replacement Carabiner/eye hook

[Phil Allen]

Hi All,

I need to replace the carabiner(s) on my tow rig. Anybody have a good variant they want to recommend? Thanks.

Phil

[EEL]

I need to replace the carabiner(s) on my tow rig. Anybody have a good variant they want to recommend?

Curious as to what happened to it that necessitates replacement.

Ed Lawson

[Phil Allen]

Curious as to what happened to it that necessitates replacement.

Ed Lawson

Oxidation. To be fair to the un-named manufacturer, it got left in Osprey's van during NSPN/ACA l2 trip leader training and took a circuitous route back to me last summer. By that point I barely managed to rehab it, but the oxidation caught up over the winter.

Phil

[EEL]

Oxidation.

I have a fondness for gateless climbing biners with a concave latch. I do not like big, heavy biners. I look for ones with relatively sloppy mechanisms and strong springs to minimize the stickies. My needless comment is I wash and exercise them on a regular basis. I don't really have a favorite brand to suggest. I like gateless because the notch tends to attract stuff and won't let it go when you want things to go easy. I find the concave latch is easy to use. I like light, simple and easy.

Ed Lawson

[risingsn]

I have a fondness for gateless climbing biners with a concave latch. I do not like big, heavy biners. I look for ones with relatively sloppy mechanisms and strong springs to minimize the stickies. My needless comment is I wash and exercise them on a regular basis. I don't really have a favorite brand to suggest. I like gateless because the notch tends to attract stuff and won't let it go when you want things to go easy. I find the concave latch is easy to use. I like light, simple and easy.

Ed Lawson

I too have had the alum. biner on my NDK belt fail & I was meticulas in cleaning and washing it. I replaced it w/ a SS biner that does not have a notch @ the gate. Bought it at west marine for about $20 & have had it for a few years wo/ problem. My Palm tow belt has a composite/plastic biner (Seadog pn 157110). I was concerned as to how it might hold up but so far have had great success in some nasty stuff.

Well theres my 2 cents, Chuck

[rick stoehrer]

I too have had the alum. biner on my NDK belt fail & I was meticulas in cleaning and washing it. I replaced it w/ a SS biner that does not have a notch @ the gate. Bought it at west marine for about $20 & have had it for a few years wo/ problem. My Palm tow belt has a composite/plastic biner (Seadog pn 157110). I was concerned as to how it might hold up but so far have had great success in some nasty stuff.

Well theres my 2 cents, Chuck

FWIW

that biner is injection molded nylon and the manufacturer does not attest to it's strength and lays all liability on your doorstep...the sea-dog manufacture site (www-sea-dog.com) says

"Breaking Strength and Safe Working Load are ratings which are applied to Sea-Dog parts only by the manufacturer of the part (our supplier). If this information is not listed in our catalog, it is because our supplier has chosen not to apply this information.

Usually this type of rating will not apply to a cast part, regardless of the material, since there is no guarantee of consistency in base material throughout the part. There may be air voids and other imperfections related to the process of casting which may affect structural integrity and cannot be seen "under the skin" without cutting the part open.

Parts which may be load rated by our suppliers are forged, drop forged, stamped and machined parts. Be sure to refer to the "Breaking Strengths" section in the front of our catalog, which describes definitions of Breaking Strength and Working Load Limit (WLL).

Because a part is not load rated does not mean that the part is not usable in most reasonable applications. It is up to the end user to determine if the part may cause personal injury to a user, by their own testing and common sense evaluation of the part."

surely there are engineer types who will have specific info on what's going to happen to the nylon as it ages in the sun and the properties change in the cold but my initial laymen's reaction would be to get rid of it and get a proper metal 'biner.

i'd think the guys you paddle with and would be the likely recipients of the benefit of said tow belt would toss that $20 'biner cost in a hat for you...a worthy investment on their part perhaps.

[sands]

Hamilton marine has a series of stainless steel snap hooks

http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/4,22118.html

or search for snap hook on their site.

a 4 5/8 long one is $12.00

Steve and Sue

[Brian Nystrom]

Oxidation. To be fair to the un-named manufacturer, it got left in Osprey's van during NSPN/ACA l2 trip leader training and took a circuitous route back to me last summer. By that point I barely managed to rehab it, but the oxidation caught up over the winter.

Phil

You might want to give rehabilitation another shot. I've taken 'biners that were frozen to the point that the gate wouldn't move at all and returned them to usable condition. Start by flexing it under fresh water until it moves freely, then lube it well and it should work fine. I prefer to use aluminum 'biners as they're lighter than stainless and don't drag the float down on my tow line.

[risingsn]

You might want to give rehabilitation another shot. I've taken 'biners that were frozen to the point that the gate wouldn't move at all and returned them to usable condition. Start by flexing it under fresh water until it moves freely, then lube it well and it should work fine. I prefer to use aluminum 'biners as they're lighter than stainless and don't drag the float down on my tow line.

I have two that I have rehabilitated but the springs no longer keep the gate closed

[risingsn]

Hamilton marine has a series of stainless steel snap hooks

http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/4,22118.html

or search for snap hook on their site.

a 4 5/8 long one is $12.00

Steve and Sue

The biner in the picture looks like it has a notched gate...not a good thing.

[risingsn]

FWIW

that biner is injection molded nylon and the manufacturer does not attest to it's strength and lays all liability on your doorstep...the sea-dog manufacture site (www-sea-dog.com) says

"Breaking Strength and Safe Working Load are ratings which are applied to Sea-Dog parts only by the manufacturer of the part (our supplier). If this information is not listed in our catalog, it is because our supplier has chosen not to apply this information.

Usually this type of rating will not apply to a cast part, regardless of the material, since there is no guarantee of consistency in base material throughout the part. There may be air voids and other imperfections related to the process of casting which may affect structural integrity and cannot be seen "under the skin" without cutting the part open.

Parts which may be load rated by our suppliers are forged, drop forged, stamped and machined parts. Be sure to refer to the "Breaking Strengths" section in the front of our catalog, which describes definitions of Breaking Strength and Working Load Limit (WLL).

Because a part is not load rated does not mean that the part is not usable in most reasonable applications. It is up to the end user to determine if the part may cause personal injury to a user, by their own testing and common sense evaluation of the part."

surely there are engineer types who will have specific info on what's going to happen to the nylon as it ages in the sun and the properties change in the cold but my initial laymen's reaction would be to get rid of it and get a proper metal 'biner.

i'd think the guys you paddle with and would be the likely recipients of the benefit of said tow belt would toss that $20 'biner cost in a hat for you...a worthy investment on their part perhaps.

Rick, that is a very interesting point. I am curios, where did all of the info in your post come from? I would think that this injection molding process would be relatively reliable, but thats just speculation on my part. These biners have been on the market for at least 3 years & I have not heard of a failure.

Your reply has brought up another question which I think is more to the point. How much stress is their in a tow situation. I have towed single & multiple kayaks in varied conditions & I can't remember ever feeling that my belt was under great stress. I have seen specs on line used in tow belts indicating that it is good for 750-1500 #s depending on the line. If I took that load on my tow belt my guess is I would shear off right @ the deck. Does any one have any info on this? I'm sure it could be determined w/ some hi-tech gear which I don't have. I wonder if a fisherman in the group would have a fish scale which could be placed in the tow rigg to get an idea (ok, now you know how simple - ton- I am). I would be interested I hearing what others think. Thank, Chuck

[risingsn]

You might want to give rehabilitation another shot. I've taken 'biners that were frozen to the point that the gate wouldn't move at all and returned them to usable condition. Start by flexing it under fresh water until it moves freely, then lube it well and it should work fine. I prefer to use aluminum 'biners as they're lighter than stainless and don't drag the float down on my tow line.

Brian, I have always enjoyed your posts & thought that for the lions share of the time they were spot on. This maybe a question like the 'skeg/rudder' question (which I am right on by the way). I have an NDK rig w/ a float & a Palm wo/ a float. When towing a victim with a supporting kayak I usually run my line through the deck line of the victims kayak & then attach it to the supporting kayak so that if needed the supporting paddler could release the tow & the kayaks could separate. I have seen floats get caught in the deck lines & not allow complete release. So my preference is no float. My Palm rig has floating line which will support the Seadog biner & the whole rig will float when completely released into the water. So some manufactures use floats, others don't. Some lines & biners float wo/ a float, others sink like the proverbial ,well, SS biner. Will a float keep the line from fouling on something under the surface? Some manufacturers don't use floating line, so even w/ a float the line will still sink below the surface. So do we need a float? "...well, I'm just sayin'"

[Bill Gwynn]

When towing a victim with a supporting kayak I usually run my line through the deck line of the victims kayak & then attach it to the supporting kayak so that if needed the supporting paddler could release the tow & the kayaks could separate.

If the supporting kayak has the biner attached to his bow deck line, he can't detach it (unless you have really long arms) The way I have always done it is to run the line through the supporting kayaks deck line and then attach the biner to the victims deck line. That way, the supporting kayak can paddle up and detach the biner from the victims kayak.

I agree with your comment about floats, they can get fouled up in the deck lines. I personally don't use one.

[risingsn]

If the supporting kayak has the biner attached to his bow deck line, he can't detach it (unless you have really long arms) The way I have always done it is to run the line through the supporting kayaks deck line and then attach the biner to the victims deck line. That way, the supporting kayak can paddle up and detach the biner from the victims kayak.

I agree with your comment about floats, they can get fouled up in the deck lines. I personally don't use one.

Bill, Sorry, I was not as clear as I should have been. I run the biner further beck on the supporting kayak past an RDF so that the paddler can reach it from his cockpit.

Thanks, Chuck

[Bill Gwynn]

Ahhh...OK, I have seen that method as well. Haven't put into on water trial yet, but I will give it a try. Just to be clear, this method still runs the tow line through the bow lines first and then clips back closer to the cockpit. Of course with a float, this method could cause real "hang-ups".

[rick stoehrer]

Rick, that is a very interesting point. I am curios, where did all of the info in your post come from? I would think that this injection molding process would be relatively reliable, but thats just speculation on my part. These biners have been on the market for at least 3 years & I have not heard of a failure.

Your reply has brought up another question which I think is more to the point. How much stress is their in a tow situation. I have towed single & multiple kayaks in varied conditions & I can't remember ever feeling that my belt was under great stress. I have seen specs on line used in tow belts indicating that it is good for 750-1500 #s depending on the line. If I took that load on my tow belt my guess is I would shear off right @ the deck. Does any one have any info on this? I'm sure it could be determined w/ some hi-tech gear which I don't have. I wonder if a fisherman in the group would have a fish scale which could be placed in the tow rigg to get an idea (ok, now you know how simple - ton- I am). I would be interested I hearing what others think. Thank, Chuck

hi chuck -

the info all came directly from the sea dog website. took a bit to find but when you mentioned having a 'biner made out of what sounds like the same base material as a coat hanger i thought it was worth the search. i think i included the .com link and the quote is exactly that...the quote from the company site regarding the gear.

personally, i have experienced considerable strain on tow gear in some situations; i can feel it on my midsection when under tow through rough or bigish water, current, etc. i've had folks on tow on one side of large swell and i'm on the other...so as i'm heading down the face, their heading up the back side....yeah, there's been some strain.

i don't know what the stress ratings are for different lines or the different elements that comprise tow rigs themselves....my thinking though is that if i have something on tow...i want to be the one to decide that it's time to clear the tow and not whatever fail rating the gear has....so for me, a metal 'biner offers more comfort in that regard.

as for floats on tow line...eh, various opinions...the only thing i'd mention is that if you do use a float to take it off the line and adjust it down away from the 'biner 3 or 4 feet....helps keep it from getting fouled on deck line when clearing the 'biner.

personally i don't use one at all for the reasons referenced...seems like just another bit to me.

[rick stoehrer]

Bill, Sorry, I was not as clear as I should have been. I run the biner further beck on the supporting kayak past an RDF so that the paddler can reach it from his cockpit.

Thanks, Chuck

so...alright...next time your on the water don't have the paddler being towed assist at all...it sounds like even if you have the line running under the forward deck line before attaching closer to the tow-ee, that you would have some challenges in controlling the bow of that boat....how's that working? is there a big difference between running that line back closer to the center of the boat than just running it off of a bow deck line? the bow will stay in line better if the 'biner is attached farther forward.

the other reason i might not do that too is that if i have to tow you, then i'm in charge...i'll decide when you come off tow and then come release it when i want it...sometimes it's best to not let folks make their own decisions; hypothermia impairs judgment for instance or maybe you've got someone slow but proud and really dragging on the group and you need to boogie....sometimes if you remove someone's ability to make a decision, well...then the one you make is the one carried out.

[Bill Gwynn]

Rick, I think you may be misunderstanding this other method. This is for towing two boats (victim and stabilizer). The stabilizing boat is the one in control. The tow line goes thru the victims bow, then thru the stabilizers bow, then back to a line within reach of the stabilizing paddler. This method allows a quicker disconnect by the stabilizer (no need to paddle forward to the victims bow). I saw this method used on Jeff and Simon's Incident Management class.

[EEL]

Valuable discussion on towing. I never understood the logic of having both boats clipped at the bow and now I know there is no logic to it.

Regarding strength and stress issues. Keep in mind that most knots reduce a lines strength by at least 30% if not more and the actual forces, especially dynamic ones, at points in the total system can be quite high even if the humans in the chain do do not perceive the loads as high. That said, I would expect most loads to be well under the limits of most gear, but since a failure could ruin your day better to err on the side of higher strength. As to floats and other stuff. As seamen we should all dread anything that involves lines which makes keeping them neat and tidy more difficult.

Ed Lawson

[Bill Gwynn]

Valuable discussion on towing. I never understood the logic of having both boats clipped at the bow and now I know there is no logic to it.

Ed Lawson

Well, I wouldn't say that there is no logic to it. The first method (biner thru stabilizers bow then clipped to victims bow) is a tried and true method and works quite well. I have yet to really experiment with this newer method, but I think that some of what Rick eluded to in regards to the bows of the boats being aligned has some validity. I would think it's possible for the tow line to work it's way down to the next RDF back from the bow and not keeping the two bows as close together as you want and making the tow more difficult. Bottom line...having many options is a good thing.

[rick stoehrer]

Rick, I think you may be misunderstanding this other method. This is for towing two boats (victim and stabilizer). The stabilizing boat is the one in control. The tow line goes thru the victims bow, then thru the stabilizers bow, then back to a line within reach of the stabilizing paddler. This method allows a quicker disconnect by the stabilizer (no need to paddle forward to the victims bow). I saw this method used on Jeff and Simon's Incident Management class.

ahhh-haa...you're right, i didn't read closely enough...i thought he was talking about towing a single boat.

if it's the assist on the tow that has control/way out, i don't see an issue as long as the bows are still controlled from wavering all over the place....nice innovation....have to try it.

[Bill Gwynn]

I think the biggest potential problem is the biner getting hung up at the stabilizers bow as it makes it's way up to the bow after disconnect. I am also curious about the bows being controlled and staying close together. I think some of that may depend on the physical condition of the victim being able to hold his bow close.

[jason]

It's worth attempting to do a tandem tow with only one boat hooked up, you will find that it's a lot of work to keep the bows together, enough that you can't effectively deal with the victim. If the bows separate the best case is your making a lot more work for the tower, worst case is you have one or more of the towed boats up side down.

Last weekend Steve Maynard talked to me about reworking my tow setup. He thinks that I should move the float a couple of feet back up the tow (2 or 3), That way it's not in the way when you hook up. Steve is also against removing the float as he has seen the clip get hung up on things on the bottom. If the float is 2' away from the clip you can always reach for it (you may have to get out of the boat to do it). If it's stuck 35' your not going to be able to easily retrieve it.

-Jason

[EEL]

The first method (biner thru stabilizers bow then clipped to victims bow) is a tried and true method and works quite well.

Oh, I think I have seen it done/illustrated with the biner clipped to the stabilizer's bow and running through the bow of the towed boat. I don't know why I thought that, but I remember thinking that does not look right to me.

I suspect there are a multitude of techniques and ideas all of which have good and bad points, but as you say it is better to have several tools in the toolbox than"one true way" in order to be able to adapt and meet the needs of any given set of circumstances.

Ed Lawson

[jason]

Oh, I think I have seen it done/illustrated with the biner clipped to the stabilizer's bow and running through the bow of the towed boat. I don't know why I thought that, but I remember thinking that does not look right to me.

I suspect there are a multitude of techniques and ideas all of which have good and bad points, but as you say it is better to have several tools in the toolbox than"one true way" in order to be able to adapt and meet the needs of any given set of circumstances.

Ed Lawson

The norm is you run it though the stabilizers bow and clip to the victim. In that way the stabilizer has a chance to release from the tow if the stabilizer feels the need. Chances are that the line will still hang up on the rdf or get clip on to the deck line exist, so there is no sure exit in this manor.

-Jason