Thanks to Bill...

[shewhorn]

Thanks to Bill at the unofficial NH practice session today for having the patience to teach me how to roll!!! I've been jonesin' to get a roll since I bought this boat. I still need to work on the cowboy up. Also... thanks to Brian for letting me borrow his mask. Being able to see what the heck it was that I was doing (wrong) made a huge difference.

Cheers, Joe

[Brad Fournier]

Hey Joe, alittle off topic but what is your review of the Tempest 170, I may want to purchase one soon, Brad.

[Gcosloy]

Hi Joe,

If your rolling after one informal lesson my hat's off to you. On another subject:

Is this a southern colloquialism; I'm not familiar with this phrase. Please illuminate me

Cheers,

[shewhorn]

I'm not sure I'm really quallified to give a review as I'm a new paddler. Boats I've paddled... Boreal Designs Fjord, Valley Aquanaught (sp??), Boreal Designs Ellsmere, can't remember the others. My boat is rotomolded so I guess the first thing that comes to mind is that it's HEAVY.

Tracking... I weigh 185 and without a little more weight in it it needs a bit of skeg if you want to stay in a straight line but it's not a biggy. The Valley by comparison seemed to track a little easier.

Comfort - The Phase 3 seat is very adjustable and comfy. I've had my butt in it for 6 to 7 hours without anything falling asleep. That was actually one of the main criteria I had for a first boat... comfort. I was run over by a car in '99 which broke my pelvis in 3 spots, 5 broken vertebrae, a few ribs, and a scapula. They did a good job putting me back together but I wanted to make sure that whatever I bought for a first boat was easily adjustable. One thing I like is that there's plenty of room for me to bend my knees a bit which improves my comfort level a great deal. In the Valley I felt like I had to keep my legs against the hull with little room to move around (that's the only thing I didn't like about that boat).

Turning - Not quite as nimble as the Valley, it likes to be edged hard to turn. The Valley by comparison seemed to be a little more responsive to edging for minor course corrections. It's worth mentioning that part of it is my technique. David gave me a tip last week and I felt like I had a whole new boat. When I was turning I was edging fine but I wasn't leaning forward. The forward lean with that boat makes a HUGE difference in the responsiveness and now it feels a whole lot more nimble than it did before. I'm not sure you should listen to my opinion on how the boat handles given my lack of experience. LOL

I've been surfing with it once but I have no other frame of reference to compare it to (or other experiences for that matter). I didn't have too much trouble keeping the thing upright.

In chop... the bow slices through the waves quite nicely and sheds water most of the time before it reaches the cockpit.

Rolling... well don't listen to me about this either as I have no other frame of reference for comparison since I only completed my first roll yesterday BUT... Bill had me rolling in it in about 20 minutes so either the boat rolls easily or Bill is a good instructor. I suspect it has more to do with the instructor as opposed to the boat. I guess if a novice can roll it though it can't be that bad.

Speed - Again, no frame of reference as I've only brought the GPS along in my boat and haven't had it when trying other boats BUT... 4.0 to 4.5 MPH is no problem without having it feel like real work. I was able to keep it at around 5.4 MPH going downstream on the Contoocook (on the VERY SLOOOOOOOOW moving part of that river... you can't actually tell that the river is moving in most spots) for 1/2 hour at an HR of around 155 to 160 which for me is teetering on the edge of Zone 3/Zone 4 so I could probably sustain that a lot longer if I'd tried (on that particular day I just ran out of river and I was with a group so no time to try longer, on the bike I can sustain an HR of 160 for hours on end). From a "feel" POV it feels a bit slower than the Valley but I have no actual data to confirm whether or not it was my imagination (i.e. "this boat costs twice as much, it must be faster") or if it was actually faster. I'd guess that due to the sharper edge of the bow and lower friction of the hull (poly v. glass) that the Valley was a bit faster.

Hatches... leaky. I see that mentioned a lot with this boat.

I'm going to try and hit both the Mystic and Kingston/Great Pond sessions next week. You're welcome to take it for a spin.

Cheers, Joe

[Bill Gwynn]

I had a good student. You have what I consider the hardest part of rolling down pat. That is the mental aspect. You were able to relax and focus on the task while being upside down. You said it yourself, "we can all hold our breath for at least 45 seconds". Knowing that and doing that are often two different things. Good job and keep working on it.

[shewhorn]

Re: jonesin'... I Googled it and didn't come up with much. As a long shot I tried my dashboard dictionary widget and to my surprise it was listed...

Jones - A fixation on or compulsive desire for someone or something. Typically a drug; an addiction.

Origin: 1960s, said to come from Jones Alley, in Manhattan, associated with drug addicts.

Interesting... didn't actually know the origin. I've heard the term used in context quite a bit but never knew the origin.

Cheers, Joe

[Brad Fournier]

Awsome and thorough report Joe, very nice and I appreciate your taking time out to give me your personal and valuable review. Oh and congrats on your roll, I haven't tried that yet. Brad.

[cathyfoley]

Next week he'll teach you how to buy an Anas Acuta!...just so he can then teach you how to get in and out of it....lol

Congrats on the roll....the last one was a very impressive recovery!

[brwells]

Joe, it was great to watch you learn to roll so quickly. And when you capsized and rolled on your own, you were not wearing the mask. I'm envious... Sure looks better than my capsize and thrash. Next week I know what I want to work on.

Brian

P&H Capella 163

Red/White/Black trim

[shewhorn]

Well, easy come, easy go. I tried it in the ocean today. Drop the water temp by 10 degrees and you start getting stupid. It's also also more exhausting and the cold water shock tends to get me a bit dizzy with the rolling motion. I just wanted to try it in different conditions. I wore a 3 mil farmer John (with long legs) and a polyester long sleeve tech wick shirt. I think I'd have been a little more relaxed had I been wearing my full wet suit but... then I'd have also toasted myself paddling.

I think I started diving the blade again and wasn't keeping my head tucked down. I'll be trying again on Tuesady and Wednesday though. Hopefully I'll have time to grab a decent mask between now and then. I definitely need a ton of practice.

Cheers, Joe

[bob budd]

Come surfing! Plenty of chances to practice your roll!

[Gcosloy]

Hey Joe-Just relax-rolling a kayak is not a destination-it's a journey! Once you've successfully rolled as you have, you know the territory. That's the most important thing! Each attempt to roll as you are learning is analagous to finding the right map for the territory. But remember what Wittgenstein said, "The map is not the territory". When I learned to roll on my own this summer it was totally natural-just doit! I then took instruction from one of the best teachers in the business- learned all the right moves and why-and couldn't roll for weeks afterwards. When I went back to my just do it roll I popped up every time! I'm sure we're all different and respond to instruction in different ways however one thing seems to be common to those who roll consistently well: it's locked into their muscle memory, not their cerebrum. Just another perspective.

[PeterB]

Head gear helps lessen that initial cold water shock, will be useful as the water temperature starts to drop soon,and beomes essential to all but the hardiest people as fall turns to winter.

Options range from various lightweight skullcaps to full on 3-5MM neoprene hoods.I have a great lght to midweight Kokatat fleece -lined hood which, tucked under the collar of a drytop or paddling jacket, restricts water coming in enough to protect ones head so that that by the time you've rolled up, water hasn't had a chance to assault our head to much to begin with.

Reactions to cold water immersion vary widely. A very few are impervious, most suffer from "ice cream" headaches, and then some have severe reactions, from involuntary gasping ,cold water shock, even cardiac arrest.

[scamlin]

Joe:

On a minor point in your report on the Tempest:

Your GPS can switch among MPH (statute miles), KTS (knots) and KM (kilometers). If you're cruising in a plastic Tempest at 4.5 MPH without trying hard, either you're Olympic caliber or you have your GPS set to statute miles. I suspect the latter.

Speeds on the water (including boats, winds and currents) are generally quoted in nautical miles, i.e. knots. A nautical mile is about 1.15 statute miles, so you'd subtract 13% from MPH to get KTS. So 4 MPH is 3.5 KTS and 4.5 MPH is about 3.9 KTS.

When I first got my GPS, I starting checking my speeds and felt like a champ. Then I discovered the GPS setting, switched to KTS and joined the ranks of mere mortals.

For the origins and technical basis for Knots, see the following link:

http://www.onlineconversion.com/forum/forum_1076731782.htm

Best Regards,

Scott

[shewhorn]

>Joe:

>

>On a minor point in your report on the Tempest:

>

>Your GPS can switch among MPH (statute miles), KTS (knots)

>and KM (kilometers). If you're cruising in a plastic

>Tempest at 4.5 MPH without trying hard, either you're

>Olympic caliber or you have your GPS set to statute miles.

>I suspect the latter.

Hi Scott,

Yes, a good point for clarification and you are correct, I leave my GPS set to statue miles. I know speeds and distances on water are usually in knots (I'd have used the kts abbreviation if I was using knots though). Most people have no frame of reference (experience) relative to knots vs. MPH, thus my use of something that many people are familiar with and can relate to without having to do any conversions. The default settings for most GPS devices sold in the US are in MPH since most are purchased for use on land and I would suspect that the majority of folks using something like an eTrex on the water probably wouldn't bother to change those setting so they become familiar with what they're capable of in speed and distance in statute miles vs. nautical miles and can relate better to that. I'm not sure (wrt default settings) about units sold specifically for marine use (I would hope that the deafult would be in natuical miles but I really wouldn't be the least bit surprised if that was not the case). I would hope that GPS units sold for aviation come with the default set to knots.

Perhaps my experience is wrong but my experience has been that whenever someone uses the MPH label they always mean statute miles, not nautical miles. When talking about knots folks will generally say "I was traveling at 7 knots" with the period of "nautical miles per hour" being assumed.

Your point got me curious as to the origin of the statute mile and the nautical mile... wiki has an interesting read on it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile

Now... what I want to know is... who's the genius who decided that car tire sizes would be a mix of metric and imperial measurements in addition to percentages? Really, someone just needs to be smacked for that. LOL

[djlewis]

Kayakers usually mean "knots", often even when they say "miles per hour." Actually, useage of "knots" is so strong that we often don't even register the "miles per hour" part. IAC, if it did register, most kayakers would convert it to knots before deciding what it meant, or at least ask which you meant.

--David.

[jonsprag1]

just a brief note on the Tempest 170 RM----I won't get as technical as you folks but I have owned and paddled the T 170 for three seasons now---I use it not only for my private recreation but also for guiding---it is a great boat---really good secondary stability and not too bad primary---easy to brace and roll in(my opinion rolls like a dream) be sure to make sure the hatches are sealed properly before rolling, otherwise a little leakage(to properly seal pound the circumference of the rim of the hatch covers with the palm of your hand to ensure that they are over the combing(sp?) of the hatch. Downside of the Tempest is that it is a trifle slow for an ocean going boat. The fastest I've paddled is 5.1 statute miles(hey it was on an inland lake) in an hour and 8 minutes and that was using all my effort. If you are not going to be racing its a good boat and you should be able to get 3.5--4.0 knots in good conditions with a reasonable effort. PS--regarding your roll, don't worry too much about it---it takes a lot of time and practice to achieve a good reliable roll---even the most expert paddlers sometimes blow it in marginal conditions when they are tired. My observation is that even the best paddlers don't have an absolutly bombproof roll 100% of the time--I suppose that's why we carry paddle floats and practice other types of rescues.

[shewhorn]

Good to know. I'm sure that menu setting won't be too hard to find.

And BTW... easy come, easy go, easy come. Thanks David for helping me get the roll back. I still have to grab a full face mask. Hopefully if I get everything done that I need to get done tomorrow I can pick one up before heading over to Kingston.

Cheers, Joe

[shewhorn]

>be sure to make sure the hatches are sealed properly

>before rolling, otherwise a little leakage(to properly seal

>pound the circumference of the rim of the hatch covers with

>the palm of your hand to ensure that they are over the

>combing(sp?) of the hatch.

From reading the T170 reviews on paddling.net I think the tollerances from boat to boat (roto) probably vary quite a bit. The hatches on my boat seal poorly. After 8 rolls or so the day hatch had accumulated a few sponge fulls of water (and I'm 100% certain that it was sealed properly).

Downside of the Tempest is that

>PS--regarding your

>roll, don't worry too much about it---it takes a lot of time

>and practice to achieve a good reliable roll---even the most

>expert paddlers sometimes blow it in marginal conditions

>when they are tired. My observation is that even the best

>paddlers don't have an absolutly bombproof roll 100% of the

>time--I suppose that's why we carry paddle floats and

>practice other types of rescues.

I'm not really worried about it, it's more the challenge that interests me. I like trying and learning new things. The roll came back today with David's help. We'll see if I have it tomorrow.

Cheers, Joe

[jonsprag1]

I thought that my hatch covers were properly sealed too when I first got the boat and started rolling in it. Turned out they weren't---the little buggers can be deceptive

[shewhorn]

>I thought that my hatch covers were properly sealed too when

>I first got the boat and started rolling in it. Turned out

>they weren't---the little buggers can be deceptive

Yeah, I know... they can often look sealed but are really only partially sealed. In addition to pounding on the covers I've found that kneading/rolling the palm of your hand all the way around the cover catches areas that you may have missed.

I wonder if building up a layer of sex wax on the combing might help? The other thought I had was putting a thin layer of vinyl tape around the interface but that might be too thick.

Cheers, Joe

[jonsprag1]

Never thought of the sex wax----it would probably help--let me know if you try it

[scamlin]

Sticky NDK/KayakSport and Valley rubber hatch covers are much easier to seat and seal properly if they are regularly coated/soaked in 303 Protectant. The difference in flexibility is dramatic. It also protects them from UV rays and general degradation like drying, cracking, etc.

Since the Tempest hatch covers are a bit different material, not sure if this will work on yours. Might be worth a try.

Scott