replacement Carabiner/eye hook

[risingsn]

so...alright...next time your on the water don't have the paddler being towed assist at all...it sounds like even if you have the line running under the forward deck line before attaching closer to the tow-ee, that you would have some challenges in controlling the bow of that boat....how's that working? is there a big difference between running that line back closer to the center of the boat than just running it off of a bow deck line? the bow will stay in line better if the 'biner is attached farther forward.

the other reason i might not do that too is that if i have to tow you, then i'm in charge...i'll decide when you come off tow and then come release it when i want it...sometimes it's best to not let folks make their own decisions; hypothermia impairs judgment for instance or maybe you've got someone slow but proud and really dragging on the group and you need to boogie....sometimes if you remove someone's ability to make a decision, well...then the one you make is the one carried out.

Hi Rick, To answer your first question... it's worked well for me. It does depend on the layout of the RDFs on the deck. As to your other concern, I set it up this way so that the assisting kayaker can control his contact with the victim, in an emergency he can release the tow. In really nasty conditions if the victim & assisting kayakers need to separate I may not be able to safely do the release. I do agree with your concern about the victim wanting to release, again the assisting kayaker is in control of the release from this point. I do not set it up this way if it is a single tow wo/ assistance. In an emergency I terminate the tow by releasing my belt. You are right, the rescuer is in charge of the rescue & has priority, followed by other members of the group (assisting kayaker), bystanders & last in line of priority is the victim.

[risingsn]

Rick, I think you may be misunderstanding this other method. This is for towing two boats (victim and stabilizer). The stabilizing boat is the one in control. The tow line goes thru the victims bow, then thru the stabilizers bow, then back to a line within reach of the stabilizing paddler. This method allows a quicker disconnect by the stabilizer (no need to paddle forward to the victims bow). I saw this method used on Jeff and Simon's Incident Management class.

Thanks Bill...thats it.

[rick stoehrer]

Hi Rick, To answer your first question... it's worked well for me. It does depend on the layout of the RDFs on the deck. As to your other concern, I set it up this way so that the assisting kayaker can control his contact with the victim, in an emergency he can release the tow. In really nasty conditions if the victim & assisting kayakers need to separate I may not be able to safely do the release. I do agree with your concern about the victim wanting to release, again the assisting kayaker is in control of the release from this point. I do not set it up this way if it is a single tow wo/ assistance. In an emergency I terminate the tow by releasing my belt. You are right, the rescuer is in charge of the rescue & has priority, followed by other members of the group (assisting kayaker), bystanders & last in line of priority is the victim.

yes, i didn't read carefully and misunderstood you to be towing solo...without an assist...see posts between billy and i up a bit.

in both riggings the assist can get out of the lineup...and in both riggings the issue is whether or not the 'biner/line gets caught up in deckline...in one scenario it COULD get hung up on the assist (clipping into vic) and in the rigging you seem to be talking about, on the vic (clipping into assist)..of the 2, probably the assist would be in a better place to deal with being hung up...i dunno...afterall you were just towing someone for some reason, right? are they ready to deal with something else if things get fouled? and then in clipping into the assist i wonder about controlling both bows....i'll give it a shot....but i have suspicion on which way i'm leaning.

[risingsn]

Valuable discussion on towing. I never understood the logic of having both boats clipped at the bow and now I know there is no logic to it.

Regarding strength and stress issues. Keep in mind that most knots reduce a lines strength by at least 30% if not more and the actual forces, especially dynamic ones, at points in the total system can be quite high even if the humans in the chain do do not perceive the loads as high. That said, I would expect most loads to be well under the limits of most gear, but since a failure could ruin your day better to err on the side of higher strength. As to floats and other stuff. As seamen we should all dread anything that involves lines which makes keeping them neat and tidy more difficult.

Ed Lawson

So Ed, What do you think the loads are or could be? Why do you think they are higher than we precieve them to be? Thanks, Chuck

[EEL]

Why do you think they are higher than we precieve them to be? Thanks, Chuck

I'm not sure these system dynamics would often occur in a towing situation, but if you have a rope with a sudden shock load on one end and a person tied or holding it on the other, the load felt by that person can vary widely depending upon the resistance/energy absorbing choke points that exist between the ends of the rope. In such a case, the person's perception of the forces on the system are much lower. As an example, in climbing the person "catching" a leader who falls can feel almost nothing while the leader certainly does at the end of a fall due to the rope running through carabiners and not being straight. This is helped by the stretchiness of climbing ropes, but still things get torn out of the rock, ropes get cut over edges, and stuff breaks at the "choke" points since the actual forces along the rope can get high.

In a simple direct tow I suppose this would not occur, but once you have a rope winding through various points and not running in a straight line; then these factors would come into play.

Ed Lawson

[Brian Nystrom]

In a simple direct tow I suppose this would not occur, but once you have a rope winding through various points and not running in a straight line; then these factors would come into play.

Winding through what "various points"? Worst case, the rope goes under the deck rigging on one boat and clips to another and the connection is essentially direct. There is no comparison between this and a typical climbing situation (I'm a climber, btw) where a rope may zig-zag or run over edges and abrasive surface, nor is there even a remote comparison between the forces generated in a leader fall and those involved in towing. While a leader fall can generate thousands of pounds of force, the forces involved in towing are in the tens of pounds, not even the hundred of pounds that many people surmise. Forces in the hundreds of pounds would rip deck tows off boats and injure paddlers using waist tows. Considering that the average paddler exerts only ~10 pounds of force per paddle stroke, there is no way one would be able to tow a boat if the forces involved were more than a few pounds. The only reason we use tow lines as thick as we do is to make them easier to handle, particularly if you need to haul on one with bare hands; the ropes themselves are typically much stronger than they need to be. When you get down to it, you could tow a kayak with 1/8" nylon or polyester cord.

[Nick Schade]

I replaced it w/ a SS biner that does not have a notch @ the gate. Bought it at west marine for about $20 & have had it for a few years wo/ problem.

I agree with the use of stainless steel snap hooks. Carabiners are typically designed for climbing use where they are only exposed to fresh water. Saltwater and aluminum do not mix and an aluminum biner will eventually fail. This usually starts with a stiff gate that no longer closes on its own. In the right conditions enough corrosion can occur in one day to transform the biner from fine to non-functioning. I've lost a several aluminum biners because I wasn't paying attention and didn't notice that the gates did not close when I expected them to. They just slipped off the rope and were gone. Aluminum carabiners just are not made to be used in a saltwater environment.

Hardware made for the sailing market is designed to hold up to full-time exposure to saltwater without failing. You can find snap hooks in a variety of styles made of stainless steel or bronze that will work reliably for a long time without corrosion. You can pretty much put them on your rope and forget about them - there is not a need to rinse and care for them in the same way as aluminum.

I also recommend those without a notch as the notch can snag and make it difficult to un-hook, but this can be a problem with many carabiners as well.

I have one of these on my towline:

http://www.bosunsupplies.com/products2.cfm?product=S0142

Simple and stronger than you will ever need:

http://www.bosunsupplies.com/products2.cfm?product=S0161

One way to get light is to go small:

http://www.bosunsupplies.com/products2.cfm?product=S0185

If you really like the carabiner form:

http://www.bosunsupplies.com/products2.cfm?product=S0141

Bronze is also a good alternative. I use a bronze one of these as a keychain fob so I can secure my keys to my PFD: http://www.bosunsupplies.com/products2.cfm?product=S0175

[risingsn]

Winding through what "various points"? Worst case, the rope goes under the deck rigging on one boat and clips to another and the connection is essentially direct. There is no comparison between this and a typical climbing situation (I'm a climber, btw) where a rope may zig-zag or run over edges and abrasive surface, nor is there even a remote comparison between the forces generated in a leader fall and those involved in towing. While a leader fall can generate thousands of pounds of force, the forces involved in towing are in the tens of pounds, not even the hundred of pounds that many people surmise. Forces in the hundreds of pounds would rip deck tows off boats and injure paddlers using waist tows. Considering that the average paddler exerts only ~10 pounds of force per paddle stroke, there is no way one would be able to tow a boat if the forces involved were more than a few pounds. The only reason we use tow lines as thick as we do is to make them easier to handle, particularly if you need to haul on one with bare hands; the ropes themselves are typically much stronger than they need to be. When you get down to it, you could tow a kayak with 1/8" nylon or polyester cord.

Thanks for the clarification, Chuck

[EEL]

There is no comparison between this and a typical climbing situation (I'm a climber, btw) where a rope may zig-zag or run over edges and abrasive surface, nor is there even a remote comparison between the forces generated in a leader fall and those involved in towing.

If all one does with a tow rope is tow paddlers on relatively placid waters, your points are well taken. Regardless I agree the loads would be less in almost any set of circumstances compared to climbing. I also agree the typical tow rope gear far exceeds the loads normally imposed. Still, a fully loaded kayak in rough water near shore could result in some rather high loads where the rope might not be a direct line.

The question I was answering was how can it happen that the load perceived by the person differs from the load at other points in the system. As a climber, I assume you may also have held leader falls and been surprised as the modest load you felt even when doing a hip belay. If you have only used the typical belay devices used recently attached to an anchor, then perhaps not. In fact they can be easier than holding a fall by a second. The reason being the load is taken in other parts of the system before it is perceived by the belayer and the stress at those points can become failure points.

Ed Lawson

[Brian Nystrom]

I agree with the use of stainless steel snap hooks. com/products2.cfm?product=S0175

I like the concept of stainless steel carabiners, but the issue I have with them is that if you get one that's large enough to operate easily with gloves on, it weighs a ton and will sink floating rope. Many of them also have very small gate openings, which are a liability in an emergency situation. The ideal product for towing would be a stainless steel, all-wire carabiner, as it would be light weight, simple and amply strong for the purpose.