Rolling while Blind

[leong]

I generally do my practice rolls while wearing swim goggles. I wear the goggles to prevent eye irritation as well as to give me a clear view of my body and paddle movements. I especially try to keep my eye on the working blade during the entire roll movement; I think this helps me from making the “heads-up-first” mistake.

Last year I began to wonder if wearing swim goggles was a good way to practice for actual combat rolls. That’s because, when a combat roll is needed, it may be dark and/or the water may be too murky to see what I’m doing. So I decided to practice rolling with my eyes closed.

Once upside down with my eyes closed, I "blindly' do my best to push the blade up to the surface, sweep it out and hip snap through to the surface. Then I often stall and plunge back underwater. Apparently, because I can’t see, I'm doing something wrong that causes the failure. After each such failure I reopen my eyes underwater and do a successful roll on the second try.

I still haven’t perfected my “blind” roll, but I’ve improved quite a bit. In fact, I aced the last two I tried a few days ago.

Comments?

[EEL]

Leon:

My guess is you are just going through the travails of learning to roll. I suspect you have relied upon seeing to orient yourself and thinking about such things as blade angle, etc. which in turn means you did not need to develop a "positional sense" to setup and roll. So you are having difficulty with the mechanics without the information you are accustomed to obtaining visually. I suspect with more time you will develop "positional awareness" and it will all just work. By "positional awareness" I mean you know how your body is positioned and where it is going. Once you know how it feels to go through the roll sequence, you roll by duplicating that feeling and all that stuff about blade angle, etc. is never thought about. Not sure if this is the same as muscle memory or is simply letting the Force guide you.

Ed Lawson

[Doug]

Leon,

When your eyes are open, you said it, you watch your blade. When they are closed, make believe you are watching your blade. If you blindly follow it, your body, and most importantly, your head will remain in the proper position as it follows the blades sweep.

Doug

[Pintail]

I bet anything that Doug is on the right track -- the thing that would cause you to stall and fall back into the briny, Leon, has to be "head up" (too early, that is)...

[PeterB]

Interesting. I would think that if you practice your rolls with goggled eyes following the blade, you would be building that muscle memory that would then come into play in all your rolls, blind or not. Much of rolling is about muscle memory. Evidently, removing your eyes from the equation breaks some link in your body mechanics, suggesting our eyes are linked to, or integral to, your muscle memory "system" : something that an expert on motor skills (and rolling) could comment on with more lucidity than I can .

[billvoss]

I certainly agree with you Leon that for a "combat" roll you need to practice wearing only the gear you wear in "combat." Transitioning to that by closing your eyes while wearing goggles is a good approach.

Doug has already described the most likely cause of your current issue. Pretending you are looking at the paddle blade may be all you need to roll up successfully with your eyes closed.

If Doug's solution does not solve your problem within two or three tries, then I suggest you try a more incremental training approach. You said:

I "blindly' do my best to push the blade up to the surface, sweep it out and hip snap through to the surface.

Instead of an "all blind" approach, try gradually doing more of the roll with your eyes closed. So use a progression something like this:

1. Blink, then capsize and do a roll with your eyes open.
2. Close your eyes, capsize, open your eyes, finish the roll.
3. Close your eyes, capsize, push the blade to the surface, open your eyes and roll.
4. Close your eyes, capsize, push blade to surface, start sweep and open eyes during sweep.
5. Close your eyes, capsize, setup, sweep, open eyes as head comes out of water.

The exact progression does not matter, just work from success to success. If your roll flops, open your eyes earlier next time. If you do a sweet roll, keep your eyes closed a tiny bit longer next time. Since you already have a reliable goggle roll, you just need to find where your blind roll is different.

Besides head position, two other easily solved possibilities that come to mind are not getting your blade to the surface when blind, and a diving paddle blade angle when blind. You can "slap the water" with your paddle blade to confirm you really have reached the surface. Try that with eyes open and closed and you will quickly feel the difference. Once you know your blade is at the surface, blade angle is usually pretty easy to feel, though you may have been using sight to judge it before. Again move your blade around with your eyes open and closed to dial in the feel for the proper blade angle.

While I want to minimize how much you "practice" failing to roll, the bright side is that practicing coming up on your second attempt is also very good "combat" practice. If you roll on both sides, you should also practice changing sides when your first roll fails. In "combat" if your first roll fails there is a good chance rolling on the other side will be much easier. However, you have to practice switching sides or you won't do it in "combat."

[billvoss]

Interesting. I would think that if you practice your rolls with goggled eyes following the blade, you would be building that muscle memory that would then come into play in all your rolls, blind or not.

The eyes provide a lot of feedback. Think about a major league baseball player with wonderful muscle memory for hitting the ball. Now make him swing with his eyes closed! His swing may be beautiful, but his aim and timing will probably be off.

A roll can also use a lot of feedback. For example how long it takes from the start of your capsize for your kayak, body, and paddle to all reach the "setup" position can vary considerably. If you have practiced using mainly your eyes to judge that point in time, closing your eyes can cause you to start your sweep way too early.

Successful rolls also involve a series of steps. If you have always practiced with your eyes open, then seeing for example the "setup" position may be your cue to begin sweeping. I sometimes see beginners who capsize, then try to roll while sitting straight up(side down) in their kayak with their head pointing straight towards the bottom. They are disoriented and never float up towards the surface into a proper setup position before beginning their sweep.

Closing your eyes can also change your sense of time, especially while also being upside down under water. Even if you are not consciously scared, the lizard brain stem knows you are doing something stupid and dangerous, and that you are going to run out of AIR SOON!

[leong]

Thanks everyone - great analysis and advice. I’m away from the warm water now (driving North) but I did come up with some similar analysis on my own before I left FLA; it seemed to help (especially Bill’s idea to close my eyes during different parts of the roll sequence).

I just wonder if I’m the only oddball person who has trouble rolling with closed eyes.

-Leon

PS
I don’t think it’s the problem but I forgot to mention that I’m using a wing paddle (the Epic Mid-Wing).

[billvoss]

I just wonder if I’m the only oddball person who has trouble rolling with closed eyes.

...

I don’t think it’s the problem but I forgot to mention that I’m using a wing paddle (the Epic Mid-Wing).

You are not an oddball. It is a stage most people who first learned with a mask or goggles go through. Though I don't recall when I last wore a mask while rolling, I learned with a mask, and I still open my eyes some of the time. Especially if I miss my first roll. I still advocate that beginners start rolling wearing a mask or goggles because they usually get their first rolls sooner.

Very few humans know exactly what their body is doing as it moves through any motion sequence. Last year during a roll training session I told my mentor that I normally first moved my body and paddle perpendicular to the kayak for a particular roll. I then performed the roll and was informed that my paddle was actually closer to 135 degrees than 90 degrees. I opened my eyes at that point during the next roll, and the mentor was absolutely correct. I was getting up either way, but with my eyes closed I was not doing what I thought I was doing.

Rolling with a wing paddle has a reputation for being a bit harder. However, since you report no problems rolling with the wing unless you are blind, I don't think that is your current issue either.

-Bill

P.S.

Be sure to let us know once you get three blind rolls in a row!