boat in Gloucester harbor afew years ago, I added the tape Carl recommended......its very bright...can easily be seen half a mile away, and I have had no close calls with boats since adding it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 the orange reflective tape is a good idea for visibility but better still is just staying or getting out of the way. Not as a response to anything in particular, but this timid woodland creature acts as follows: 1. I treat lobster boats like seals hauled out, stay much farther away than you think is necessary if at all possible to avoid causing problems. 2. Keep in mind they are working and you are playing. 3. Always check the buoy on the boat with the buoys on the water and give his a wide berth. 4. Never, ever approach on the non working side. 5. Just stop and watch to understand how its working and do not impede let alone interfere. 6. Act like a vessel, follow the rules, be friendly, give them every courtesy. 7. Stay away from wharfs and lanes when they are trying to get home. 8. Don't expect them to see you, and don't get in the position where it gets scary for everyone. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted May 22, 2008 Share Posted May 22, 2008 Are there any statistics for accidents/collisions between lobster boats and kayakers? There's been a lot of talk and hand wringing here about this issue , and I 've heard stories of near misses, but I'm not aware that collisions between the two every actually happen.. I've certainly never heard of any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingsn Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I grew up living on boats & islands & have been running boats since I was about 9. I have taken all of the USPS navigation courses through JN. the (U)nited (S)tates (P)ostal (S)ervice runs a nav course? If the post office doesn't give the courses you can try the United States Power Squadron (sorry, I couldn't resist) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccarlson Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 the (U)nited (S)tates (P)ostal (S)ervice runs a nav course? No, but the (U)nited (S)tates (P)ower (S)quadron does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
risingsn Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 After a close call with a very fast moving motor boat in Gloucester harbor afew years ago, I added the tape Carl recommended......its very bright...can easily be seen half a mile away, and I have had no close calls with boats since adding it. My guess is a 20mm flare gun would get their attention, especially when the shell is sailing across their bow...but I'm just sayin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Allen Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Are there any statistics for accidents/collisions between lobster boats and kayakers? There's been a lot of talk and hand wringing here about this issue , and I 've heard stories of near misses, but I'm not aware that collisions between the two every actually happen.. I've certainly never heard of any. Sea Kayaker (mag.) story this month from one on a LAKE in Maine from a few years ago. But stats I dont got Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mesbennett Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 I was not able to find the orange tape which I put on my Black Magic Paddle...except in the short strips. I did however find some same color duct tape which I have put on my new paddle. (Carl you can chime in here relative to the level of visibility it produced as you saw it last weekend at Jewell.) I also put solas reflective tape on the blades. I have lots left on the roll (bright orange) and would be happy to share with anyone. maryb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 Sea Kayaker (mag.) story this month from one on a LAKE in Maine from a few years ago. But stats I dont got A lobster boat on a lake? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Allen Posted May 23, 2008 Share Posted May 23, 2008 A lobster boat on a lake? Power boat, night, skipper had "had a few", but no, not a lobster boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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