NDK Owners Group - on line

[B]

For NDK owners, users, abusers interested there's an informal NDK Owners group now online at www.groups.yahoo.com/group/NDKowners

40 members have jumped on already.

[Michael_Crouse]

For those who don't remember Bob started a Gulfstream Owners Group a few years ago, now this... does Derek know about this other boat?

I wonder if every member will list their boat's weight? Perhaps the repair history of everyone's boats, divided into factory defect repairs and owner damage repairs of course ;-)

[Guest guest]

Great! You know what they say...misery loves company!!!

I love my Explorer...but then I have a high pain threshold from being around British cars so long!

[Brian Nystrom]

...at least for those of us who don't own NDK boats! I can see the horror stories now...and the helpful articles, such as:

"How to Repair A Boat Whose Stern Keel Broke Off In One Huge Chunk Because The Factory Didn't Put Any Friggin' Fiberglass Aft Of The Skeg Box"

or

"Doctors Who Perform Hernia Surgery Cheap, For NDK Owners Who Believed The Published Weights And Actually Tried To Lift Their Boat Alone"

or

"Self-Detaching Seats Are Not A Defect, They're A Feature"

or

"If Kayaks Were Meant To Be Built With Fiberglass Cloth, God Wouldn't Have Made Chopped Strand Matt Cheaper."

or

"Gelcoat Doesn't Add Weight, It Creates Ballast"

Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;-)

[Jed]

>...at least for those of us who don't own NDK boats! I can

>see the horror stories now...and the helpful articles, such

>Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;-)

I'm not sure it's ever wise to poke fun at someone's choice of kayak. That NDK has had problems with quality control is a fact. Poking fun at that or painting a picture like you have above can only lead to hurt feelings about something to which many paddlers are very attached emotionally.

I'm not offended personally, I chose NDK boats with full knowledge of the potential problems. I had no delusions of buying garage art. TB did an admiral job of warning me about the quality issues. Like many others, I choose NDK because it's the best kayak for the type of paddling that I do. I and most other NDK owners have no regrets. In spite of NDK's quality control problems they still manufacture, in my opinion, the best sea kayaks available for rough seas. NDK owners believe no other boat would handle similar use with such grace and reliability.

I know you didn't mean to offend anyone, but others that may not know you as well might well feel offended. Bear in mind, NDK boats are some of the most heavily used by some of the most demanding expedition and rough water sport paddlers around. NDK boats are far from perfect, but they are widely considered the only boat to be paddling when the sea decides it's time to teach you a lesson.

Jed

"The ability to defend an opinion with absolute certainty . . .

. . . is inversely proportional to one's actual experience."

[Brian Nystrom]

I realize that people paddle NDK boats for their on-water performance and that most know that piss-poor quality control is part of the package. I empathize with those who buy them without realizing what they may be getting into. While I would never insult a paddler for choosing an NDK boat, I'm not above taking a jab at Nigel Dennis for the shoddy way he builds his boats and treats his customer base. Besides, some of the problems with them are so ludicrous that you either have to laugh at them or cry.

FWIW, the Betsie Bay Aral I own has many flaws too, though no serious structural defects that I know of. Although I got it at a good price, they sell for much more than NDK boats ($3500) and the construction quality is nowhere near what one would expect for the price. I always tell it like it is whenever anyone inquires about BBK boats; they are the NDK of wood boats. Interestingly, I paddle it for the same reason that you and others paddle NDK's; the on-water performance is simply outstanding.

[John Leonard]

I thought it was pretty funny. I laughed out loud even!

I own one and think it's a great boat, but most of Brian's comments are right on the money! I like it so much I wouldn't trade it for anything. Well....maybe a.....no, no, my name's John and I have a problem!!!!

John

[Guest guest]

"I wonder if every member will list their boat's weight?"

Not sure I can lift mine onto a scale, much less safely stand it on end to get a good reading. I can hear it now: "Duck and cover!" Of course, "duck and cover" would work as well for a falling Explorer as for a Russian nuclear bomb blast. (For those unfamiliar with the term, it was a public safety phrase in the days of the cold war.)

Perhaps it could be weighed the by stopping at one of the weighing stations for trucks that you see on the highway (weight of the car carrying the kayak would be negligible). One might even be able to test Peter Logan's theory of Explorer water adsorption by stopping at one before and after a trip!

Sorry Jed, couldn't resist.

- Richard Beckham, Y/W Explorer

[B]

See it as a support group! I wouldn't give mine up for anything.

[Guest guest]

Entertaining thread, with lots of well articulated points.

I am reasonably fond of my NDK Greenlander Pro. It's a well *designed" boat and handles well in both surf and calm conditions. However, I am appalled at NDK's shoddy workmanship.

Their poor quality control and inattentiveness to order specifications forced me to send back the first two boats that were shipped to my local dealer. The third boat, the one that I finally accepted, leaked like a sieve in the skeg box. The skeg itself broke within six months.

It's a very HEAVY boat. Mine in particular, seems front-heavy. There seems to have been more fiberglass material applied in the bow than stern.

I would strongly caution anyone considering the purchase of an NDK boat. Great designs, lousy workmanship. As long as you're patient and willing to work thru potential repairs upon delivery of your new $3,000 boat, you'll be satisified with the on-water performance.

[Guest guest]

>Entertaining thread, with lots of well articulated points.

>

>I am reasonably fond of my NDK Greenlander Pro. It's a well

>*designed" boat and handles well in both surf and calm

>conditions. However, I am appalled at NDK's shoddy

>workmanship.

>

> Their poor quality control and inattentiveness to order

>specifications forced me to send back the first two boats

>that were shipped to my local dealer. The third boat, the

>one that I finally accepted, leaked like a sieve in the skeg

>box. The skeg itself broke within six months.

>

>It's a very HEAVY boat. Mine in particular, seems

>front-heavy. There seems to have been more fiberglass

>material applied in the bow than stern.

>

>I would strongly caution anyone considering the purchase of

>an NDK boat. Great designs, lousy workmanship. As long as

>you're patient and willing to work thru potential repairs

>upon delivery of your new $3,000 boat, you'll be satisified

>with the on-water performance.

I just ordered two boats this fall for spring delivery. The choice was between the explorer and the aquanaut for myself, and the explorer LV and the aquanaut for my wife. We will have to drive about ten hours each way to take delivery of our boats. After reading all the comments about NDK quality I had no choice but to choose the aquanaut. I have no desire to be stuck with a boat or two that are lemons, and I had no desire to spend the winter worrying about whether I was going to receive crap for a boat. I would think that at some point in time Nigel Dennis will start to realise how much business he losing with his lack of quality control. The aquanaut was designed IMHO to compete with the explorer, and given the choice of two very similar boats, who will want to take the risk of paying $3000 for a boat with known problems. I liked the explorer I tried, but if I had ordered two of them the odds are that at least one of the boats would have had significant problems. NDK loses $6000, VCP makes $6000. I just wonder how often this situation arises.

Dan

Aquanaut

Traffic Yellow over White

[Brian Nystrom]

VCP has apparently seen the opening in the market that NDK's poor reputation has created and is taking advantage of it. I'm quite impressed with how market savvy they've become. NDK suffered a big hit in sales last year, which may have served as a wake-up call. They're now claiming to have improved their manufacturing quality. It will be interesting to see if it's for real or just lip service. With VCP, Wilderness System and Necky (among others) producing high quality, high performance boats aimed at the "serious paddler" market, NDK is going to get pummeled if it continues to produce substandard boats.

[Guest guest]

Everyone knows NDK has certain character flaws, ticks of the drudgery of the manufactured sea kayak. You can’t expect someone who is laboring on the sweated line of production, day after day, with only the thought of the next pint, to get the cockpit combing, or the seat aligned, just so

After all, the wife and little ones see you off at day’s first light not knowing for sure you will make it back home safe at the end of the day. You walk to work bent over from the years of wetting glass and cough incessantly from the toxic nightmare you must face. You are the unknown kayak builder, pressed by fate and class to toil without hope until you fall face down in your last Guinness. We weep at your dull destiny and vow to overlook the cruel criticisms of your work, fore we know you have given your life’s blood to the craft.

I used to ride a plastic boat for a few years and had no trouble finding rocks to play on, but now that I have an explorer I treat it the same as the plastic and have no complaints. I have no factory seat or back band either. Who wants to ride uncomfortably and off to one side? Someday I’ll have to try the skeg and see if that works.

We require only one skill... that you come back, and charge one duty... that all come back.

Rick

[Guest guest]

>VCP has apparently seen the opening in the market that NDK's

>poor reputation has created and is taking advantage of it.

>I'm quite impressed with how market savvy they've become.

>NDK suffered a big hit in sales last year, which may have

>served as a wake-up call. They're now claiming to have

>improved their manufacturing quality. It will be interesting

>to see if it's for real or just lip service. With VCP,

>Wilderness System and Necky (among others) producing high

>quality, high performance boats aimed at the "serious

>paddler" market, NDK is going to get pummeled if it

>continues to produce substandard boats.

The big problem that I see from NDKs point of view is that it is very easy to loose credibility in the market, but it is very difficult to regain this credibility once it is lost. I would be very hesitant to buy one of their boats for the next while, I would wait to see some confirmation of their commitment to improve the quality control, and while people are waiting for this confirmation they are buying other boats. This is a case where had NDK been proactive in their response to the criticism about quality control they would have kept or even increased their client base. They made some very good kayaks from the point of view of performance but the quality control is hurting them and it is opening the door to other manufacturers, and that is a door that is very hard to close once opened.

Dan

Aquanaut

Traffic Yellow over White

[christopherG]

"...wouldn't give up yours for anything..."? huh! i won the lottery last night and was thinking of offering you five thousand for yours; but i guess that's futile?

[christopherG]

"...You can’t expect someone who is laboring on the sweated line of production, day after day, with only the thought of the next pint, to get the cockpit combing, or the seat aligned, just so..."

dear rick: in a word: bollocks! there's nought wrong, lad, wi' me pintail or sirius that were achieved with same techniques of fibreglass an' guinness! so stop makin' 'scuses, lad...and get thee on t'water, i say. industrial revolution's long gone from these shores -- in fact, it never got 'ere to anglesey at all, mate!

take care, over there in t' colonies, won't thee?

[B]

No leaks, no soft spots in the hull, few flaws indeed. I haven't used the skeg yet, even in 40 knot beam winds. It might have been luck, but I don't want to try for those odds again. Besides, it has a very special story behind it.

Bob Burnett

A Proud NDK Explorer Owner

[Guest guest]

Ok,I have to be honest. I really like my Explorer. Aside from the useless seat arrangement,I haven't had any serious issues. Sooo..there's a little water in the forward hatch,that's normal isn't it? And now I'm really good at fixing skeg cables! And I can't see the cracks in the gelcoat near the forward hatch when I'm paddling,so they don't bother me!

Fact is,the boat handles great,and the rougher,the better! It's not the fastest boat on the water,but I know what to expect from it at any time. I think every Explorer owner would probably feel about the same,from what I have heard. I thought it was interesting when we did "demo time" on a trip a couple of years ago,and I had people lined up to try my Explorer.

I like to think of it the same way I felt about my Triumph sports car. I didn't love it for the way it was made-I loved it for what it would do!!

[guido]

Support group members and critics should all find something to please them in the current issue of Sea Kayaker. The finally review the Romany Explorer. Picked a nice light 62 pound sample to test! Let the games begin...

Guy

(Former Romany Explorer Owners Group Member)

[Brian Nystrom]

He claims that the new boats weigh ~54#. Considering that the old specs claimed 56# but the boats were actually 62#, I guess the new ones will actually be 60#. ;-)

[Michael_Crouse]

Ok I know that NDK quality bashing has become a sport amongst some of us here (me included) but did you notice they mentioned the low cockpit coaming?

Did you also notice the secondary stability was referred to as "moderate"? I can't think of a boat with better secondary and they say it's moderate?

[Brian Nystrom]

IIRC (I don't have the mag handy) Nigel said something about raising the coaming a bit, so you could actually fit a spray skirt under it.

Stability is relative. It depends not only on what you're comparing it to, but also on the size and weight of the paddler, their personal preferences and the target audience you're addressing. Compared to many of the boats that SK tests, I can see where the secondary stability of the Explorer would be considered "moderate", especially to the beginner/intermediate paddlers that SK caters to (the bulk of the sea kayaking market).

I vividly remember how scary my Nordkapp was in the beginning and also how solid it felt after paddling a skin boat for a few weeks. My first experience in a Pintail was semi-traumatic, but now it's the most stable boat I own. I would imagine that most of us have had similar experiences.

[glad]

Yes it's true that my back hatch got wet from rolling practice. Just couldn't figure it out. Filled up the hatch, watched for drips, checked the skeg fittings - you name it. That 1/2 cup of water puzzled me.

So somebody filled up the back hatch with water and put it on the stern end. You wouldn't believe the stream of water that came out of the toggle holes! Guess they just couldn't pour enough epoxy into the ends in between rounds of Guinness.

Anybody else have this problem?

Karen

[glad]

I don't know exactly how much my 16' weighs but Liz Neumier's new racing 18 ft boat (suppose to be 55?) was significantly lighter than my Romany.

Karen

[Guest guest]

Karen,

I had the same problem with the rear compartment of my NDK Greenlander. On the first mile of my very first padddle, the rear compartment took on at least a pint of water. It turned out that the skeg box was very sloppily installed...with insufficient fiberglass. I took it back to my dealer (third NDK boat returned) and they managed to stop the leaking.

What appalled me the most was the fact that NDK didn't at the very least run a garden hose around the skep opening as a very basic quality assurance step before shipping it across the North Atlantic.

Rick