Best Sling?

[hopefloats]

Any thoughts on the best Sling to use for practicing self rescues? (I need all the help I can get in this department)

Karen Knight had one that floats, but I don't remember who made it.

Thanks for any advice you might have...

Heidi

[bob budd]

Consider a short tow, daisy-chained to a shorter length. Then you also have a short tow line. Not sure how long you want to start with, something like fifteen feet.

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Heidi,

If you want one dedicated to the purpose, I have this one:

http://www.downwindsports.com/store/custom...9f8357380dfaefc

You of course could make your own or use something that can be used for other purposes, such as a short tow that Bob mentioned.

If you want to try the one I have, we can practice this weekend.

[hopefloats]

The description on this one says "...both boats..." I'm not familiar with a rescue using a sling and 2 boats... I thought a sling was used with a paddle float without the aid of another paddler (If I have a friend, I'd rather do a T-rescue)

will this still work with a paddle float by yourself?

Heidi

[hopefloats]

Not sure what daisy chained means. Is this a nautical knot? Sorry, I might be a little "wet behind the ears" for making my own...

Maybe we should post a nautical knot & term class for newbies the next time the weather is bad... Could be a fun pizza-and-beer-type class! Just an idea...

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

There isn't any real distinction. The sling is simply an unbroken loop of webbing that provides you with a stirrup of sorts to get back in the boat. It can be used during a t-rescue for those who just do not have the ability to get back in even when assisted. I had a few of those when attempting t-rescues as a guide. The sling can also be used as a solo rescue technique during the paddle float rescue by looping one end of the webbing on the paddle shaft, bringing the webbing under the boat and then looping it around the paddle shaft again on the other side of the boat, leaving enough slack for the stirup. It would simply be a paddle float rescue with that one addition.

There is no need to tie it, since the tension your foot applies is enough to hold it in place. Also, if the conditions caused you flip, you don't want to get back in the boat using this method and then have to spend valuable time trying to untie everything.

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Heidi,

I think Matt might know the daisy chain given his background. It is a method of shortening a line that makes it easy to lengthen it again when needed. I think anyone in the club could show you how to do it in 5 minutes or less.

There was reference to an interactive knot resource online some time ago. Does anyone remember it?

[Brian Nystrom]

IMO, slings are a really bad idea for several reasons:

1- They encourage - actually, they require - terrible technique. For a standard paddle float self-rescue, you should be on your stomach in the water with your feet at the surface. This allows you to kick/slide yourself up onto the aft deck with a minimum of effort and does not require much strength. The worst position to be in is with your body vertical in the water, which requires you to lift most of your body weight in order to get onto the deck. Slings require you to be more or less vertical in the water.

2- They put excessive stress on the paddle. The poor body position combined with the pulley action of the sling puts a lot of stress on the paddle shaft. Even if you're using a sling that doesn't wrap around the paddle (combined with rescue rigging to hold the paddle), hauling most of your weight vertically out of the water puts a lot of stress on the paddle. If your paddle breaks, what do you do? The heavier the paddle and the higher the aft deck, the greater the problem.

3- They don't work in when you need them the most. Sure, it's easy enough to put your foot into a sling properly on a dead-flat-calm pond, but try it sometime in the kind of conditions that are likely to cause a capsize. That's a whole 'nuther ball game!

4- They are an entanglement hazard. In rough water, it's very easy to end up with your foot through the sling. Even if you get your foot onto the sling properly, you're quite likely to have your feet go under the boat. Getting entangled in a sling in rough conditions is very dangerous! What happens if a wave rolls your water-laden kayak over on you when your foot/leg is tangled in the sling? It's not hard to imagine many ugly scenarios.

Rather than relying on a flawed idea that requires extra equipment, you'd be much better off to work on your technique. If you can't use the standard method, have someone show you the "heel hook" method of re-entry. It's easy and doesn't have any of the disadvantages of slings. In fact, it may actually be better overall than the standard technique.

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

>IMO, slings are a really bad idea for several reasons:

There are drawbacks to almost every rescue technique.

>1- They encourage - actually, they require - terrible

>technique. For a standard paddle float self-rescue, you

>should be on your stomach in the water with your feet at the

>surface. This allows you to kick/slide yourself up onto the

>aft deck with a minimum of effort and does not require much

>strength. The worst position to be in is with your body

>vertical in the water, which requires you to lift most of

>your body weight in order to get onto the deck. Slings

>require you to be more or less vertical in the water.

You don't have to be vertical to use the sling. Also, I would expect the most important thing is to be able to get back in the boat.

>

>2- They put excessive stress on the paddle. The poor body

>position combined with the pulley action of the sling puts a

>lot of stress on the paddle shaft. Even if you're using a

>sling that doesn't wrap around the paddle (combined with

>rescue rigging to hold the paddle), hauling most of your

>weight vertically out of the water puts a lot of stress on

>the paddle. If your paddle breaks, what do you do? The

>heavier the paddle and the higher the aft deck, the greater

>the problem.

Yes and no. I would agree that it adds stress, but you're not standing on the shaft. It's a temporary lift to help get the paddler back onto the back of the boat. If your paddle breaks, use the spare one you should have on the deck.

>

>3- They don't work in when you need them the most. Sure,

>it's easy enough to put your foot into a sling properly on a

>dead-flat-calm pond, but try it sometime in the kind of

>conditions that are likely to cause a capsize. That's a

>whole 'nuther ball game!

Again, could be said of most anything

>4- They are an entanglement hazard. In rough water, it's

>very easy to end up with your foot through the sling. Even

>if you get your foot onto the sling properly, you're quite

>likely to have your feet go under the boat. Getting

>entangled in a sling in rough conditions is very dangerous!

>What happens if a wave rolls your water-laden kayak over on

>you when your foot/leg is tangled in the sling? It's not

>hard to imagine many ugly scenarios.

Same could be said for boat tethers, paddle leashes and paddle float leashes.

>

>Rather than relying on a flawed idea that requires extra

>equipment, you'd be much better off to work on your

>technique. If you can't use the standard method, have

>someone show you the "heel hook" method of re-entry. It's

>easy and doesn't have any of the disadvantages of slings. In

>fact, it may actually be better overall than the standard

>technique.

The use of the stirrup does not mean that the paddler can't work on proper technique. It does provide a means to reenter the boat until the paddler can develop the proper technique. If the paddler doesn't, then it's the paddler's fault and not the fault or existence of the equipment. Also, the "heel hook" is a good method, but it's used for assisted rescues when the purpose here was for self-rescue.

IMO of course

[donperry]

http://www.animatedknots.com/

...but I tend to agree with Brian on this one.

[bob budd]

Sling does not have to attach to paddle. Any place you can clip it such as deck lines.

Agree it should not be the item of choice for rescue, self or otherwise.

Provides some with insufficient upper body strength a method of getting back on top of the boat. This could be due to permanent physical limitations, rescuing a large paddler, etc. Heel hook wouldn't help if the legs are compromised.

[hopefloats]

Wow, thanks for all the imput, everyone! Long story short -- I need lots more practice! I have not been successful pulling myself unassisted onto my boat. Using a paddle float proved to be exasperating (sp?) to me. I am a large paddler with very little arm strength, and definately haven't figured out the technique that works for me other than having help from others. Hopefully I'll see some of you on the water and you can show me different techniques for this...

I'll check out that link too... Thanks again!

Heidi

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

Tactful, very tactful

[Ben Fuller]

While the best sling is no sling, years of guiding and teaching have shown that there are some people who have serious challenges no matter how good the technique.

Guides up here routinely carry them and I think the one we have found least prone to tangle is floating rope, pretty good sized. 3/8-1/2 inch. Best one I ever had was a long spliced piece of 3 strand, long spliced so I could use the secret weapon, 8 inches or so of garden house through which sling was led. Slide the hose around to the your foot and step into it. Rope does not fold around foot. Same principle as rope ladder with wooden rungs. The hose works on knotted slings as well, just that it won't slide over the knot.

[Brian Nystrom]

>>IMO, slings are a really bad idea for several reasons:

>

>There are drawbacks to almost every rescue technique.

>

>>1- They encourage - actually, they require - terrible

>>technique. For a standard paddle float self-rescue, you

>>should be on your stomach in the water with your feet at the

>>surface. This allows you to kick/slide yourself up onto the

>>aft deck with a minimum of effort and does not require much

>>strength. The worst position to be in is with your body

>>vertical in the water, which requires you to lift most of

>>your body weight in order to get onto the deck. Slings

>>require you to be more or less vertical in the water.

>

>You don't have to be vertical to use the sling. Also, I

>would expect the most important thing is to be able to get

>back in the boat.

That's the whole point of any rescue. There are better ways that using a sling.

>>2- They put excessive stress on the paddle. The poor body

>>position combined with the pulley action of the sling puts a

>>lot of stress on the paddle shaft. Even if you're using a

>>sling that doesn't wrap around the paddle (combined with

>>rescue rigging to hold the paddle), hauling most of your

>>weight vertically out of the water puts a lot of stress on

>>the paddle. If your paddle breaks, what do you do? The

>>heavier the paddle and the higher the aft deck, the greater

>>the problem.

>

>Yes and no. I would agree that it adds stress, but you're

>not standing on the shaft. It's a temporary lift to help

>get the paddler back onto the back of the boat.

It only takes "temporary" stress to break a paddle.

>If your paddle breaks, use the spare one you should have on the

>deck.

I agree that people should carry spares, but it strikes me that the people most likely to use a sling (beginners) are also the least likely to have a spare paddle.

>>3- They don't work in when you need them the most. Sure,

>>it's easy enough to put your foot into a sling properly on a

>>dead-flat-calm pond, but try it sometime in the kind of

>>conditions that are likely to cause a capsize. That's a

>>whole 'nuther ball game!

>

>Again, could be said of most anything

All rescues are more difficult in rough conditions, but some still work well, while others become essentially useless.

>>4- They are an entanglement hazard. In rough water, it's

>>very easy to end up with your foot through the sling. Even

>>if you get your foot onto the sling properly, you're quite

>>likely to have your feet go under the boat. Getting

>>entangled in a sling in rough conditions is very dangerous!

>>What happens if a wave rolls your water-laden kayak over on

>>you when your foot/leg is tangled in the sling? It's not

>>hard to imagine many ugly scenarios.

>

>Same could be said for boat tethers, paddle leashes and

>paddle float leashes.

I don't use or recommend those, either. There is simply no need for them for most types of paddling.

>>Rather than relying on a flawed idea that requires extra

>>equipment, you'd be much better off to work on your

>>technique. If you can't use the standard method, have

>>someone show you the "heel hook" method of re-entry. It's

>>easy and doesn't have any of the disadvantages of slings. In

>>fact, it may actually be better overall than the standard

>>technique.

>

>The use of the stirrup does not mean that the paddler can't

>work on proper technique.

True, but if someone comes to rely on a sling, they're less likely to work on proper technique that may be more difficult for them to learn. Using a sling leads to a false sense of security, since the technique is difficult (or impossible) to use in conditions that are likely to cause a capsize.

>It does provide a means to

>reenter the boat until the paddler can develop the proper

>technique.

The time wasted screwing around learning to use a sling can be better spent working on superior techniques.

>If the paddler doesn't, then it's the paddler's

>fault and not the fault or existence of the equipment.

What good does pointing fingers do when one is in the water with no way to get back into the boat?

>Also, the "heel hook" is a good method, but it's used for

>assisted rescues when the purpose here was for self-rescue.

Not true. It works fine with a paddle float for self-rescue, too.

[eneumeier]

Yo Brian,

I find this a bit doctrinaire.

I carry a sling, know quite a few ways to use it, and have found, in conditions, it to be the quickest way for me to get my ample ballast back into my boat.

Heidi: Learn as many different methods as you can.

Liz N.

[Gillian]

Heidi, great question and keep posting and keep asking questions!!! I've used it a couple times in pool sessions, and the bottom line is that you need to get back in your boat . . . I agree with Liz to learn as many different methods of re-entry as you can. If you make it out to Salem tonight or next week we can practice using the sling and also we can start teaching you how to very ungracefully slither up the back of your boat using the paddle float. There's a lot of cursing and grunting involved which always makes it a good show, unless of course you're Billy or Kevin who can hop the the back of a damn boat and make it look effortless . . . .

[Gcosloy]

My advise is that rescue aids are just that-RESCUE aids! If a ladder can get you back in the boat-bring one. I can slither on top of the back deck OK. Could I do it in angry seas after paddling all day and exhausted-who knows? Thats why I always carry a sling and a pair of clip on sea sponsons. The other point already made is that by looping the sling over the inboard paddle shaft going under the hull and wrapping a couple of times over the outboard shaft you create with the pressure on the sling loop with your foot an amazingly stable paddle float outrigger that you no longer need to worry about slipping around on your rear deck while you're trying to reenter the boat. There are some boats that have convex back decks behind the combing that make securing the paddle with one hand somewhat challenging. For this secondary reason alone the sling is useful to have in your bag of tricks. Eschewing a safety option because it might have you ignore proper technique is analagous to learning to hand roll before learning rolling with the paddle since it may encourage bad technique. The point after all is RESCUE, not elegant technique. When you're confident you can reenter the boat under challenging conditions using whatever aid works for you, then continue to explore other more elegant techniques. Having multiple methods at your disposal makes you that much safer.

[jonsprag1]

I agree with both you and Ben Fuller---I always carry a sling--i.e. tubed nylon webbing which can be purchased cheaply in any mountain climbing supply store---REI, LL Bean, EMS etc. Also have never had occasion to actually use it in real conditions although have practiced with it myself and used in once when I was giving a client a lesson in self rescue in a pool(she was a rather heavy lady and had trouble initially without the sling----after some practice she learned how to paddle float rescue w/o the sling but found it necessary the first time). Also agree that it is nice to have multiple methods available--I have a pretty good roll but don't know how it would work if I went over in high winds and seas after tiring myself out from 8 hours of paddling. I have always been interested in sponsons but have never seen them for sale anywhere---where did you buy yours? PS---I also use my sling for a contact tow(that's actually its primary purpose)---that way I don't have to daisy chain my regular tow rope.

[Gcosloy]

I'll give you the URL for the site where my purchase was made.

http://www.sponsonguy.com/

Don't be put off by the author's rather aggressive style. Tim is reviled by many in the professional ranks of the kayak community, mostly for his rancor and style. The real question is, personality aside, is this a viable and legitimate rescue aid? The USCG in a report thinks so. I have never had to use them. In practice I've clipped them on while still in the boat and also outside the boat. If your out of the boat, the sponsons facilitate a relatively tip free cowboy style rescue.

[donperry]

Whether you use a paddle float (heel or toe) or a sling to get your torso over the boat makes little difference in a self rescue. Both methods put you in a bad position above the deck and the bigger you are, the more unstable you are. Getting seated again can be a real challenge for the larger individual. It can often involve a few capsizes along with equipment snags and some bruising & strains.

The sling may make it easier to put yourself back into the same precarious position. But there are more options with the paddle float.

Even if you cannot reenter & roll up, you can reenter with one paddle end on top of the hull and the paddle blade w/float extended out 90 degrees from the hull. A large torso reaching out toward the float will probably submerge the float. But if the torso is rotated way back, so that the head actually touches the deck, the float will stay on the surface and you can slowly roll the boat back underneath you. Then the pumping out process can begin if your pump is accessible.

This is an easy thing to practice from an upright position.

• Extend the float end of the paddle as far to one side as you can with the other blade resting on top at the other side. It should stay in that position while the boat rolls underneath it.

• JAM YOUR KNEES HARD OUTWARD & UP UNDER THE DECK.

• Lay as far back as you can, looking skyward.

• Stay in that position keeping the float extended 90 degrees out from the hull. Do not let it lose contact with or rotate up beside the hull or your head.

• Slowly let yourself roll over toward the paddle. A little at first. You should be able to stop at any angle and return to your starting position. When going all the way over there is a point at which the hand closest to the float will be crossing in front of you and will have to be released. Keep the paddle in position with the other hand and relax. Get used to being inverted and looking at the bottom. BUT KEEP YOUR KNEES TIGHT UP UNDER THE DECK.

• Slowly start to return by pulling on the float with your remaining arm. Reach across and grip the paddle with your free hand after you’ve come up a little. One end of the paddle is supported by the top of the boat and the other by the paddle float. Leaning your torso out toward the float will sink it as you star to roll back up. So keep your torso and head way back on the aft deck while you are under.

Basically all the moves are slow and deliberate in this exercise. It gets you used to being submerged & inverted. It also teaches you what happens when your body is not firmly wedged into the kayak. And it doesn’t work at all if your torso is not as close to the kayak as possible.

As a reentry technique it avoids the possible consequences of being face down on the aft deck.

[rcohn]

> Eschewing a safety option because it might

>have you ignore proper technique is analagous to learning to

>hand roll before learning rolling with the paddle since it

>may encourage bad technique.

I think learning to hand roll before learning to use the paddle is a way to encourage very good technique. There are many ways to be very sloppy with a paddle, hand rolling requires far more precision. For example, lift your head a bit with a paddle, no problem, do it on a hand roll, big problem.

This is not merely a hypothetical point. When teaching Greenland technique to a paddler with an excellent balance brace (usually a woman) it may be easier to progress directly to a hand roll where there is no need to worry about the mechanics of handling a paddle. I haven’t seen this done, but I’ve heard reliable reports of teaching this sequence.

Ralph

[EEL]

>Any thoughts on the best Sling to use for practicing self

>rescues?

I don'tknow about slings, but I have heard from an recognized authority that exactly 1278 angels can dance on the head of a pin manufactured within the tolerances set by the International Sewing Standards Institute. Somehow it seemed relevant, but perhaps not.

Ed Lawson

[bob budd]

If you need sponsons to reenter the boat you'd be better not to be out on the water alone in the first place. This seems like going too far to accomodate the lone paddler's limitations and places them at risk, rather than making them safer. The appearance of safety against the actual risk is perhaps the source of some of the negative feelings. After all, we all still like Brian...

[Gcosloy]

>> Eschewing a safety option because it might

>>have you ignore proper technique is analagous to learning to

>>hand roll before learning rolling with the paddle since it

>>may encourage bad technique.

>

>I think learning to hand roll before learning to use the

>paddle is a way to encourage very good technique. There are

>many ways to be very sloppy with a paddle, hand rolling

>requires far more precision. For example, lift your head a

>bit with a paddle, no problem, do it on a hand roll, big

>problem.

>

I knew my example was capable of encouraging exactlly your response. My point was not to denigrate hand rolling of which I'm personally in awe of, but instead to encourage paddlers to adopt whatever technique works for them given a limited skill set as a novice. For three years I had no ability to roll due to limited torso flexibility. Through stretching exercise, I can now roll, however my flexibility is still not good enough to rest my head on the rear deck with ease, a requirement I suspect that might be a prerequiste for hand-rolling. If I'm wrong you can show me at Walden this evening.