Extend the Paddle After Failing a Roll?

[leong]

A friend was practicing his less than bombproof sweep roll. Each time he failed on two consecutive movements he signaled for a bow rescue or just wet exited. I suggested that before giving up he should use the extended paddle roll (Pawlata) before he ran out of air. He responded that the Pawlata roll encourages bad habits and, in addition, it would be dangerous or ineffective near rocks.

I'm not so sure the Pawlata encourages bad habits. Nevertheless, my recommendation is to resort to the Pawlata roll during practice before you run out of air (or energy) with your preferred roll (sweep, C-C, etc.). I think that the resulting practice with the Pawlata might come in handy in a "combat" situation whenever your preferred (non-Pawlata) roll fails. In fact, I think you should occasionally practice the Pawlata roll even if you have a bombproof roll when practicing.

Of course you should practice bow rescues and wet exits as well.

What say you?

-Leon

[kate]

Pawlata is very much like a greenland-style layback roll, which uses an extended paddle. Like every other roll, it can be done with good form or with poor form. I have never had to use my greenland roll near rocks, but I feel certain that it would be less dangerous than a wet exit.

[Brian Nystrom]

I absolutely agree with Kate; ANY successful roll is better than a wet exit.

It sounds like your friend has been influenced by some dogmatic source, either in person or print. "My way or the highway" simply doesn't apply when one's safety is at stake. The utter stupidity of the idea that an extended roll should not be used if a standard roll fails should be self-evident. Whoever indoctrinated your friend with this lunacy needs a good slap up aside the head!

[leong]

I absolutely agree with Kate; ANY successful roll is better than a wet exit.

It sounds like your friend has been influenced by some dogmatic source, either in person or print. "My way or the highway" simply doesn't apply when one's safety is at stake. The utter stupidity of the idea that an extended roll should not be used if a standard roll fails should be self-evident. Whoever indoctrinated your friend with this lunacy needs a good slap up aside the head!

Kate and Brian,

Yes, I agree of course. But I don't think he'd wet exit after a combat capsize and failed roll while alone without first attempting a Pawlata. That would really be dumb. It’s just that he doesn't want to fall back on the Pawlata during rolling practice sessions. My point is that that is a very good time to do the Pawlata; i.e. you want to get it into muscle memory for the possible time when you really need it.

Thanks, I’ll point him to this thread.

-Leon

[Gcosloy]

Yes Kate's point is a good one-the Pawlata is very similar to the Greenland layback roll. And no one disparages it either. I think the knock on the Pawlata is part of the knock on all extended paddle strokes, like the sweep. Derek Hutchinson must be rolling in his grave!

[Pintail]

Sir Leon, old friend, how are you?

<Of course> you are right about your recommendation -- if I failed my roll, I'd use that one, too (extended paddle -- it <is> the pawlata, isn't it?)! The other respondents are all correct, too (Who is this Nystrom fellow, by the way? I seem to remember the name; but I have it on good authority that he doesn't know the front end from the back end of a sea-kayak, these days -- he's just a road cyclist!)

The BCU may have had their disagreements over technique with Derek; but (bless his old Yorkshire heart!) his classes helped people to overcome their timidity of being on edge and way "beyond the cockpit" -- and <that> cannot ever be described as a bad thing, can it? (And that phrase <was> the name of his regular class!)

Go on, Leon: encourage your acquaintance to practise the pawlata roll as a stand-by...

Edited June 15, 2015 by Pintail

[Michael_Crouse]

I would say in some situations it could be dangerous, like big surf, but 99% of the time I say extending or sliding your hands is fine.

[leong]

Well, I think we’re all preaching to the choir on this topic. I sent my friend a link to this thread. Let’s hope the weight of all these opinions will change his mind.

Leon - an old (but still young) friend of the Sir Christopher

PS
Slightly off topic: Many paddlers think the Pawlata roll is ugly. But, as they say, different strokes for different folks. For example, Janet Evans won swimming gold medals in the ’88 and ’92 Olympics using an unorthodox "windmill" stroke.

[Brian Nystrom]

Sir Christopher,

Yes, I'm guilty as charged, though I would point out that our (Linda's and mine) two-wheeled activities also include mountain biking, cyclocross and fat-bikes on the snow and sand. We keep talking about dusting off the boats and I'm sure that it will eventually happen.

On a somewhat related topic, while on a ride yesterday on the cape, I was passed by a couple of cars carrying a teal over white Surge and a yellow over white Anas Acuta. They appeared to be headed toward the Scraggy Neck area. Were these folks NSPN'ers?

[Pintail]

May we take this conversation (this virtual conversation!) a step further and slightly off-topic?

It was Derek's having taught me (us -- his class, which I repeated the next season) the extended stroke for <sweeping> that got me lying down in the water and sculling on my back, from which position I then graduated to sculling with hands in "normal" position. By saying which, I mean I taught myself (further) with the tools he gave me...

Yes, maestro Crouse (hello, you!) and others, of course BCU have reasons for their preferences; but they <have> caved-in, thus far, on the use of Greenland paddles, for example, in star testing, haven't they? (Their use was a no-no until just a few years ago) Perhaps, one day, they will look less awry at extended paddle strokes.

[John Martinsen]

Wave ski paddlers use an extended paddle roll, and that's in an incredibly dynamic environment on a very small craft (while strapped to it as well) to good effect. Definitely better than a swim, the trick is being able to quickly reorient yourself and the paddle, to be ready for whatever else is coming your way.

"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds..."

[leong]

Yes, the waveski boys and girls do an extended paddle roll. Like this in the pool and this in the surf (roll occurs near the middle of the video).

-Leon

[Michael_Crouse]

Those waves have nice long periods, I was thinking about sloppy stuff that's hitting you every few seconds.

Besides one of those guys is holding his paddle upside down, clearly he doesn't know what he's doing! ;-)

[Lallen]

Phil and I were taking a semi-private whitewater on a river in Vermont a few years ago. It was our first formal whitewater river instruction. Phil capsized, and being a little stressed in the new environment immediately resorted to an extended paddle roll. A college student who was a skilled whitewater paddler was assisting our coach-an L5 ACA and BCU Level 5 Coach. when Phil came up, the college kid looked a bit perplexed. The coach commented to the whitewater paddler (who also had a bit of experience sea kayaking). "You've never seen that move, have you? It's called a Pawlata Roll, and you might want to add it to your toolbox."

We both laughed. 'Nuff said.

[PeterB]

to play Devils advocate: if the Pawlata roll is reliable enough to be everybody's back up or last resort roll; why not use the Pawlata from

the get go?

[leong]

to play Devils advocate: if the Pawlata roll is reliable enough to be everybody's back up or last resort roll; why not use the Pawlata from

the get go?

I don’t think you should worry about using the Pawlata as your main roll. However, I can think of three possible drawbacks to the Pawlata roll, namely:

1. The Pawlata roll takes a little longer to perform.

2. The Pawlata roll may not work in tight spaces like rock gardens.

3. At the end of a Pawlata roll your paddle is not in the best position to deal with whatever caused you to capsize in the first place.

-Leon

[leong]

PS

I just found this article about the Pawlata. It notes these benefits:

"Once upright you will find yourself in the extended high brace position which is a very supportive brace. Since you just capsized, coming up into a powerful brace position is advantageous. You can go right into an extended sculling brace to give yourself added support while you get reoriented to being upright and let the water drain from your nose."

and

"You will find this roll to be very powerful. As you perfect the extended paddle roll you will find yourself upright by the time your paddle just passes the 90 degree position (3 o'clock.) This roll works very well when your kayak is full of gear and if gear is on the top deck. Those who paddle Sit On Tops and use thigh braces will find this to be the roll of choice if they ever use a roll."

-Leon

[John Martinsen]

I saw a person break a Werner carbon foam core paddle during an extended paddle roll. Quite the testiment to the amount of power generated and how bad form can cost you $400 very quickly.

[rick stoehrer]

to play Devils advocate: if the Pawlata roll is reliable enough to be everybody's back up or last resort roll; why not use the Pawlata from
the get go?

to answer your question peter....i think the drawback is the manipulation of the paddle in your hands....from a regular paddling position you don't need to adjust or manipulate to extend the paddle in your hands with a c/c or sweep roll and with an extended paddle roll, you do. the extension takes time and you are moving your hands around on the paddle...you can fumble it and sometimes all this is going on upside down in bumpy places. simpler is often better because of the practicality.

[leong]

i think the drawback <of the Pawlata> is the manipulation of the paddle in your hands....from a regular paddling position you don't need to adjust or manipulate to extend the paddle in your hands with a c/c or sweep roll and with an extended paddle roll, you do. the extension takes time and you are moving your hands around on the paddle...you can fumble it and sometimes all this is going on upside down in bumpy places. simpler is often better because of the practicality.

In general, this is all true. Nevertheless, for the case where someone has a much more reliable extended paddle roll it might be better to use the Pawlata from the get go, at least for a combat roll.

For example, since I switched to a wing paddle my standard sweep roll has become less reliable in practice sessions. So, to recover from a combat capsize, I plan to go directly to the Pawlata roll. I figure that the extra time for a successful first roll pales in comparison to several attempts or a wet exit.

Yeah, I know, I need more practice rolling with the wing.

-Leon

[Lallen]

Agree with the comments above about potential drawbacks. For me, it's all about the tools in the toolbox. If you have a standard roll, why mess around with Pawlata rolls, re-enter and roll, Greenland rolls-or even Cowboy or assisted rescues? Because if one method fail in one situation, you have other options readily available....