Winter gloves

[josko]

I like NRS Maverick 'dry' gloves for winter paddling, but they're only lasting me ~40-60 hrs of paddling before getting large holes (on the inside of the fingers). Is that to be expected? I also have NRS Hydroskin neoprene gloves, and they are lasting fine, but are not nearly as warm.

Is it something about my grip that's wearing these holes? I do paddle with a 60 deg feather, so there's a bit of shaft sliding in the hands at each stroke.

I like the gloves, just hate to have to keep buying them. Suggestions?

[Doug]

I use GLACIER GLOVES and carry 2 pairs. I use the 1.5 mm pair when I launch and change to the 2 mm pair after the mid day break. Typically I limit my paddles to one or two breaks at the very most during the winter as previous frostbite causes my extremities to get cold pretty fast.

I did a quick search and was a bit hard pressed to find the 1.5 mm gloves at this time. I'm sure if spend enough time you can find anything.

Interesting that when I went to the Glacier Glove website, they only listed a fishing version of the gloves I use. Perhaps they are specifically made for certain outfitters.

Note: The only breakdown I have had in the past with these gloves has been a delaminating of the seams. They seen to have beefed up the gloves I currently own and I have had no issues with them.

http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___63483

Doug

[Marshall]

Doug,

The Perfect Curve Glacier Glove is on the Cycling tab of the Glacier Glove website. That's the 2mm version.

I've found they're one of the few truly waterproof neo gloves that gives fine tactile contact without the bulk. Your hands will become moistened by perspiration but that's warmer than the ice water. The raw rubber exterior makes them windproof which is far better than the usual tricot exterior neoprene gloves I've used in the past. No evaporative chill.

They're not all that hard to find.

I even know of a place in Hyde Park, NY that has 'em.

See you on the water,

Marshall

The River Connection, Inc.

Hyde Park, NY

www.the-river-connection.com

hudsonriverpaddler.org

[Doug]

Thanks Marshall...

http://glacierglove.com/our-products/cycling/perfect-curve-glove.html

Doug

[cgr]

Are Pogies an option for you?

[josko]

I do use pogies, but in rough water prefer gloves so I can shift my grip.

[jason]

I do use pogies, but in rough water prefer gloves so I can shift my grip.

You might look at other pogies. Mine can move around my paddle. I also tend to toss them in the middle of the paddle at times when my hands get too hot.

[bbjorn]

I love my 2mm Glacier gloves. They really are reasonably dry and quite warm.

I just ordered a 2nd pair.

Blaine

[josko]

Just for the heck of it, i switched from my usual 60 deg Left feather to 60 Right yesterday, and notice I'm wearing the same hole (in the NRS Maverick glove), but on my other hand now. Kind of interesting - with the left feather I'm wearing a hole in my right glove (on the inside of the thumb), and with the RH feather, on the same place on the left glove. I'm guessing it has to do with switching the controlling hand along with feather. I notice the shaft rotates in my hand (when paddle's in mid-air), and that rotation apparently wears holes.

I got a hole in the glove with just 20 miles of paddling on Sunday. What am I doing wrong? I don't think I'm holding the shaft tightly at all.

[Phil Allen]

....

I got a hole in the glove with just 20 miles of paddling on Sunday. What am I doing wrong? I don't think I'm holding the shaft tightly at all.

work towards using a paddle with less feather? Then there will be less rotation of the paddle shaft on the surface of the glove.

Phil

[josko]

Maybe this is for a separate thread, but what feather angle is most efficient? I seem to work really well, especially in wind or 'conditions', with 60 degrees.

[Phil Allen]

Hey Josko-

It's your thread, so take it where you will (or start another one for more responses). High angle feathers came out of the slalom racers, who needed to get the paddle by the gate without hitting it. Clearly in that activity, getting a ~9 inch paddle face around the pole versus the ~ 0.5" face made a huge difference.

As for the wind and lump, I'd bet it's just what you've trained your body to work with. The amount of exposed surface area on the paddle face is small compared to that of the paddler and boat. If you're racing, maybe that extra drag is important. But I don't race so can't say. And in conditions (water conditions I assume) it shouldn't matter at all except in the context of muscle memory.

I learned with 45-60 degree feather, and have worked my way down to 0-15 degree. I like having a paddle face in the ready position on either side without substantially changing my hand positions and it's easier on my body. It did take some time to get there though.

best

Phil

[leong]

Maybe this is for a separate thread, but what feather angle is most efficient? I seem to work really well, especially in wind or 'conditions', with 60 degrees.

For what's it's worth here's a long thread on the feather-angle topic.

PS

After a bout of tennis elbow I reduced my feather angle to 30 degrees. My shaft rotates a little just before I plant the non-control-side paddle in the water.

[lhunt]

I think you can get your feather angle just right so it matches your core rotation and the paddle shaft does not have to turn in your hands at all. As pointed out in the thread that Leon pointed to, typically, the paddle turns in the lower hand when the upper wrist is cocking. Why is the wrist cocking? To get the paddle face aligned against the water. Set the feather angle to whatever gets the alignment without cocking. Saves your wrists and forearms, not to mention your gloves!

Now that I've worked with it a little more, I'm beginning to think that one other variable (besides how vertical your paddle is) is the width of your boat where the paddle goes into the water. The narrower the foredeck, the more you can rotate your core before the catch, so the higher your feather angle should be.

Once you get rid of the cocking you can get rid of the control hand. Concentrate on using the top hand to plant the blade into the water, keeping the lower hand relatively loose, then switch as you go.

Oh, and "just" 20 miles of paddling on Sunday? Way to go!

Lisa

Edited April 30, 2014 by LHuntington

[Phil Allen]

I think you can get your feather angle just right so it matches your core rotation and the paddle shaft does not have to turn in your hands at all. As pointed out in the thread that Leon pointed to, typically, the paddle turns in the lower hand when the upper wrist is cocking. Why is the wrist cocking? To get the paddle face aligned against the water. Set the feather angle to whatever gets the alignment without cocking. Saves your wrists and forearms, not to mention your gloves!

Now that I've worked with it a little more, I'm beginning to think that one other variable (besides how vertical your paddle is) is the width of your boat where the paddle goes into the water. The narrower the foredeck, the more you can rotate your core before the catch, so the higher your feather angle should be.

Once you get rid of the cocking you can get rid of the control hand. Concentrate on using the top hand to plant the blade into the water, keeping the lower hand relatively loose, then switch as you go.

Oh, and "just" 20 miles of paddling on Sunday? Way to go!

Lisa

Hi Lisa-

Maybe I'm missing something, but why should the paddle be turning in the lower hand? That's the hand that's controlling placement and applying force through the paddle to the water. I think I'd want that to be firmly connected to the paddle shaft. Wouldn't the upper hand seem to be the one that should be loose?

best

Phil

[leong]

Hi Lisa-

Maybe I'm missing something, but why should the paddle be turning in the lower hand? That's the hand that's controlling placement and applying force through the paddle to the water. I think I'd want that to be firmly connected to the paddle shaft. Wouldn't the upper hand seem to be the one that should be loose?

best

Phil

Perhaps this from Brent Reitz’s Forward Stroke is relevant:

“Think about initiating the stroke with the upper hand, “spearing” to set the blade. Don’t allow the lower hand to take charge until you have the blade buried.”

-Leon (Lisa's assistant)

[Phil Allen]

Hi Leon-

I get the quote, but still think it's an important question. Why use something so far away from the task "at hand"? I'd suggest that the upper hand is most useful in controlling the angle of entry by its position in space more than its grip and angulation on the paddle.

best

Phil

[lhunt]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why should the paddle be turning in the lower hand? That's the hand that's controlling placement and applying force through the paddle to the water. I think I'd want that to be firmly connected to the paddle shaft. Wouldn't the upper hand seem to be the one that should be loose?

Well... I don't think the paddle should be turning at all. There is a real goal for you - get it so the paddle hits the water at the right angle on both sides, symmetrically, without turning the paddle. Because to get the paddle to turn you are probably cocking the right wrist, which is a risk factor for overuse injury. To get there, you experiment with your stroke, freezing it as the right and then the left paddle is suspended over the water, without cocking the wrist. If the angle of paddle-to-boat is wrong (not facing squarely back), adjust the feather angle to compensate. For most people I think the correct feather angle is 0 deg., but slight differences in the angle of your elbows and other things can change it.

If you hold your hands in front of you and imitate the cocking motion, you will see that it is exactly the same thing as feathering the paddle. It happens on every stroke, so why not set the paddle up that way permanently?

Now, as to why the upper hand does the plant, I couldn't figure it out, so I just tried it. It took a whole 9 mile river run to get the knack of it, and still often I forget. But there is no question that it helps with efficiency. One thing is that it loosens the lower hand, allowing it to extend the fingers a little into a hook. It also uses your biceps to do the plant, rather than triceps. I feel that it gives me better control of the angle of the catch (the first part of the stroke).

But between getting the top hand to do the plant and getting the wrist not to cock, the latter is probably much more important.

I get the quote, but still think it's an important question. Why use something so far away from the task "at hand"? I'd suggest that the upper hand is most useful in controlling the angle of entry by its position in space more than its grip and angulation on the paddle.

Well, yes, the position of the hand in space is certainly the thing. You aren't going to control the angle of the paddle with your hand muscles (either hand).

The goal for efficiency is to get the paddle in there as quickly as possible. You don't really "pull" or "push", you just get it into the water at the right angle and then rotate at the core, transmitting the rotation through both hands. The bottom part of that can be done with the fingers, which allows the paddle to go in just a tiny bit more forward. "Stabbing" it in with the top hand is just a little quicker, I think (because of the muscles used).

Try this with your stroke. Try to do whatever is necessary so that you see your upper fist going across in front of your face, right along the horizon. If your upper hand is diving as you paddle, it's because you're not getting the whole paddle in before rotating. To see that hand going across levelly (is that a word?), you have to get the whole blade in before you start rotating back.

Lisa

[Phil Allen]

Lisa-

Great description. Your words describe what I aspire too in my forward stroke. My apologies for some of the leading questions trying to draw out what made sense to me. Now if I could just apply it well enough to keep up with some of the "fast folk".

Best

Phil

[leong]

Adding to Lisa’s good sense:

Aside from the possible disadvantages for wrist ergonomics and rolling and bracing, feathering has an energy advantage. Obviously, it saves energy when paddling into high winds. The higher the angle of your blade, the less resistance you will encounter. Obviously, an un-feathered paddle is better when the wind is at your back. So if you always paddle downwind definitely use an un-feathered paddle. Nevertheless, in a round trip with equal up- and down-wind legs, the total energy expended with a feathered paddle is less than it is with an un-feathered paddle.

As Barton said, “When feathered paddles first began showing up at races, those using these paddles performed better, especially in headwind races. Therefore, nearly all racers switched to feathered paddles for greater efficiency.”

But despite what Barton said, for most paddlers the slight energy advantage of feathering is not very important. In that case just set the feather angle (perhaps a 0-degree feather angle) that’s best for your wrist, your rolls and your braces.

Personally, I dropped from about 60-degrees to 30-degrees after a bout of tennis elbow.

-Leon

[lhunt]

...My apologies for some of the leading questions trying to draw out what made sense to me...

Questions are always good - this is a hard one. This discussion had me out there today (in the rain) experimenting with feather angle, trying to figure it out. It's pretty subtle!

[leong]

Questions are always good - this is a hard one. This discussion had me out there today (in the rain) experimenting with feather angle, trying to figure it out. It's pretty subtle!

Here’s a good (I hope) article I just found on how to choose the feather angle to minimize wrist cocking. I like it because, in essence, it agrees with the conclusion that I posted as a result of my Rainy Day Feather-Angle Experiment a few years ago. Anyway, the article says that the optimal ergonomically chosen feather angle should be the same as the angle between the upper and lower arm (measured at the most powerful part of the stroke). If this theory is correct, it seems that you’d have to use a very low stroke if you want to use an unfeathered paddle. Hmm. Any comments from those of you who use completely unfeathered paddles? Do you rotate the paddle shaft? What do you think, Lisa? No, please, don’t go out in the rain again!

This other article I just read is basically correct. Except when the author states the following:

“the real question is WHY are paddles feathered. The old answer is that when one blade is in the water the other can slice through the air more efficiently. That's basically bunk - only true if the paddle is feathered at 90 deg and if the wind is at just the right direction.”

Speaking hyperbole: This statement about bunk is, er, bunk. As you dial up from an unfeathered paddle to a full 90 deg feather angle you get ever more air drag efficiency until it’s the most efficient at 90 deg.

[Phil Allen]

Ok Leon-

I'll entertainingly disagree with the two articles you cite above The first one makes sense only in the context of a left or right control hand. If the air hand mostly acts as to position the fulcrum of the paddle in 3space, then a high angle almost no feather paddle stroke works well. I think that's what Lisa confirmed in the rain.

And while you are in detail correct that a 90 degree feather will give the least amount of wind resistance when paddling directly into the wind, it would be absolutely the worst position for a cross wind. As everybody seems to agree that muscle memory is a significant factor with the efficiency of a particular feather angle folks won't change their feather angle for conditions and therefore the plus and minus contributions should average out.

Lastly,and unrelated to the two articles, while the forward stroke is much of what we do, particularly for those that race, it's not the only stroke I use on a daily basis. Having ~ zero feather makes my left and right side brace, my back paddle and my left and right hand rolls ~ symmetrical. That to me is a real plus in conditions.

best

Phil

(who still won't be able to keep up with you) ;-)

[lhunt]

I like the second article better. Different things for different people. Different strokes for different folks :-)

When I sit on the edge of a chair with an unfeathered paddle, torso straight forward and just move arms up and down like a whirlygig, I can see where the first guy gets his theory. He's only looking at one portion of the stroke, when the rotation has gone partially back (or he's not rotating at all, hard to tell, he never mentions it). When I do the chair experiment I can clearly see that the higher the paddle angle goes the more "off" the left blade is with respect to the plane of the "boat". That is, not facing straight back. Due, presumably, to mechanics of my arm and shoulder. It's a simple movement, so probably it's pretty much like that for everybody.

BUT, if you put some rotation to that "stroke", and measure the angle of the paddle to the plane of the boat when it enters the "water", everything changes. When I do it, a 0 degree feather works best. I assume it's because something in the torso rotation is compensating for the other stuff.

In real life there are even more variables. For example, the upper elbow is probably bent at least a little, which makes a big difference (Brent Reitz recommends using a high elbow he calls the "chicken wing" to get a good angle and avoid cocking the wrist). In real life I use a bigger feather angle, but I'm not sure why, which bothers me.

This discussion makes me want to do some more experimentation - I'm thinking that maybe my blade angle is is off during parts of the stroke. That would be a big efficiency problem. Hmm....

So I go back to saying, to determine feather angle first see if your wrist is cocking and fix the feather angle to deal with that. One good technique is to hold the paddle tight in both hands. If it's trying to slip in your off hand, you are probably cocking the other wrist. Unless you're doing the chicken wing :-)

That's all I got. It's a good summer project to work on.

[lhunt]

...Lastly,and unrelated to the two articles, while the forward stroke is much of what we do, particularly for those that race, it's not the only stroke I use on a daily basis. Having ~ zero feather makes my left and right side brace, my back paddle and my left and right hand rolls ~ symmetrical. That to me is a real plus in conditions.

(Previous replies crossed).

Yes, of course. We are talking about what the feather angle should be if you feather. But of course there are other reasons not to feather that are unrelated.

Lisa