spider Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I've been wondering ...when going through "squirrely water" like eddies and rips etc. Is it better to have the skegs or rudders up or down ?? I've mostly been thinking ...deploy them and keep them down.. but... on the same hand are you more apt to have them "trip you up" in the current ?? Thinking of ww kayaks , for example, they are always in and out of eddies and are smooth bottomed. Thoughts on the subject ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I've been wondering ...when going through "squirrely water" like eddies and rips etc. Is it better to have the skegs or rudders up or down ?? It will be interesting to see the opinions of those who have experience hanging out it such places. I'm not sure I would call such places squirrely water as I think of squirrely as confused water which is likely to push a boat in many different directions. Something akin to reflected water around headlands. That said, eddylines and rips are certainly dynamic places where a boat can have a mind of its own at times for this beginner. I suspect the boat may be a major factor in what works and what does not. I'm not an anti-skeg type by any means, but to the extent they reduce the ease/ability to change the boat's direction quickly; I believe they would impede the ability to handle squirrely water however defined. Skegs seem useful to me when I just don't want to deal with troublesome weathercocking or rear quartering seas pushing me around over a long distance. Otherwise for some crazy reason I want the boat to be as responsive to my input as possible and do not use it. Of course that leads to many frustrating moments, but I rationalize it by saying I'm learning to be a better paddler. I think they call that cognatitive dissonance. <g> Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Gwynn Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I almost never use my skeg, especially when in confused water or current. Boat control should be managed by strokes and edging. The only time I do use my skeg as Ed has said is on crossings where I am too lazy or tired to deal with weather cocking. Now, the other part of the equation is, what works best for you in your boat. Some have said that having a little bit of skeg down in their Pintail improves overall performance. I have a Pintail and don't see the need for any skeg, but that is my preference. I would do some experimenting, try the same section of water several times with varying degrees of skeg deployment and decide for yourself what works best for you and your boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonsprag1 Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 If you are in a position where you may have to change direction quickly leave your skeg or rudder up---and with a skeg, I agree with the posters above---you really should only need or use it when running down wind or in a quartering sea---some say that in a beam sea too it is helpful but I haven't found it so. and when you do deploy it, its best to only put it down half way or so, to retain some acceptable degree of manuverability. Finally it's been my experience when going to windward from 60 degrees relative to the wind to right into the wind(0 degrees relative), having a skeg deployed can be counter productive, particularly with winds over 20 knots and seas over 3 feet. Having a skeg deployed in those conditions makes the boat liable to lee cock(head down wind) when you really want to head up wind---in fact given extreme enough conditions, the boat will be pinned---unable to go anywhere but down or crosswind if the skeg is deployed at all. As far as a rudder goes I don't have enough experience with them to have an opinion one way or the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Schade Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 There are no rules about using a skeg or rudder beyond doing what works best for you. There will be times when the boat does what you want more easily with the skeg/rudder deployed and other times when you are more comfortable without it. The thing to do is to try it both ways and switch back and forth until you get a feel for it. In the video at you will see that I change the skeg several times, I was just checking which I liked better. While surfing that wave I had a little better control with the skeg down, but when crossing the eddy line it was easier with the skeg up. In other words, using the skeg is not a set-and-forget thing, but changes with momentary needs. In summary, the response to the question: "Is it better to have the skegs or rudders up or down ??", the answer is "yes". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spider Posted October 23, 2007 Author Share Posted October 23, 2007 Some may already have surmised that I have a one boat with a skeg and one with a rudder. (ok I do have a few others). I know that certain eddies change in relation to the tide etc and water bubbles, boils, rips and.... well etc.... etc... I use the skeg as the mood strikes me, but when I know there is going to be some definite stuff ahead I can never seem to make up my mind which method would be of the greatest help or hinderence. The boat with the rudder is usually used by friends and I'll have them drop it down when we going through any"funny" stuff. The other day I started wondering if I was giving them good or bad advice. I suppose it's 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I suppose it's 6 of one and 1/2 dozen of the other... I think that about sums it up for most paddling questions. Seems to me we all ultimately paddle different boats and use different paddles due to our different interests, body ergonomics, personalities, and proclivities so we all create our own "style" of paddling technique even if grounded in some basic/general catalog of "how things are to be done" and our individual views may not agree with conventional wisdom and provide limited useful advice to others. For example, even though I found myself paddling a GP 99% this year and am now a total klutz with a EP, I still think a sweep/screw roll with an EP is easier than the traditional GP sweep/layback roll. Illogical, but that is my experience. Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted October 23, 2007 Share Posted October 23, 2007 I agree with Nick, there are no hard and fast rules for skeg use. There have been times when it didn't work as I expected it would and times where it worked great when I thought it would likely be problematic. Every combination of wind, waves, current and travel direction is different and the only way to know what works best is to experiment. It's also important to understand that a skeg is not just up or down; partial deployment can work wonders in many situations. If I had to guess, I'd say that when I use a skeg, it's most often somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 deployed, even on the Pintail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jed Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 I agree with Nick, there are no hard and fast rules for skeg use. OK, I'll take the other side of the issue (it's been a while since BNystrom and I went toe-to-toe). While overall there may be few hard and fast rules . . you'd be hard pressed to find an experienced paddler that would use either a skeg or a rudder if the goal is to play in and/or move around/across currents. Lest you think I'm dis'ing Nick - in Nick's example he liked a bit of skeg while surfing but in that case he's not moving through any eddy. When it came time to move through the eddie Nick chose to reduce the effect of the skeg by raising the skeg (either a bit or completely). The fact is that you don't want to pin the stern relative to a current in this type of dynamic situation. It just makes the boat more difficult to control. WW boats and WW canoes have neither skegs nor rudders for very good reasons. Firstly, there's little need. Each end of the boat is going to move relative to what ever current is in effect at the various ends of the boat. The only exception I can think of is if you need a bit of skeg to balance the stern of a boat that is loaded bow-heavy. Other than that and Nick's surfing example, loose bows and sterns are the key to big smiles in current. Want to go downstream? Push the bow into the current at any angle greater than about 30° off directly upstream and the bow will turn downstream Want to go upstream? Push the bow into the current at any angle less than about 30° to directly upstream and paddle like hell. Want to just spin on the eddie-line? Push the bow out enough to catch the current but not so much that the stern clears the eddie-line. This way you can do spins right on the eddie line with very little work on the paddler's part. The trick (and the fun) is to use the current to your advantage. For that a bare hull is the best tool. cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 There won't be any toe-to-toe today either, as I agree with you, Jed. Re-reading my post, I really didn't answer the original question about eddies, etc. and was thinking more in terms of general skeg use. The fundamental techniques you cite are on the money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilsoj2 Posted October 24, 2007 Share Posted October 24, 2007 Think whitewater. Jed's description of how to move in and out of eddys, peel out, etc.. is the as valid for a Romany as an I3. For squirrely water A feel I loose too much control if I have may skeg deployed. I find I rarely use any skeg and when I do it is in following or quartering seas -- and then usually 1/4 does it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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